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Topic:
What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/21 7:14pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Ulicus posted:
Adam_Bosman posted:
Dark Nest makes a disclaimer (don't remember which book or page), that the clone emperor was merely a shell of the true Palpatine...not the true Palpatine. A shadow is how I like to think of him. We know the clones were sabotaged, and the reborn Emperor was probably significantly weaker than the real Emperor.
It was Betrayal, IIRC, and what Lumiya said was absolute nonsense.
"The Clone Emperor" was THE Emperor in a Clone Body. That seems to have escaped LFL as of late. It wasn't the Emperor's memories and skills that were "downloaded", it was the Emperor himself. His Immortal spirit.
As of late, darksiders haven't been able to preserve their immortal spirits.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:26am
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
As of late, darksiders haven't been able to preserve their immortal spirits.
But we've seen time and again that they can, regardless of Spirit!Qui-Gon's opinion of the matter.
You raise a good point, however. I realise that LFL probably want to move away from situations where Sith achieve "immortality" to better mesh with Lucas' intentions (as of RotS) but if that's the case then they shouldn't reference Dark Empire. Or, at the very least, they should release a "special edition" with new/edited scenes and dialog that does things differently.
I could even get behind that.
The fact of the matter is that, as Dark Empire stands, there's no way to interpret the Emperor as a "clone with a downloaded skillset". He is the Emperor.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/22 8:13am
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Ulicus posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
As of late, darksiders haven't been able to preserve their immortal spirits.
But we've seen time and again that they can, regardless of Spirit!Qui-Gon's opinion of the matter.
You raise a good point, however. I realise that LFL probably want to move away from situations where Sith achieve "immortality" to better mesh with Lucas' intentions (as of RotS) but if that's the case then they shouldn't reference Dark Empire. Or, at the very least, they should release a "special edition" with new/edited scenes and dialog that does things differently.
I could even get behind that.
The fact of the matter is that, as Dark Empire stands, there's no way to interpret the Emperor as a "clone with a downloaded skillset". He is the Emperor.
That's not entirely true man. Qui-Gon's opinion is G-canon because it's what GL was getting at. Only Jedi can do THAT. Sith, on the other hand, have always appeared to tie their spirits to some sort of object. Zahn's pet theory for Luke's musings on how Obi-Wan and Yoda could be visible to him after their deaths became the means by which we see Sith and dark Jedi do such things. Their tombs, corpses, amulets, Sith temples. We've never seen Sith ghosts do quite the same thing that Jedi spirits have.
More importantly, don't we have something saying that Palpatine tied his spirit to one of his inner circle and that dude went to Byss where he could jump to a clone body?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/22 4:04pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Ulicus posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
As of late, darksiders haven't been able to preserve their immortal spirits.
But we've seen time and again that they can, regardless of Spirit!Qui-Gon's opinion of the matter.
You raise a good point, however. I realise that LFL probably want to move away from situations where Sith achieve "immortality" to better mesh with Lucas' intentions (as of RotS)
It certainly seems that way in Betrayal, at least:
“Now I’m merely a ghost. Or perhaps less.”
“What would be less?”
“A remnant. A sliver of a ghost.” He looked just a bit unsettled. “Even as I speak, I am unaware of myself. Of thinking, of decision-making. Could I, in fact, be nothing?”
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 4:39pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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That's because he's a phantom generated by the asteroid's dark side field, not an actual ghost of anybody. The Vectivus projection has as much to do with Sith spirit mechanics as the Luke projection/phantom in the same book has to do with Force ghost mechanics.
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Jodus
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:20pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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well look at his body hopping as the same as attaching his spirit to an object. Thats basically all he is doing. The trick is that Palps spirit takes over from the hosts body. The use of clones was likely just that it was much easier than taking over the body of an inhabited one. If it was made concrete that Palps had died before Endor to test his skills, then I'm sure he would have tried a weak spirited body to try. As it stands, his form of immortality does not contradict what Qui-gon said. He is not attempting immortality in the force. He is perverting the whole system by converting another physical form. Dark siders cannot gain immortality in the force because of how they use it, for themselves. But the method of attaching a spirit to an object, or in this case, another body, circumvents the force, and gives the force user, a perverted form of immortality.
I believe completely it is the Emperor himself, of coures. Otherwise the depth of the story would not be as strong and Luke and co. would not be in such peril. I'm sure if Luke were to face the Emperor, decide he's not legit, he wouldn't have knelt before him. Hell I doubt the Dark Side Adepts would have followed if the Emperor was merely a clone. The whole basis for the stories feeling of impending peril for the NR is that it IS Palpatine. If you had to make a story based on SW when the world hadn't seen much in the way of SW for a while, what better way to make a threat than to bring back the cackling villain that had the galaxy under his boot for decades. Sure Palps wasn't "subtle" anymore, but he didn't really have to be. It was war, he was taking back what was his from the NR and the Warlords, and anyone else who thought they were free from his service.
I liked the story, I can imagine how scared the NR high command would be when they saw his evil smiling face, back from the grave. I do not feel it hurts Anakins story at all, not that i cared about it anyway when I was reading DE. Anakin fell, committed atrocities, and was redeemed by his son. He wiped out the dark side that had been oppressing the galaxy and gave it a chance to rebuild. Lets face it, at ROTJ, Luke wasn't ready to face the Emperor, he wasn't strong enough. But at the time of DE, Luke is able to hold his own and face down the Emperor. As of DE, there were Jedi again ready to face the threat that the Emperor posed (ok not many, but better than the time of the OT).
I appreciated the art as well when I got into it, Cam Kennedy's style is very unique (I even noticed it when he did a Punisher arc years later), it just makes illuminates the areas that were so gritty and dark. I would love to see DE redone with the artwork that Kennedy has done in recent years. His comic of Fett: Agent of Doom, had such brilliant colours,but it still had the monochromatic style in places.
There will always be pieces of work that people don't like, thats fine. But DE did happen 
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:23pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Dawud786 posted:
That's not entirely true man. Qui-Gon's opinion is G-canon because it's what GL was getting at. Only Jedi can do THAT. Sith, on the other hand, have always appeared to tie their spirits to some sort of object. Zahn's pet theory for Luke's musings on how Obi-Wan and Yoda could be visible to him after their deaths became the means by which we see Sith and dark Jedi do such things. Their tombs, corpses, amulets, Sith temples. We've never seen Sith ghosts do quite the same thing that Jedi spirits have.
I'm aware of the differences, certainly. You can't tell me, however, that the average Joe is going to see much difference between Qui-Gon living on after death as a spirit and Marka Ragnos doing the "same" - regardless of the fact that Ragnos:
A) Can be destroyed, whereas Qui-Gon probably can't
B) Is anchored to a specific object
I think it's also likely that Lucas' intention is for it to be impossible for the "non-compassionate" to survive past death in any form.
Dawud786 posted:
More importantly, don't we have something saying that Palpatine tied his spirit to one of his inner circle and that dude went to Byss where he could jump to a clone body?
I recall something along those lines, yes.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:27pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Yes, to Jeng Droga, one of his Hands.
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_Catherine_
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:47pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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I don't think Jeng Droga was actually at Endor, though, was he? So Palpatine actively had to go find him between his body dying and his spirit going to Chaos.
Also, concerning the "anchor" theory, did anyone ever figure out how Freedon Nadd's ghost could appear all over the galaxy, apparently including two different planets at the same moment?
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 6:56pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Droga was piloting the Emperor's personal yacht over the planet of Kaal. So, no, he wasn't nearby. But one could argue that, with Palpatine's connection to his Hands being what it was, in Force terms it was like they were right next door.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
6/22 9:44pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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_Catherine_ posted:
I don't think Jeng Droga was actually at Endor, though, was he? So Palpatine actively had to go find him between his body dying and his spirit going to Chaos.
Also, concerning the "anchor" theory, did anyone ever figure out how Freedon Nadd's ghost could appear all over the galaxy, apparently including two different planets at the same moment?
My pet theory is that Freedon Nadd sort of spread out his anchors to various objects in his possession. Amulets, books, his own corpse, people even. He appeared to Ulic from an amulet, I mean, it literally looks like he's rising from it. Same with Exar Kun and Nadd's corpse on Dxun. With the Ketos I'm thinking he forged a connection to them when they were on Onderon that enabled him to contact them.
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blackmyron
Registered:
Oct '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 10:57pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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My (admittedly fan) theory is that the Sith spirits and Jedi spirits are two separately entities. The Jedi spirits are those who manage to find a way to avoid completely becoming "one with the Force" to guide those still living. The Sith spirits are dead Sith that are desperately trying to avoid falling into Chaos forever and possibly live again. So it isn't really "immortality", than an attempt to desperately stave off a "final death". This way, you still preserve what Vader did (kill Sidious) and later interpretations of the Emperor Reborn (he was a "shell" of Palpatine). He was, essentially, a Sith spirit going from clone to clone and eventually trying to "rebirth" through Anakin Solo based on the advice of a group of Sith spirits.
Palpatine's earlier life transferences to clone bodies wouldn't be the same because he was moving almost instantaneously from one live body to another.
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sithreaper
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
6/23 5:11am
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Jedi Ben posted:
sithreaper posted:
It annuls the chosen one prophecy.
I am so tired of reading this and any other sentence like it when DE was published 1991-1992 and likely written 1990 (work started earlier than that even), years before the PT existed in any concrete form!
What’s your point? It still annuls the chosen one prophecy
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 12:29pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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That's sortof like saying the Great Depression annulls the Oil Crisis of the 1970s. It's not the comic's fault George didn't tell anybody what was up.
And frankl,y it doesn't annull the prophecy if you look at it. Anakin's whole point was bringing balance to the Force-which he did; it's never out of balance again. The Dark Side is obviously not dominant in DE, or for that matter, at any point after ROTJ.
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rumsmuggler
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 12:58pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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blackmyron posted:
My (admittedly fan) theory is that the Sith spirits and Jedi spirits are two separately entities. The Jedi spirits are those who manage to find a way to avoid completely becoming "one with the Force" to guide those still living. The Sith spirits are dead Sith that are desperately trying to avoid falling into Chaos forever and possibly live again. So it isn't really "immortality", than an attempt to desperately stave off a "final death". This way, you still preserve what Vader did (kill Sidious) and later interpretations of the Emperor Reborn (he was a "shell" of Palpatine). He was, essentially, a Sith spirit going from clone to clone and eventually trying to "rebirth" through Anakin Solo based on the advice of a group of Sith spirits.
Palpatine's earlier life transferences to clone bodies wouldn't be the same because he was moving almost instantaneously from one live body to another.
I would love to see an infinities or parallel universe Dark Empire where Palps managed to take over Anakin Solo and was spirited away by his darksiders to grow and cause all sorts of hell to the good guys. Palps in a body with Skywalker blood flowing through his veins would be an insanely powerful and dangerous enemy.
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