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Topic:
What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:25pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Sithreaper,
DarthBoba's answered your Q, along the same lines I would but better.
As to Palpatine's transferring from clone to clone there seems to be a need for him to be near to the clone he goes into. What happened at Endor was utterly unexpected and cataclysmic. We also know the Dark Lords of the Sith on Korriban took a hand in guiding him to Byss so he could inhabit a clone.
As to the point about Sith versus Jedi Ghosts, I see everything the Sith embody to be the defiance of any rule or body that hinders them, thus they see any way to defy death as fine, no matter how twisted, unnatural or perverted it may be. I find it hard to credit that anyone could not see the difference between the Jedi and Sith view, nor how one could rank the Sith as being better.
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Howe: Why?
Castle: So they can't walk away. So they can't
profit from the pain they've caused.....
Howe: And no second chances...
Castle: I don't do redemption.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:25pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
- Date Edited:
6/23 2:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SuperWatto
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Sinrebirth should come over here... Find some likeminded spirits... This place is chock full of Canon Apologists!
Everybody, get off your high horses... I did.
+
+ There's something to be said for the "annulling of the Prophecy". Apart from the balance, this was about destroying the Sith, right? Well? Were the Sith destroyed?
+ He had a Galaxy Gun that could blow up planets through hyperspace for crying out loud. And what did the rebs have? Some buried lightsabers. Some balance. If anyone really fulfilled the prophecy, it was Han or Empatajapatapatos.
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- DE was not the first comic to bring the Sith back into play.
- The Emperor wasn't the absolute power in the galaxy.
We can keep going on about this, as we have done - but in the end, it's somewhere in the middle. Which is why it's such a hot item.
The idea that it's wrong to fault this comic for something decided years later is bogus, though. Movies trump the EU in terms of canonicity, as we've been taught. Well, had DE said Darth Vader was born on Klatooine, that woulda been proven wrong, no? Just plain wrong. If it had said that Luke and Leia had another brother, it would have been shown to be outright wrong, as well, no? So why is it a problem if people bring this up? The fact that they didn't change it in subsequent releases is not an indicator of it being right. Has any novel or comic ever undergone this drastic a retcon? No. So you might say, well, something as important as THIS, they'd change! And I'll say, who's they? The flanelled one? He just said that in his universe, the Emperor doesn't come back to life!
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:37pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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SuperWatto posted:
The idea that it's wrong to fault this comic for something decided years later is bogus, though. Movies trump the EU in terms of canonicity, as we've been taught. Well, had DE said Darth Vader was born on Klatooine, that woulda been proven wrong, no? Just plain wrong. If it had said that Luke and Leia had another brother, it would have been shown to be outright wrong, as well, no? So why is it a problem if people bring this up? The fact that they didn't change it in subsequent releases is not an indicator of it being right. Has any novel or comic ever undergone this drastic a retcon? No. So you might say, well, something as important as THIS, they'd change! And I'll say, who's they? The flanelled one? He just said that in his universe, the Emperor doesn't come back to life!
Yeah, but if we put every Lucas quote next to each other, the result is going to be, at best, incoherence, if not out-right contradiction.
The big problem for you Watto is that DE has NOT been changed and it isn't as if there's no precedent for altering comic material in one way or another, as in the case of Infinite Crisis. IF this was the big deal you assert it to be, it would have already been changed, not remain the same some 4 years after ROTS.
-----signature-----
Howe: Why?
Castle: So they can't walk away. So they can't
profit from the pain they've caused.....
Howe: And no second chances...
Castle: I don't do redemption.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:40pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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I'm not saying it's a big deal. I'm saying it's somewhere in the middle.
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Sinrebirth
Title: Hierarch and Chancellor of EUCity
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:40pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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SuperWatto posted:
Sinrebirth should come over here... Find some likeminded spirits... This place is chock full of Canon Apologists!
I did. Nobody responded. 
-----signature-----
Sey's Sinre  The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:45pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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You're right! 
But that's a pretty weak argument, too, Sin. It's basically: Ani was the Chosen One because he fathered Luke and Leia. Then Shmi could be the Chosen One.
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:48pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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SuperWatto posted:
I'm not saying it's a big deal. I'm saying it's somewhere in the middle.
In which case, no one cares. That's life, heigh ho....
-----signature-----
Howe: Why?
Castle: So they can't walk away. So they can't
profit from the pain they've caused.....
Howe: And no second chances...
Castle: I don't do redemption.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/23 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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People care, alright. It's just that they care differently...
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srd2k7
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
6/23 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Sinrebirth posted:
Arguably, no. The Empire held a quarter of the Galaxy before the Emperor became a pushing force in the galaxy. By his final death, they conquered more than half of it, and even then, after Byss and Onderon, the Empire held a third of the galaxy. But that's not the point - such military and logical points can be countered by the Empire not having hardly any Star Destroyers left (probably less than 500), or the NR being severely reduced, etc, etc, etc.
The Chosen One was the only thing which could counter the Ultimate Sith.
Without Anakin Skywalker, Darth Sidious would have come about and crushed all democracy. It's that simple. Without Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi would never have had Luke and Leia to save the Galaxy from Sidious Reborn. Without Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi would never have had the opportunity to learn from a thousand years of arrogance. Without Anakin Skywalker, the New Jedi Order would never have had the foresight to prepare a Hidden Jedi Temple and survive the One Sith.
Because they would never have survived Darth Sidious.
Yoda, the culmination of the Jedi Order after a millennium, lost. Darth Sidious, the culmination of the Sith Order after a millennium, won. Was there another Jedi in the galaxy - or even on the horizon - who could have made a difference to that?
Darth Sidious survived death.
And was beaten by Anakin Skywalker's children.
The Sith survived Endor.
And have been soundly beaten by Luke, Leia and Jaina.
The Sith may last forever.
But they will never get as close as they did under Sidious.
The Jedi will always win, and by various margins, yes, but the One Sith are never going to be as dangerous as Sidious. Their means for taking over the galaxy were incredibly unsubtle - they conquered it. Sidious was given it.
Sinrebirth, this is the best rationalization of The Clone Emperor and Prophecy discrepancy. Thank you.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/26 9:06am
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
- Date Edited:
6/26 9:06am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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SuperWatto posted:
Movies trump the EU in terms of canonicity, as we've been taught.
But do we ever see it work that way, in practice, without Canon Retcon Apologia setting in, other than in the obvious Clone Wars timeline errors?
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/5 9:26pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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SuperWatto posted:
DE was not the first comic to bring the Sith back into play.
It wasn't? In the post-ROTJ time frame, I mean?
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/5 10:04pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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Marvel had Flint and Lumiya, both Vader's apprentices.
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Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
7/5 11:14pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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SuperWatto posted:
+ There's something to be said for the "annulling of the Prophecy". Apart from the balance, this was about destroying the Sith, right?
Wrong. The Jedi assumed it was about destroying the Sith, and from a CPOV, it was. Kinda. Certain Sith, anyway.
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Sinrebirth
Title: Hierarch and Chancellor of EUCity
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
7/6 3:48am
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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SuperWatto posted:
You're right!
But that's a pretty weak argument, too, Sin. It's basically: Ani was the Chosen One because he fathered Luke and Leia. Then Shmi could be the Chosen One.
I don't believe I'm saying that. I think I'm saying Ani was the Chosen One because he came about to defeat Darth Sidious - the most powerful and dangerous Sith in history - no Sith have proven as dangerous. I doubt Caedus was as powerful.
The Sith have been defeated, fundamentally they'll never get that close every again.
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Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
7/6 12:43pm
Subject:
RE: What are your thoughts on Dark Empire?
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That's pretty much the way I read it, too. Never before Darth Sidious, and never after his first death, have the Sith really held in their hands the possibility of eternal rule over a galaxy held in the thrall of the dark side. In short, of actual lasting success. Because of the Chosen One, that opportunity was thwarted, and the Sith will forever be limited to momentary successes that fade against the assault of the forces of good.
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Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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