Author Topic: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
Ris_jSarek  2541 posts
Registered: Feb '05
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Date Posted: 4/26/07 6:37pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
dp4m posted:
Ris_jSarek posted:
Except, umm, the evidence I posted? And McEwok's evidence regarding other languages in contact with Basic (which, to be fair, did come after your post)?


You both posted supposition.

Not canon.

Difference.


Aurebesh spells out English words, and they call it Basic. That's canon.

 

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Rogue_Follower  8534 posts
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Date Posted: 4/26/07 6:46pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not? - Date Edited: 4/26/07 6:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
It also spells out gibberish in RotJ, which is also canon. wink

Either way, I think its debatable. One could go so far as to argue that Basic text is translated into English, but left in the Aurebesh "font." But you do have a point... thinking

 

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Ris_jSarek  2541 posts
Registered: Feb '05
18187_Z-95 Headhunter
Date Posted: 4/26/07 7:41pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
Rogue_Follower posted:
It also spells out gibberish in RotJ, which is also canon. wink


Was it in RotJ? I'm not recalling it there. I know it was in ESB in the AT-AT controls, but once we got a standard translation for Aurebesh characters, I always assumed that that was either a military code readable by the crews, or a real-time view of Imperial encryption and/or decryption programs in action.

Rogue_Follower posted:
Either way, I think its debatable. One could go so far as to argue that Basic text is translated into English, but left in the Aurebesh "font." But you do have a point... thinking


I think that's an awful stretch. Working from the suspension-of-disbelief viewpoint, what would be the point of translating into English, then transliterating *back* into Aurebesh, for an audience that can't read Aurebesh?

And then McEwok's question of cognates in Huttese, Olys Corellisi, and other languages remains unaddressed, as well, unless you're creatively rewriting *every other language* to match up with the translation from Galactic Basic to English.

 

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Thrawn McEwok  13599 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
43231_Chiss Ewok
Date Posted: 4/26/07 7:49pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
dp4m posted:
A good example is The Hunt for Red October.

The Russians are clearly speaking Russian, but McTiernan switches their language over to English for us (the English-speakers) the understand mid-scene until they meet up with actual Americans, at which point they switch back to Russian until speaking actually in English.

happy


Using as a switch-point a word that's the same in both languages ("Armageddon"; which is a subtle point on the "balance of terror"). There's also a question of whether the Oppenheimer quote is in English and Zampolit Putin deliberately shifts...

The same technique is used, probably as a deliberate reference, in Star Trek VI (where the switch word is "obsolete", if memory serves); but here, again, the Klingons may be shifting deliberately into Fedagonaase...

dp4m posted:
Ris_jSarek posted:
Except, umm, the evidence I posted? And McEwok's evidence regarding other languages in contact with Basic (which, to be fair, did come after your post)?


You both posted supposition.

Not canon.

Difference.


raised_brow

Thrawn McEwok posted:
Is Galactic Basic really English?


Question.

Thrawn McEwok posted:
As jSarek said, there's quite a lot of information suggesting that it is.


This is a fact.

Thrawn McEwok posted:
To this, we can add what are clearly English-linked words in other Star Wars languages - "outman" (Huttese for "foreigner"), for example...

This is canon.

Thrawn McEwok posted:
Either it's English, or it's a language relatively closely related to English... or, it might be that the entire series has been "translated" in a way resembling Tolkien.


Range of possible interpretations. Can you suggest any more...?

[quote=Thrawn McEwok]Try not to think about it? raised_brow tongue

- The Imperial Ewok


Suggestion.

Where are the "suppositions"?

And I'm interested in the idea that there are French references in Y:DR, raised by EJA; I'd not noticed that, but Mara uses sans in The Final Prophecy, and spells Sabre in the French (or British English) way in the name of her ship, Jade Sabre, while Shadows of the Empire makes use of the title "M." rather than "Mr.", which in the real world means Monsieur...

Do you just mean the family name "Malreaux" and "Chateau Malreaux"? We have Scout's surname, Enwandung-Esterhazy...

Now these aren't just words, they're names...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

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Rogue_Follower  8534 posts
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Date Posted: 4/26/07 8:09pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
Ris_jSarek posted:
Rogue_Follower posted:
It also spells out gibberish in RotJ, which is also canon. wink


Was it in RotJ? I'm not recalling it there. I know it was in ESB in the AT-AT controls, but once we got a standard translation for Aurebesh characters, I always assumed that that was either a military code readable by the crews, or a real-time view of Imperial encryption and/or decryption programs in action.



Yep, its there.



The SWTC has a whole page on the topic.

 

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Lord_Hydronium  6273 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 4/26/07 8:21pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
Ris_jSarek posted:
Lord_Hydronium posted:
And the nonexistence of "consecrate" in Basic is evidence against.


The passage to which you refer makes no sense no matter how you look at it. How could a species which speaks with bird calls use the word "consecrate," either? As Abel once said in an email to me on this very topic, "Maybe Voren was just up very late and hadn't had his coffee when he translated the myth. tongue "

Sure it makes sense. Both are translated from their respective languages into English. The same phenomenon occurs explicitly in the NJO. Nom Anor and another (don't remember who) discuss the definition of the Basic word "mercy", and how it cannot be translated into the Vong language. They're speaking in English and "mercy" is in English, yet context shows that the word isn't being translated into their language.

Ris_jSarek posted:
And then McEwok's question of cognates in Huttese, Olys Corellisi, and other languages remains unaddressed, as well, unless you're creatively rewriting *every other language* to match up with the translation from Galactic Basic to English.

Tolkien did. Well, at least the languages where this would occur (for example, "translating" Rohirric into Old English).

 

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SephyCloneNo15  6880 posts
Registered: Apr '05
8068_R5-D4
Date Posted: 4/26/07 9:29pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
SuperWatto posted:
It was translated, put to celluloid, videotape, and dvd.
Or are DVDs canon, too?


George got 'better' at translating the story that the Whills gave him, written in Basic.

In 1977, he thought the Whills told him Han shot first.

In '97(?), he realized his translation error, and fixed it to the more accurate version that claims Greedo shot first.

Then, as the DVDs were getting ready, he finally grasped the 'correct' translation, which describes Han and Greedo shooting at exactly the same moment.

Ris_jSarek posted:
The Aurebesh writing in Star Wars, when read, exactly duplicates English. THAT'S something they don't do in movies - they either don't translate writing at all, they subtitle it, or they directly translate it into English in the Latin alphabet. They *don't* phonetically spell out English words in the foreign alphabet.


George is just ahead of his time. cool

 

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GrandAdmiralJello  59900 posts
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Date Posted: 4/27/07 12:24am Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
jSarek: Aurebush only spells out English words in TPM and onward--in the OT, the words on the screen were simply gibberish--as they were meant to be.

The story is being presented to us "in translation"--and as these things go, there are good translations and there are bad translations. A good translation of The Iliad into English will not only translate the words, but translate the rhyme and meter of the poem to make sense in English. A poor translation will not do these things.

Some SW sources are translated well, some are translated poorly. That's how it goes.

Your statement that Basic is English violates a fundamental rule of SW canon--Earth doesn't exist. Therefore, English doesn't either. It is absolutely and positively impossible for them to be speaking English, no matter how many coincidences or similarities you can find.

 

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Sikon  907 posts
Registered: Mar '06
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Date Posted: 4/27/07 1:27am Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
GrandAdmiralJello posted:

Your statement that Basic is English violates a fundamental rule of SW canon--Earth doesn't exist.
First of all, this isn't a fundamental rule of SW canon, it isn't a rule of SW canon at all. For all we know, Earth may exist, just in another galaxy.

And I don't see how Earth's non-existence in another galaxy prevents this galaxy from developing a language that just happens to be identical to English. After all, they do have Humans, who evolved independently.

 

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GrandAdmiralJello  59900 posts
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Date Posted: 4/27/07 1:58am Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
Answer: Suspension of disbelief and principle of parsimony.

 

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EJA 
Registered: Apr '07
Date Posted: 4/27/07 2:03am Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
I still reckon the distant ancestors of the humans in the SW galaxy originated on Earth, and were transplanted to planets like Coruscant by aliens.

As interesting as all these theories that Basic is just translated into English are, has anyone thought about my idea that some unknown beings have manipulated the growth of language in the GFFA so that Basic has many similarities with modern English? Current Basic is said to be descended from non-human languages like Durese and Bothese, so they would have to have been directed by these guys - whoever they are - as well. I realise it's a bit far-fetched, but I'd like to know what people think.

 

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SuperWatto  5871 posts
Registered: Sep '00
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Date Posted: 4/27/07 6:56am Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
EJA... Though I admire your determination... happy let it go. It's simply impossible. No language stays the same for a long period of time. As such, KOTOR Basic and movie Basic cannot be the same language. So it just has to be a transcription.

 

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Rogue_Follower  8534 posts
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Date Posted: 4/27/07 8:13am Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
I would argue that, though. In a galaxy that has had hyperspace travel for tens of thousands of years (even as of KotOR), the language probably wouldn't change as much as our English has changed from, say, the 1500s. Standardization of communication is key in a pan-galactic society, and Basic is that standardization. Yes, it probably has changed and adapted, but I don't think it'd be that much.

 

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TalonCard  7489 posts
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Date Posted: 4/27/07 1:34pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
>Lucas is not the genius that Douglas Adams was, why is it that nearly no one else in the fantasy/sci-fi genre has invented their own version of the Babel Fish?<

The Vong have them.

I think the whole "everyone's speaking English, most of the time" convention is one that has to be accepted to some extent when dealing with sci-fi franchises. SW does a better job of it than certain other-franchises-with-star-in-their-titles that shall remain nameless, but it if you analyze it too much, it stops making sense.

TC

 

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RogueWompRat  4444 posts
Registered: Feb '03
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Date Posted: 4/27/07 2:13pm Subject: RE: Galactic Basic Standard = English or not?
It can't be English. That's impossible.

 

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