Jedi Council Forums - Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)

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Author	Topic: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
dp4m Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 8/29/07 1:51pm Subject: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	Because some of you still -- STILL -- seem to not believe the canon, here you go: "Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begin to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyps's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma." - JATS (p. 49) "Only the death of Exar Kun breaks spell that holds Kyp in thrall to the shade of the ancient Sith Lord." - JATS (p. 36) "Possessed by the dark side... Luke's students at the Jedi Academy were able to defeat the dark spirit of Exar Kun, freeing Kyp from that terrible grip." - SW.com Databank If someone can find me one counter-source which indicates that Kyp was in his right-mind and not a) possessed, b) in thrall or c) under control of someone else (all words used by canonical sources to describe Kyp Durron and Exar Kun) then you have some canonical leg to stand on. Annnnnnnnnd.... go. -----signature----- "Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman "Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 8/29/07 1:56pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	People prefer to think Kyp is a monster because they hate Jedi. Of course, I don't make it easy by being especially harsh on Caridans since trying to turn the planet into this Alderaan like victim goes so utterly against what the planet is depicted as that its hard to take seriously.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:00pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	d4pm, Charles, Prepare yourselves for a load of Corran Horn quotes from I, Jedi. That'll be where the counters come from. One Q that raises its head though is: The effect of mass deaths upon light/dark side Force-users? We know Kenobi was affected by the destruction of Alderaan, as were Leia and the students by the destruction of Carida yet what of the effect upon Vader, Palpatine and Kyp? It would seem, so long as they are in the dark side, none. Then we have New Rebellion's claim that deaths actually fuel the dark side. In which case you've a rationale for Kun's actions whilst in charge of Kyp. Power up then let rip! JB -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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s65horsey Title: EUC and Arena Moddess Go Colts! Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:01pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	Awesome, totally awesome. It won't stop them from whining and ignoring canon though. for the effort. -----signature----- Corran Horn is mine. Get used to it. One of Hammer's Angels Has reverted to being a 14 yr old. YAY JOBROS and TWILIGHT! Just laugh at it.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:04pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	I took it as the fact that Kyp Durron is being influenced by Exar Kun for his own purposes. Exar Kun wants to turn Kyp Durron to the Dark Side but unlike Palpatine, Exar Kun doesn't really have any problem with using outright mind control to corrupt people. He removes Kyp Durron's inhbitions and also increases his overall feelings of hatred. I always felt that Corran Horn was an idiot for assuming that Exar Kun wanted to kill Luke Skywalker with Kyp though. I assumed that Kyp either was... A. Trying to kill Luke but his soul left his body, so Kyp thought he was dead. B. He drove Luke's soul out so Exar could inhabit it but Luke was guarding his body.
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dp4m Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:06pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	Jedi Ben posted: d4pm, Charles, Prepare yourselves for a load of Corran Horn quotes from I, Jedi. That'll be where the counters come from. Any quotes from I, Jedi would be from a character-POV. Not from the narration, AFAIK. -----signature----- "Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman "Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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000 Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:09pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	dp4m posted: If someone can find me one counter-source which indicates that Kyp was in his right-mind and not a) possessed, b) in thrall or c) under control of someone else (all words used by canonical sources to describe Kyp Durron and Exar Kun) then you have some canonical leg to stand on. Um... how about the entire standoff with Han during CotF?
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:10pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	dp4m posted: Jedi Ben posted: d4pm, Charles, Prepare yourselves for a load of Corran Horn quotes from I, Jedi. That'll be where the counters come from. Any quotes from I, Jedi would be from a character-POV. Not from the narration, AFAIK. Well I sort of figured you'd have a defensive line prepared. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:30pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive) - Date Edited: 8/29/07 2:31pm (1 edits total) Edited By: dizfactor
	I think the fact that the only real responses here have been from the Kyp Durron apologists echo chamber goes to show you how hollow your arguments are. Trot out obscure references in outdated RPG sourcebooks all you like. People will make their own judgements. A number of sources describe Padme as being wise, strong-willed, or a good leader. That's not going to change the opinions of people who think she's a dimwit, and ultimately, most people don't have as literal or narrow an understanding of canon as you do. Your chapter-and-verse counter-argument is not going to satisfy those who are looking for a deeper level of analysis, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. You don't get any points for winning the argument no one's trying to have with you. It's masturbatory. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:34pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive) - Date Edited: 8/29/07 2:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedimarine
	Charlemagne19 posted: People prefer to think Kyp is a monster because they hate Jedi. Of course, I don't make it easy by being especially harsh on Caridans since trying to turn the planet into this Alderaan like victim goes so utterly against what the planet is depicted as that its hard to take seriously. I actually am generally a "Jedi Hater"...but I have always defended Kyp. Great Stuff, dp. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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dp4m Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:40pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	dizfactor posted: I think the fact that the only real responses here have been from the Kyp Durron apologists echo chamber goes to show you how hollow your arguments are. Trot out obscure references in outdated RPG sourcebooks all you like. People will make their own judgements. A number of sources describe Padme as being wise, strong-willed, or a good leader. That's not going to change the opinions of people who think she's a dimwit, and ultimately, most people don't have as literal or narrow an understanding of canon as you do. Your chapter-and-verse counter-argument is not going to satisfy those who are looking for a deeper level of analysis, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. You don't get any points for winning the argument no one's trying to have with you. It's masturbatory. Right, I don't really care what you think so much as you acknowledge that, canonically, you're incorrect. (not just you, really, but you're not alone in this line of thinking and it's getting more annoying to keep bringing this up each time someone maligns Kyp falsely; and he's not even in my like top-10 of favorite characters. ) -----signature----- "Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman "Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:47pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive) - Date Edited: 8/29/07 2:51pm (2 edits total) Edited By: dizfactor
	dp4m posted: Right, I don't really care what you think so much as you acknowledge that, canonically, you're incorrect. You can use canon to tell us what the party line is supposed to be, but you can't make us swallow it. You can use canon to resolve questions of fact (e.g. "Jango Fett did/did not kill Zam Wessell on Coruscant") but cannot adequately address issues of interpretation and meaning (e.g. "Jango Fett should/should not be considered a murderer"). The argument over whether or not we, the EU fans, judge Kyp Durron to be a war criminal, is not the same as whether or not canon sources tell us we should consider Kyp Durron a war criminal. Yes, all canon is equally canon, but whether or not something, especially something concerning subjective moral judgements, is canon is not the be-all end-all of reader's opinions. Ultimately, the meaning of any text is created jointly by the writer and the reader. The writer can tell you what he thinks the story is about, but people can and will and do and should take away different things from that. Whether or not Kyp Durron should be considered a mass murderer is, inherently, a situation where people are going to ultimately have to agree to disagree. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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000 Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:48pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	I really don't see how those quotes change anything, though. I don't think either I or anyone else has ever argued that Kyp was acting entirely on his own accord-- he was definitely influenced by Kun. He was influenced, though, in the same way that, say, Anakin was influenced by Palpatine-- there's no literal mind-control or possession or whatever at work.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:54pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	I agree with diz and Trip here--while we can use the evidence as starting points of a discussion, any sort of 'trial' involves synthesizing those with logic and reason. Yes, clearly Kyp was under the influence of Kun and the Dark Side. The question is--does that excuse him? Merely stating that he is not not his normal self does not constitute proof of innocence. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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dp4m Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 8/29/07 2:55pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive) - Date Edited: 8/29/07 2:56pm (1 edits total) Edited By: dp4m
	000 posted: I really don't see how those quotes change anything, though. I don't think either I or anyone else has ever argued that Kyp was acting entirely on his own accord-- he was definitely influenced by Kun. He was influenced, though, in the same way that, say, Anakin was influenced by Palpatine-- there's no literal mind-control or possession or whatever at work. That's what's wrong. Possessed, in thrall and under control. He had no more control over his actions than one of us does when our partner says "No, I think we're going shopping this weekend..." And diz, that's fair enough. But Kyp didn't perform those actions, Exar Kun did. -----signature----- "Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman "Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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RebelGrrl Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 8/29/07 3:01pm Subject: RE: Kyp Durron: Not A War Criminal or Murderer (Proof Positive)
	dp4m, I totally appreciate your points and entirely agree. What gets me the most is that those who proclaim Kyp a war criminal and the Destroyer of Worlds are utterly failing to consider how much better off the GFFA is for his continued existance. They fail to consider all the good he has done since that one spectacularly disastrous incident. When the kriff has Kyp Durron ever asked one single bloody thing for himself? EVER? When was his last selfish action? When has he done anything since JAT that he did not devoutly believe was for the good of the galaxy, even at great personal cost? He's the one Master of the eleven who are not named 'Skywalker' on the Council that will set out for Luke exactly what things are and will speak truth to power... not to antagonize Luke, but to help him. Somehow, I think that the good the guy has done and continues to do is exactly why Luke was right to get the New Republic to turn him back over to the Jedi. Nothing can ever replace the millions, not billions, of lives lost on his Dark Side rampage, but how many billion are still alive because Kyp Durron was there fighting for them? -----signature----- Well-behaved women seldom make history. You can't fix stupid and you can't reason with crazy. Happiness is a warm Hoojib!
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