Author Topic: Characters that certain authors don't get.
LtNOWIS  2480 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 2/8/07 11:49pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Charlemagne19 posted:

The people are immaterial if the order is wiped out.

The Mandalorian farmers association can continue fine with the Mandalorians as mecha riding guys in battlesuits being no more.

Of course, the Death Watch survived and we know that some of the Super Commandoes did too.



That is indeed an important distinction. Some people were saying that due to Galidraan, there shouldn't be any more mandos until Imperial times. But I would say that the people themselves are definitely not immaterial, especially since central order is rather limited in this era. Even if they aren't all trained soldiers, than the disparate clans certainly have a level of military skill. So there's no reason why they can't still form a fighting force if need be, at any given date in history. It would be like if the Special Forces of the US Army got decimated. Definitely a major setback, but not the end.

Of course, it's really late here, so what I just said might not make any sense.

Charlemagne19 posted:
Havac posted:

Never use "Mandalorian" and "mecha" in the same sentence again. Thank you. peace


Eventually, we'll see one flying a Giant Man Shaped Robot.

Mark my Words!



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wing_blast_rocket_pack

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Star-Wars-Transformers-Jango-Slave/dp/B000JNG6BK

 

-----signature-----
A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lord_Hydronium  6295 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 2/8/07 11:50pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
BobaMatt posted:
Well that's not your problem with Ben, but it's a lot of peoples' problem. As for his relationship to his parents, I believe that he only turned away from them when they openly turned on Jacen. In addition, the problems he sees in Bloodlines aren't like the things he sees in Betrayal. Ben knows what his parents will say, already, he's just unsure of where he himself stands. You never kept anything from your parents?

From his first scene in Bloodlines (incidentally, right after the silly "Ben envies the Mandalorians" passage):
Ben posted:
[Jacen said,] "Some of the things we'll talk about have to be kept between us, but that's the way with military matters. Are you ready for that?"

As if he would discuss anything with his father. He wasn't even comfortable discussing some things with his mother these days.

So it's not about the things he does later, it's not after Luke and Mara start pulling away from Jacen, it's not even about any specific problem; this passage would have us believe that Ben just doesn't communicate with his father.

Little bits about Ben resenting his father pop up all around it too, something that just sprang up since Betrayal. And I can't find it at the moment, but there's a thought from Luke later to the extent that Ben has been distant from him for some time.

 

-----signature-----
Great midis have little midis
Swimming round inside 'em
And little midis have lesser midis
And so ad infinitum.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Mayor_Adam_West  265 posts
Registered: Aug '06
40052_Darth Nihilus
Date Posted: 2/8/07 11:52pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/8/07 11:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mayor_Adam_West
Ashandarei posted:
Mandalorian Gundams.


Jedi in gundams would be even better. They'd be like newtypes. hypnotized

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/8/07 11:58pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
LtNOWIS posted:


That is indeed an important distinction. Some people were saying that due to Galidraan, there shouldn't be any more mandos until Imperial times. But I would say that the people themselves are definitely not immaterial, especially since central order is rather limited in this era. Even if they aren't all trained soldiers, than the disparate clans certainly have a level of military skill. So there's no reason why they can't still form a fighting force if need be, at any given date in history. It would be like if the Special Forces of the US Army got decimated. Definitely a major setback, but not the end.

Of course, it's really late here, so what I just said might not make any sense.



No, that's actually fairly what the current canon looks like.

Lightsaber of Speculation---purple instead of red

I tend to think that the Farmers and so on were Mandalorian culturally but not actually trained in fighting in the old ways. Jaster and the Death Watch's fight destroyed pretty much the last remnants of the Mandalorian "Warrior Caste" that had been on the decline since the last Sith War less due to being annihilated in battle than simply having corruption, mercenary attitudes, and cynicism creep into their ranks.

Certainly, Mandalorian SOLDIERS existed at that point like Skirata but the Armor Wearing ones had been scattered across the universe with none really remaining whom could come together to unite them anymore. For a very brief time, Mandalorians as we knew them ceased to be an order and instead just became individual warriors.

Spar changed that by the fact that he was blood linked to Jango Fett and claiming to be his legitimate son. His small battleforce was all that he could train in Armor-fighting because most of them were NOT Armored warriors. It was ceremonial at best.

Then he lost most of his soldiers and like his predecessors, left them adrift again until Fenn.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Carnage04  4916 posts
Registered: Mar '05
43718_Darth Nihl
Date Posted: 2/9/07 12:04am Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
BobaMatt posted:
Mandalorians have a lot more non-Mandalorian Mandalorians (crap, I hate this) than the Samurai had non-Japanese Samurai.


It occurs to me that the KoToR era Mandos did not "Settle" places as it seems the current Mandos do. Am I mistaken in this Impression? If I am not mistaken, at what point do they go from Mercenaries out to conquer to an agrarian society that happens to have some great fighters amongst them? Right after KoToR? Concord Dawn? Somewhere in between?

Carnage

 

-----signature-----
Carnage
I Finally decided to use a signature after 3500 posts!
3500 posts * 7 Characters = 24500 keystrokes wasted
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/9/07 12:07am Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Carnage04 posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Mandalorians have a lot more non-Mandalorian Mandalorians (crap, I hate this) than the Samurai had non-Japanese Samurai.


It occurs to me that the KoToR era Mandos did not "Settle" places as it seems the current Mandos do. Am I mistaken in this Impression? If I am not mistaken, at what point do they go from Mercenaries out to conquer to an agrarian society that happens to have some great fighters amongst them? Right after KoToR? Concord Dawn? Somewhere in between?

Carnage


I think it was a case of "conquer" and "interbreed"

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
BobaMatt  14573 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: Aug '02
47935_Luke Skywalker - Dark Side
Date Posted: 2/9/07 3:23am Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Since the Taung settled on Mandalore, I believe, there were Mandalorians actually living and being civilized. There were the Mandalorian people...and then there was the Mandalorian mercenary army that was roaming the galaxy karking shavit up. It's kind of like how there were Norse people...and then there were Vikings.

 

-----signature-----
DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP
http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11
As Father and Son (An AU RP)
http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/9/07 4:26am Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
BobaMatt posted:
Since the Taung settled on Mandalore, I believe, there were Mandalorians actually living and being civilized. There were the Mandalorian people...and then there was the Mandalorian mercenary army that was roaming the galaxy karking shavit up. It's kind of like how there were Norse people...and then there were Vikings.


Probably the best we'll ever get from it. Their warrior tradition is a proud part of who they are but not EVERYTHING they are, with plenty of part time soldiers probably existing beside professional soldiers with every Mandalorian recieving some combat training.

I confess I still like my original idea but this is what Traviss did.

The only problem is there's no way to retcon the various Mandalorian extinctions. Nor was the Death Watch vs. Super Commandos an all encompassing fight.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kenobi_Kid  1810 posts
Registered: May '05
6455_Ewan the Prankster
Date Posted: 2/9/07 6:28am Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Charlemagne19 posted:
I confess I still like my original idea but this is what Traviss did.
I like the Viking idea better. happy

Charlemagne19 posted:
The only problem is there's no way to retcon the various Mandalorian extinctions.
Sure there is. "The reports of their demise were greatly exaggerated..." wink

 

-----signature-----
High Prophet of the Church of Kyle and loyal suitor of HIH Marasiah Fel
Star Wars: Now with 100% more Lyle Waggoner!
Lick enough wallpaper and eventually you will find the Snozzberry
I have seen the enemy and he is you
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
BobaMatt  14573 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: Aug '02
47935_Luke Skywalker - Dark Side
Date Posted: 2/9/07 6:41am Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/9/07 6:45am (1 edits total) Edited By: BobaMatt
Yeah, the Viking thing is the best option because, from the earliest days, there's always been a planet called Mandalore, and we can assume there are people living there. The organization known as "Mandalorians" however, is not limited to people from Mandalore, and should perhaps be thought of as a militant organization whose roots lie on Mandalore. The distinction is subtle, but effective, I think: it provides for the cultural ties, but widens the gap between the average farmer, his supercommando cousin, and his cousin's Togorian buddy. Hardened soldiers and glory seekers the galaxy over head to Mandalore to become Mandalorian soldiers.

 

-----signature-----
DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP
http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11
As Father and Son (An AU RP)
http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Ambassador Cara Jade  10021 posts
Registered: Oct '99
46283_SW Weekends - Aurra Sing
Date Posted: 2/10/07 5:24pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Kevin J. Anderson doesn't get most of the characters, but I blame him directly for the destructions of Callista. She began as a brave, strong courageous Jedi in the hands of Barbara Hambly, which KJA took and immediately **** on, thus destroying her due to his more accessible and simpler writing style. The only thing that saved her was Planet of Twlight, which most people didn't even like, sadly.

 

-----signature-----
Yeah, I have my own icon. cool
Visit the Callista Fans Thread
http://boards.theforce.net/eu_community/b10194/23653771/p1
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Carnage04  4916 posts
Registered: Mar '05
43718_Darth Nihl
Date Posted: 2/10/07 7:15pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
BobaMatt posted:
Since the Taung settled on Mandalore, I believe, there were Mandalorians actually living and being civilized. There were the Mandalorian people...and then there was the Mandalorian mercenary army that was roaming the galaxy karking shavit up. It's kind of like how there were Norse people...and then there were Vikings.


Is everyone that lives on Mandalore a "Mandalorian"? I mean it in the sense that The Gungans live on Naboo, but "Gungans no like the Naboo"...

I always thought Mandalorians were all Human/Mostly human types and suddenly we have Twi'lek Mandos and such. It's hard to tell if we are talking a heritage, a common planet of birth, a way of life, membership to a club....

I guess I'm just one of those jerks that doesn't like something because he doesn't understand it. It just seems that Mandos get redefined by whatever is convienient to the plot at the time. "They are rampaging warriors! No! They are a small agricultural community that needs a leader! No! They are a small band of mercenaries! No! They are anyone who speaks mando!"

Carnage

 

-----signature-----
Carnage
I Finally decided to use a signature after 3500 posts!
3500 posts * 7 Characters = 24500 keystrokes wasted
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Charlemagne19  26816 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/10/07 7:21pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Carnage04 posted:
I always thought Mandalorians were all Human/Mostly human types and suddenly we have Twi'lek Mandos and such. It's hard to tell if we are talking a heritage, a common planet of birth, a way of life, membership to a club....


It's why I differentiate Mandalorians and Super Commandoes.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 2/10/07 7:58pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
Carnage04 posted:
It just seems that Mandos get redefined by whatever is convienient to the plot at the time. "They are rampaging warriors! No! They are a small agricultural community that needs a leader! No! They are a small band of mercenaries! No! They are anyone who speaks mando!"
To be fair, their society has changed a lot over the centuries, pretty drastically at times, and in any case it would be easily to get mixed signals considering that the only Mandalorians most people ever interact with are the heavily-armoured mercs, bounty hunters, Death Watch, Supercommandos and so forth.

 

-----signature-----
Fey'la was right! Bring Asyr Sei'lar to justice!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
MagnusPrimal  111 posts
Registered: Jan '06
8174_Luke and Mara
Date Posted: 2/10/07 9:54pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
dizfactor posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
Jude Watson: Anakin Skywalker is not a puppy torturing psychopath before Episode III.


Perhaps in AOTC, you missed his crazed and irrational outbursts, his thoroughly creepy (*cough* stalker *cough*) obsession with Padme, and that little incident where he happens to massacre an entire village. You know, the one time he's left entirely alone, with no supervision and no real chance of repercussions. If character, as they say, is who you are when no one's watching, than Anakin's an unhinged, bloodthirsty maniac.

I'm sorry, I can't blame any EU authors who came after AOTC for portraying Anakin as a deranged psychopath with few redeeming values, if any, because the Anakin Lucas gave us was a deranged psychopath with few redeeming values, if any.

The ones who worked between the releases of Episodes I and II have no real excuse for portraying him that way, but since their portrayals ended up coinciding with the way he was portrayed later, it all worked out.

Kwenn posted:
Unfortunately, pretty much every Anakin story, possibly bar that Episode I Adventures comic, has him doing something that's a little on the dark side.


Which is entirely consistent with the only real time Lucas showed us his vision of an adult, supposedly "light side" Anakin.

Kwenn posted:
Where's the heroic friend Obi-Wan remembered,


Obi-Wan's looking at the past through rose-colored glasses, and I would argue that it's because he's avoiding dealing with his own culpability and that of the Jedi Council in creating Vader.

The Jedi Council is like a coach who pushes steroids on their star athlete and pretend not to notice the health problems they're causing him. Anakin's like Dirk Diggler in Boogie Nights - used until he falls apart by an organization that only really cares about him because he's so well-endowed.

They all knew Anakin was a nutcase. They had to. None of them really liked him, none of them trusted him. They had deep reservations about his commitment to the Jedi Code, to his suitability for training. Obi-Wan kind of liked him, kind of felt responsible/sorry for him, and so he made excuses for him, and the others just turned up their noses a little but let things slide.

Why? Because of the midichlorians in his blood, because the Sith had returned, because of the prophecy, and ultimately because of the war.

They were using him. He was a dangerous loose cannon, and they tolerated it because they wanted him to be their weapon against the Sith. They just did the cold, hard math and concluded that they needed him on their side.

And, you know, once the war started, he was just so damn good at killing things they needed killed. As I've said before, the only problem is that once the war was over, he didn't stop killing, and the tool that the Jedi created was used against them.

I mean, look at the account of the Jedi Council meeting from the Clone Wars cartoon when they decide what to do with him. A few members of the Council worry that he hasn't been adequately tested, and specifically, that he hasn't faced the Dark Side within himself, but ultimately their concerns are hand-waved away.

You know why? Because they knew in their hearts that he would fail the test, but they didn't want to admit it to themselves, because if they admitted it to themselves, they'd have to stop using him in battle.

And we know that the whole Council meeting was a sham anyway, a rubber stamp on a decision that had already been made privately by Yoda and Mace Windu. And what prompted them to make that decision? Anakin's performance in the Battle of Praesitlyn - because of his prowess in battle.

There is no story of Anakin's fall. Anakin was never "up" to begin with. The Jedi are the ones who fall, because they are increasingly blind to the degree to which they are willing to cut corners and use unethical means towards what they (increasingly falsely) believe to be just ends.

If the OT is a story about the triumph of humanism and compassion over the military industrial complex, the prequels are the story of the road to Hell being paved with good intentions, specifically of the tendency to tolerate the atrocities and moral shortcomings of one's own side in the name of some nebulous higher purpose. They're so focused on fighting for the Republic that they barely notice that it's already the Empire in all but name. They're so focused on fighting against the Sith that they don't notice that they're actually fighting for them ("To fight the empire is to be infected by its derangement" and all that). And they're so willing to ignore the cancer eating through Anakin Skywalker because he's so damn useful to them that it ultimately consumes them too.

You could say they use Anakin despite the obvious dangers because it seems like the easy way to accomplish what they want. He seems like a powerful tool but really, the solution he presents is only quicker, easier, more seductive...

Kwenn posted:
or the striking, grand figure who took in life with a wink that Anakin himself recalls at the end of his life?


I'm sure that's how he thought of himself. Idi Amin thought he was a pretty suave guy, too.


Very nice post. Made me rethink a few things.
And I wondered if anyone else thought *Stalker!* regarding Anakin in AoTC.

 

-----signature-----
If it makes you happy, then why the hell are you so sad?
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History