Author Topic: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
Tricky  5342 posts
Registered: Jul '01
43253_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:09pm Subject: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
I had re-read the RotS novel like last month & I don't remember Matt Stover writing in any kind of hesitation or even asking why from the Clonetroopers when Order 66 came down & they were to kill the Jedi. Now I'm re-reading Dark Lord & see Climber's Clonetrooper squad react to the Order as if it's a suggestion instead of a genetically ingrained automatic response like how it seemed in the RotS film.

Has there been any other instances in the EU where Clonetroopers have refused or questioned why they should go ahead with Order 66? What is the right way for the Clonetroopers to react when given the Order, like robots that must follow orders or like regular human soldiers that like the Jedi but might just have to kill them?

Does anyone think that the Nulls & ARC's will unquestioningly turn on the Jedi & outright slaughter them?

 

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dp4m  36459 posts
Registered: Nov '01
13878_Luke Skywalker Dark Empire
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:29pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
Tricky posted:
I had re-read the RotS novel like last month & I don't remember Matt Stover writing in any kind of hesitation or even asking why from the Clonetroopers when Order 66 came down & they were to kill the Jedi. Now I'm re-reading Dark Lord & see Climber's Clonetrooper squad react to the Order as if it's a suggestion instead of a genetically ingrained automatic response like how it seemed in the RotS film.

Has there been any other instances in the EU where Clonetroopers have refused or questioned why they should go ahead with Order 66? What is the right way for the Clonetroopers to react when given the Order, like robots that must follow orders or like regular human soldiers that like the Jedi but might just have to kill them?

Does anyone think that the Nulls & ARC's will unquestioningly turn on the Jedi & outright slaughter them?


I believe, though I don't recall, that the squad in Dark Lord was listed as the only Clonetrooper unit to disobey the order. So not that out of the question.

 

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Rogue_Follower  8534 posts
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6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:30pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord? - Date Edited: 8/28/07 2:33pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
Order 66 is not a genetic command, its... an order, and as far as we know a legal one. At least, this is the way its been treated in the EU. I never got the the impression from the film that it was some sort of programmed command, but maybe that's just me.

Though, there are still some plot holes surrounding it, since we really don't know how the clones knew to address Palpatine as "my lord", and why it came in using CIS encryption. thinking

 

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dp4m  36459 posts
Registered: Nov '01
13878_Luke Skywalker Dark Empire
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:35pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
Rogue_Follower posted:
Order 66 is not a genetic command, its... an order, and as far as we know a legal one. At least, this is the way its been treated in the EU. I never got the the impression from the film that it was some sort of programmed command, but maybe that's just me.

Though, there are still some plot holes surrounding it, since we really don't know how the clones knew to address Palpatine as "my lord", and why it came in using CIS encryption. thinking


To be fair... do we know it for certain WASN'T a genetic command? wink

 

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Rogue_Follower  8534 posts
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6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:45pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
To be fair, no. wink

However, authors have treated it as just a simple order. Karen Traviss in particular has emphasized that it wasn't some sort of brainwashing. Granted, she should be taken with a grain of salt since she hasn't really written much on Order 66 to canonize her angle on it, and her discussions on the matter aren't canon, but I agree with her assertations that Order 66 could have happened without any sort of genetic tampering. Dark Lord provides canon, if anecdotal, evidence that at least some clones could choose not to follow through with the order. And the RotS novel seems to agree that it was not programming as well, since Cody's response to the order does not seem to be robotic at all---he grumbles about having given Kenobi back his weapon.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10326 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:46pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord? - Date Edited: 8/28/07 2:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
dp4m posted:
Rogue_Follower posted:
Order 66 is not a genetic command, its... an order, and as far as we know a legal one. At least, this is the way its been treated in the EU. I never got the the impression from the film that it was some sort of programmed command, but maybe that's just me.

Though, there are still some plot holes surrounding it, since we really don't know how the clones knew to address Palpatine as "my lord", and why it came in using CIS encryption. thinking


To be fair... do we know it for certain WASN'T a genetic command? wink


For one thing, Dark Lord says so. whistling Also, Order 66 being a genetic command would mean Kaminoan complicity in the plot, which ( if it were the case ) would be an important enough plot point that it would have been shown in at least one actual scene in AOTC or ROTS.

 

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Grey1  1709 posts
Registered: Nov '00
8038_Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:50pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
Wait - it's in question that this is a genetic command? plain

The movie I saw had the clones go from happy buddy to killing machine faster than any normal soldier would go. We also don't see clone faces after Order 66 anymore - the clones have finally become a faceless tool.

I mean, maybe I'm out of the loop or something. I think the Commando disobeyance was explained through the clone commandos' relative independence compared to normal troopers (being closer to the original Jango). The theory was that an ARC trooper would be completely unaware of Order 66's siginificance, which fits nicely with a new generation of commanders being bred to take the place of the ARCs. Commandos would be acting based on personal character. There's a CW adventures story in which a squad acts without hesitation (which could always be retconned as "exaggerated retelling through child's eyes" wink ), but I got the impression that the DL squad would need to act differently as it had stronger bonds to their Jedi general.

BTW, I think it struck me when reading DL that the squad in question never actually receives the trigger words "Order 66". The orders only state that the Jedi must be killed, and when they question the orders, the only reply is that it's the chancellor's orders. Still, no number. Or am I wrong about that? I don't have the novel at hand...

 

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ARC-77  712 posts
Registered: Mar '06
40696_Jaster Mereel
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:51pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord? - Date Edited: 8/28/07 2:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ARC-77
dp4m posted:
Rogue_Follower posted:
Order 66 is not a genetic command, its... an order, and as far as we know a legal one. At least, this is the way its been treated in the EU. I never got the the impression from the film that it was some sort of programmed command, but maybe that's just me.

Though, there are still some plot holes surrounding it, since we really don't know how the clones knew to address Palpatine as "my lord", and why it came in using CIS encryption. thinking


To be fair... do we know it for certain WASN'T a genetic command? wink


Actually, we do. In the GGAR, I'm fairly certain it was stated not to be genetically "programmed," but just that the clones are strongly reinforced to follow all orders. Karen Traviss has stated as much numerous times, too, on this board, IIRC.

As for why the squad of commandoes didn't obey the command outright, Republic Commandoes are given different training, and were encouraged to think creatively and act independently. They often picked up habits from their instructors, too, and a particularly rebellious one could easily have influeneced Climber's squad.

 

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Arawn_Fenn  10326 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:53pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
Rogue_Follower posted:
To be fair, no. wink

However, authors have treated it as just a simple order. Karen Traviss in particular has emphasized that it wasn't some sort of brainwashing. Granted, she should be taken with a grain of salt since she hasn't really written much on Order 66 to canonize her angle on it, and her discussions on the matter aren't canon


I thought Triple Zero said or implied something about it. Wouldn't Traviss be at the same canon level as other books?

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Arawn_Fenn  10326 posts
Registered: Jul '04
46079_Darth Plagueis
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:56pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
Grey1 posted:
BTW, I think it struck me when reading DL that the squad in question never actually receives the trigger words "Order 66". The orders only state that the Jedi must be killed, and when they question the orders, the only reply is that it's the chancellor's orders. Still, no number. Or am I wrong about that? I don't have the novel at hand...


Well, I think we can assume the commander (Salvo) got the actual order, then it seems it was relayed to the squad without a number.

 

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Jedi Ben  9344 posts
Registered: Jul '99
23785_James Bond Jedi
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:56pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
The clones were built to be complient to orders and had Order 66 hardwired in, but it was not totally effective in 100% of the cases, in a very, very select minority it could be resisted.

There, how's that for a fix?

JB

 

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Rogue_Follower  8534 posts
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6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 8/28/07 2:57pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
Traviss' books are at the same level, yes, but her personal opinion and statements on the matter are not. Same with any author. Except perhaps Lucas. tongue

 

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Grey1  1709 posts
Registered: Nov '00
8038_Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 8/28/07 3:01pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
ARC-77 posted:
Actually, we do. In the GGAR, I'm fairly certain it was stated not to be genetically "programmed," but just that the clones are strongly reinforced to follow all orders. Karen Traviss has stated as much numerous times, too, on this board, IIRC.
I guess Ms. Travis would be one of the first to disapprove of a plot point that actually would prove the clones to not be normal human beings but tools. I hope it's evident that I don't mean that in a disrespectful way.

BTW, how would the clone army know about the implications of a hypothetical Order 66 if the Jedi generals are obviously quite surprised by the sheer existence of a plan to destroy them?

Arawn_Fenn posted:
Also, Order 66 being a genetic command would mean Kaminoan complicity in the plot, which ( if it were the case ) would be an important enough plot point that it would have been shown in at least one actual scene in AOTC or ROTS.
Come one, the movies have a gaping plot hole wide enough to fly the Death Star through when it comes to the "cloning issue". Luceno had to mop the floor in Labyrinth of Evil, to clear up all the points that wouldn't be answered in ep3 right before ep3 came out. I guess that the regular audience still doesn't know why the clones suddenly followed Palpatine instead of Obi-Wan. Not that it cares.

Plus, the Kaminoans seem amoral enough to not question any strange requests for hidden backup orders.

 

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ARC-77  712 posts
Registered: Mar '06
40696_Jaster Mereel
Date Posted: 8/28/07 3:02pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
I've got the relevant page from the Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic right with me.

GGAR on Order 66 posted:
Records salvaged from Kamino show that no genetic coding was used to implant obedience to this order. The efficiency with whcih this order was carried out was due to a genetic predisposition to be highly disciplined--and so to follow orders--that was developed and reinforced by rigorous training.

The clones were trained to put their personal feelings, fears, and needs aside and to obey their superiors instantly--training familiar to soldiers throughout history. That made them the most efficient army in the galaxy. Ironically, it also sealed the fate of their Jedi commanders.


Like it or not, no genetic coding is canon.

 

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Grey1  1709 posts
Registered: Nov '00
8038_Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 8/28/07 3:03pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord? - Date Edited: 8/28/07 3:04pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Grey1
double post, strangely enough...

I'll use this space to say that this is another case of canon not making any sense for me. I guess I'll just ignore in Happy Elf Land where I live...

Move along, move along...

 

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Nobody145  2147 posts
Registered: Feb '07
42495_Zayne Carrick
Date Posted: 8/28/07 3:07pm Subject: RE: Is it a plot hole that Clonetroopers disobeyed Order 66 in Dark Lord?
I don't have a copy of the book on-hand, but if I remember right, the clones in question never actually heard "Order 66". A higher-ranking clone just told them "kill the Jedi," which seems really shocking to them, so they try to come up with reasons, like maybe the Seperatists have cracked Republic codes and are sending false orders. So they decide to let the Jedi go until they can figure out what's going on.

Although I don't think they were ordinary clone troopers, but were they actual ARCs? I can't remember. In the movie, Cody wasn't an ARC, so no hesistation when receiving an order from his Commander in Chief. Although in the book, he didn't hesitate either, only a complaint about "great, now Kenobi has his lightsaber" as he knows from personal experience how hard it is to kill Obi-wan Kenobi.

And I'm not sure the Kaminoans would find anything wrong with that order, as I think the Wookie mentions that they're really clueless on human thoughts?

Though Order 66 had to be given in advance somewhere at sometime to the clones, given that they all knew what it meant.

Have there been any ARC appearances post RotS, by the way? I know there were a lot of new clone commanders, who were somewhere between a normal obedient clone trooper and a more independent ARC. Too bad Alpha is probably stuck in continuity limbo with Ventress.

Oh yeah, has there been any canon explanation yet for why by the time of the original trilogy, there are less clones around?

 

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