Author Topic: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Corusca_One  641 posts
Registered: Oct '05
48803_11 - Rebel Dawn
Date Posted: 2/8/07 3:18pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
xoubara posted:
Corusca_One posted:
I quite like Denning's books but i have to agree about Kyp and Corran, although i think only Stackpole and Allston have ever really 'got' Corran, maybe Zahn too.


I found Greg Keyes' Corran to be a good one, too. Wasn't he?


I forgot Keyes doh!

 

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Froggy22651  321 posts
Registered: Jul '05
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 2/8/07 3:18pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Yeah, but the younglings didn't just torture and kill his mother.

 

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Ashandarei  1280 posts
Registered: Oct '04
44428_Arkoh Adasca
Date Posted: 2/8/07 3:20pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Froggy22651 posted:
Yeah, but the younglings didn't just torture and kill his mother.
Neither did the Tusken children.

 

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Froggy22651  321 posts
Registered: Jul '05
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 2/8/07 3:26pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Hmm, point taken. But it didn't seem to me like Anakin was flying off the handle when he marched into the temple. No, his attack on the Jedi Temple wasn't a crime of passion. He weighed his options, saw that they were limited, and chose what he saw as the best course of action. He wasn't in the best frame of mind when he made that decision, granted, but killing adult, armed, and fully-trained Jedi Knights in combat is one thing while murdering a bunch of kids is something else entirely.

But hey, that's just my interpretation. I could be wrong. He really could have just been a psycho with no redeeming features to speak of.

 

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Ataro_Soresu  360 posts
Registered: Apr '06
24100_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 2/8/07 3:59pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/8/07 4:01pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ataro_Soresu
Dizfactor, your analysis of the PT was eloquent and hilarious. I would agree 100% if we were taking the movies at face value. But, seeing as how this is the Lit forum, and I'm a SW geek, it is my sacred duty never to take anything at face value. And, whatever percentage of jest your post might have been, it's my duty to make the points I'm about to make.

There exist three pieces of work that contrast very sharply with this view of Anakin. They're called The Phantom Menace by Terry Brooks, Attack of the Clones by R.A. Salvatore, and Revenge of the Sith by Matthew Stover.

A very interesting picture you paint...the Council only allowing Anakin to be trained to serve as their Sith-killing machine. From a certain point of view, it's very true. However, your portrayal of Anakin as an outcast among the Jedi is erroneous. Obviously, they were uneasy with his advanced age and the problems that imposed on his training...his already-formed attachments, his mind being open to fear and aggression. No doubt they were a little jealous of his abilities, as well. Some surely must have viewed him with suspicion and unease, and it didn't help matters when Palpatine effectively appointed him to the Council. Certainly, he butted heads with Mace Windu and probably a couple others. But there is no evidence that he was an outcast....there is quite a bit to the contrary.

The Council shows confidence in Anakin's abilities, sending him on a mission alone while still a Padawan. When Anakin needs advice, he is admitted straight away to the private quarters of no less than the Grand Master. Yoda's advice is sage and gentle, and he doesn't pry. It's the best an old monk can offer, because all his experience is dealing with clear-minded Temple-rats and little to no experience dealing with hot-tempered, rebellious child prodigies. In LOE, it makes mention that Anakin teaches saber classes for younger students. When he returns to the Temple in ROTS, he receives a warm, friendly greeting at the door from Shaak Tii, right up to the moment he puts his blade in her stomach.

Anakin might have been viewed with suspicion by some, but it's clear that he was far from an outcast. And it's clear to me from the novelizations that the Anakin of George Lucas's scripts was a good-natured guy who let his pride, his temper, and his overblown feelings of abandonment get the better of him. And with the help of some clever manipulation by the galaxy's most devious Sith Lord, those traits ate away at the good man until there was very little left.

When you say Obi-Wan "sort of liked him, felt sorry for him," are you conveniently overlooking that by ROTS, the two had developed a bond as close as brothers? Even if you just weren't feeling it on the screen (I did, but I know some didn't), the novelization makes it crystal. Not only did he flat-out refuse to give up on or sacrifice Obi-Wan, he always wanted to save everyone, not even wanting to leave his clone troops behind. The reference is somewhat brief in the movie--you might have missed it--but, again, it's discussed at great length in the text. Obi-Wan, Mace, and Yoda talk about it, and Obi-Wan points it out as one of his distinctly un-Jedi-like traits...he loves those close to him dearly, so dearly that he'll do anything to protect them. And you know where that leads.

You may fault Lucas's direction, his numerous cuts, or Christensen's performance; but when it comes to the writing, Lucas does indeed "get" Anakin. (It would be hard for him not to.) Perhaps the authors show it better than the films, but it's most certainly not an idea Stover or Salvatore came up with on their own. I refuse to believe the inherent good in Anakin is something Lucas doesn't understand, seeing as how it's one of the central themes of the entire saga.

Oh, and I can hear the cries now. But he's a baby killer! He slaughtered that whole village of poor, defenseless headhunters! Woo-dee-doo-dah. Maybe a jury of his peers would sentence him to eternal madness beyond death in a tomb on Korriban. I, for one, will attempt to hold on to the naive belief in redemption. So, maybe, just maybe, if I ever have to kill your children to save the thing I love the most, I can keep my fingers crossed.

wink

 

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BobaMatt  14519 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: Aug '02
47935_Luke Skywalker - Dark Side
Date Posted: 2/8/07 4:49pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Froggy22651 posted:
To BobaMatt: You're making the assumption that Anakin trusts Palpatine completely.

All the evidence we've ever been given says he did, at least until Padme's death.
Lord_Hydronium posted:
BobaMatt posted:
It makes sense - and given Ben's earlier characterizations in the DNT, not inconsistent - that Ben's clinging to Jacen. Psychological complexities and nuances should not necessarily be left out of SW.

That isn't the problem. He's like that in Betrayal too. The problem is that Ben's relationship to his parents as established in Betrayal was entirely missing from Bloodlines; not just that, but the Ben we got in Bloodlines was practically the complete opposite in that respect. Betrayal Ben, when he was in a bad situation, sought out his parent's advice and took it to heart. Bloodlines Ben thought to himself that he'd never talk to his father when he had a problem. Betrayal Ben has a close relationship, Bloodlines a distant and resentful one. And what's more, it's not even that Bloodlines treated it as if it was a personality change that had happened in the last couple days; Luke and Ben's thoughts tell us that it's always been like this.

It's not an issue of character development; rather important aspects of the Betrayal character were completely overwritten.

Well that's not your problem with Ben, but it's a lot of peoples' problem. As for his relationship to his parents, I believe that he only turned away from them when they openly turned on Jacen. In addition, the problems he sees in Bloodlines aren't like the things he sees in Betrayal. Ben knows what his parents will say, already, he's just unsure of where he himself stands. You never kept anything from your parents?

 

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MistrX  1520 posts
Registered: Jun '06
14536_Wedge Antilles
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:29pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Froggy22651 posted:

At the end of the movie, Padme says there's still good in him. I'd like to have seen some evidence of this.




He does still care about Padme to some extent.

Ashandarei posted:
She's already used at least one Dark-sided power that I can think of. She has touched the Dark side. Granted, that was years after the Emperor's death, but ...


Well, if you believe Kyle, the powers themselves aren't inherently dark or light. It's just how you use them. That is, of course, just their justification in Jedi Academy for letting you pick the DS powers and still remain a good little Jedi. But still, would you really ever doubt Kyle? wink

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:29pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/8/07 5:32pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
I always took Anakin as a man who willingly embraced evil. A man whom consciously said "I know this is wrong, cruel, evil, and monstrous. I do this because it's either the Jedi Knights or me."

If he lets them escape then he'll die at Palpatine's hands and the Stormtroopers are ordered to kill every Jedi down to the last padawan. Revenge of the Sith's novelization makes it clear Palpatine ordered them killed too.

I also never saw the Council's position on Anakin as Uniform. Tru, his best friend at the Temple, came to hate him and other masters never trusted him. Mace Windu was always suspicious of his relationship with Palpatine.

On the other hand, Obi Wan and Barriss Offee came to think of Anakin as just a slightly over emotional Jedi even during the AOTC years. There's also the Padawan Pack whom clearly knew Anakin and thought of him as a friend despite his late training.

 

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BobaMatt  14519 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: Aug '02
47935_Luke Skywalker - Dark Side
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:38pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/8/07 5:42pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BobaMatt
Charlemagne19 posted:
I always took Anakin as a man who willingly embraced evil. A man whom consciously said "I know this is wrong, cruel, evil, and monstrous. I do this because it's either the Jedi Knights or me."

Yeah, but the films and the EU don't really take that approach.

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"..."I'm stronger than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him"..."Obi-Wan's holding me back"..."Please Grampa Palpy help me save Padme. The Jedi don't trust me"...etc etc.

 

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Ashandarei  1280 posts
Registered: Oct '04
44428_Arkoh Adasca
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:43pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
MistrX posted:
Well, if you believe Kyle, the powers themselves aren't inherently dark or light. It's just how you use them. That is, of course, just their justification in Jedi Academy for letting you pick the DS powers and still remain a good little Jedi. But still, would you really ever doubt Kyle? wink
I don't believe Kyle, and I pronounce anathema on you for even speaking of that heretical view. Begone from the sight of the Light. shame_on_you

 

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Ulicus  7359 posts
Registered: Jul '05
41990_Duron Qel-Droma
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:45pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/8/07 5:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
After collapsing to his knees, Anakin embraces the dark side.

One more time:

Anakin embraces to the dark side.

That's not the same thing as getting angry, or unconsciously drawing upon it every now and again - that's a conscious decision to let unparalleled evil into your soul. In that instant he became a mockery of everything he ever stood for.

Yoda:Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.

Bastila Shan: The dark side is not simply giving in to anger or temptation to use the Force to destructive ends. These things only lead to the dark side. The dark side grows stronger and more insidious the closer you draw to it. It begs you to surrender to it, to release all its terrible power... and it becomes harder and harder to resist. And once you stop resisting, it is too late. It twists you up inside and... and turns you into a mockery of everything you once stood for.

Anakin falls to his knees and crawls towards the Dark Lord of the Sith, seeking his power... I'd say he stopped resisting.

 

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An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense.
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000  4729 posts
Registered: Oct '05
41423_Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:46pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Pretty much everyone: Lando

Pretty much everyone besides Denning, including Lucas: Threepio

 

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MistrX  1520 posts
Registered: Jun '06
14536_Wedge Antilles
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:51pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
I didn't know it was possible to screw Threepio up.

 

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Havac  14250 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:53pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Allston gets Threepio. Remember him talking with YVH-11A?

And Luceno got some nice musings on mortality in there. They treated him with respect, I think, and got him as well as Denning, certainly.

 

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iamobiwan1970  2222 posts
Registered: Aug '05
16486_Kyp Durron
Date Posted: 2/8/07 5:54pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
NJO Stackpole books made Corran look like Luke's best friend and Kyp look like a Sith! Honestly, I like Corran best when not written by Stackpole!

Jude Watson created a great Obiwan as a kid, but her Anakin was always held in suspect no matter what he did!!! Heck, he could have saved a transport filled with younglings and it would be twisted to say he did it wrong somehow!!!!!

 

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