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Topic:
The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue (Spoilers Allowed) (Announced!)
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WraithLead
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/18 8:23pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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I wasn't really trying to make a 'Bantam vs. Del Rey' discussion. I thought the thread had sorta morphed into a "What are you looking for from whoever gets the next books?" discussion, and i only brought up the stuff i did as it related to what i want from the future. Sorry.
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CardDreamer
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
5/18 8:30pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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WraithLead posted:
I must be in the minority on three things,
1. I had no problem with the LENGTH of the NJO series. I thought it had many, many flaws, but length wasn't one of them. Granted, it's hard to do, keep tidy, and remain organized with minor plots, too many characters et al...but if they had shown more discipline, not changed plans mid series, that could be avoided. The length of the series highlighted other areas, a depressing story arc included, but the length itself wasn't an issue to me.
Agreed. I didn't mind the length and I enjoyed how the focus shifted to different aspects. Really, is it any different than the Clone Wars? It's one War..., but every battle is a different perspective. The RC series, stand alones like Jedi Trial, MedStar, Cestus Deception, and then there's the ones with Anakin and Obi-Wan, Shatterpoint, Dark Rendezvous, etc. Every story is a small part of the large picture. That' show I look at the NJO.
WraithLead posted:
2. I actually liked the DN trilogy. I just did. It was a fun read, and well paced.
I LOVED the series. Every aspect.
WraithLead posted:
3...But seriously, I still stand by the "This is fine, but it ISN'T Star Wars' theme...Would you try to argue that ROTJ would have been the same if Lando and the Falcon died in the death star? Or maybe Han should have died during the prison escape in ANH. No? Then during what would definitely be considered a 'botched' raid on Endor? Certainly you would at least let Wicket, Threepio and Artoo meet some disastrous fate. That would have made the movies more 'realistic' too right? I mean, people DIE in war. It's the way of things. There's no way some kid would get behind the controls of a spaceship, make a 'one in a million' shot to take down a giant space base on his first flight, have a swashbuckling pirate discover morals and altruism in the nick of time and save the day with a sneak attack on the most skilled pilot in the arena, have the baddest guy in the galaxy discover that maybe he's not so evil after all...You see where I'm going, right?
Actually, wasn't Han Solo (in part by Harrison Ford's suggested) supposed to originally die at the end of RotJ until Lucas changed his mind at the last second? So I hardly think this is a "Del Rey" or reader mentality.
And while yes, I agree every story has its larger than life heroes, EVERY hero eventually meets their end. Captain Kirk (Star Trek) in Generations, Ripley in Aliens 3, Conner McLeod (Highlander) in Endgame, Neo (Matrix) in Revolution...
You see? There's always a last stand.
Even the OT had their heroic last stands/final moments. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Biggs (minor, I know, but you felt bad for Luke)...
WraithLead posted:
In the Bantam vs. Del Rey debate, I think that is why I pick Bantam. Del Rey is caught in a downward spiral. Can LOTF really be considered a 'win' for the good guys, or did they simply stop the catastrophe before ALL was lost and stop the hemorrhaging?
I think their more or less following the Prequel theme with their larger stories. I mean, we knew the Jedi were good and you knew their fate. That doesn't mean you didn't still root for them or enjoy the ride. Why can't that be reproduced?
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WraithLead
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/18 8:39pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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i don't want to get in trouble, so is this the right place to answer that post?
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Magnuskn
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/18 10:05pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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CardDreamer posted:
I think their more or less following the Prequel theme with their larger stories. I mean, we knew the Jedi were good and you knew their fate. That doesn't mean you didn't still root for them or enjoy the ride. Why can't that be reproduced?
Because everyone went into Episode 3 knowing what the outcome would be. Which, incidentally, made the first haf of the movie so much more painful... oh, if only the first two movies could have been like that first half of Episode 3. 
For an on-going series, which is supposed ( to my best knowledge ) to be open-ended, you normally want to build characters up for the future, not tear them down. Which is why I will never, ever understand how they could kill Anakin Solo, as he was such an excellent character. With Chewbacca, I understood it perfectly, as he was basically a mute strong man, standing always on the sidelines. But nowadays, they are dangerously close to whittling down the supporting cast of the big three to zero.
Who are left of the big heroes of the new generation? Jaina, Ben and Allana as main characters, Kyp, Corran, Tahiri and Jag as supporting characters. And a lot of minor background people. Either DR is planning on making the lesser supporting cast more important, or, if previous patterns persist, they will rather reduce them by killing off more of them.
Magnus
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CardDreamer
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
5/18 10:28pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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Magnuskn posted:
For an on-going series, which is supposed ( to my best knowledge ) to be open-ended, you normally want to build characters up for the future, not tear them down. Which is why I will never, ever understand how they could kill Anakin Solo, as he was such an excellent character. With Chewbacca, I understood it perfectly, as he was basically a mute strong man, standing always on the sidelines. But nowadays, they are dangerously close to whittling down the supporting cast of the big three to zero.
Is it truly that open ended? We already have Legacy comics set just 100 yrs later. The big three won't be around forever (as is already established). So, we know sooner or later, they have to go.
Yes, it's true that there's still so much to their lives left to live. they could live to 90, 100, maybe more. But even when/if they reach that age, what story can there be about a wheelchair bound Han or walking cane Leia?
And then there's the real world implications. As much as I love Star Wars and the EU. I don't see the franchise going on another 20, 40 years, do you? Sure, the movies might live on. And I'm sure future generations will enjoy what we have, but, it's just fact that, sooner or later, it's gonna fizzle. wouldn't it be a little nicer if authors could wrap up at LEAST the big three at some point so their story is closed?
But then there's the flip side. What if by some fluke Star Wars survives. The books do go on that long? The big three's era would most certainly become way too congested to write anymore and then what? They have to move on anyways. and when they do, they still gotta somehow end their story. So either way, you're danged if you do, danged if you don't.
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-thor-
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/19 3:07am
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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I've just finished the 17 pages of this thread and I feel compelled to answer. I agree that DelRey as publisher can't be blamed for what happened to the EU. Yes, the books published under its supervision have introduced "Doom'n'Gloom" into the EU, but that isn't a universal thing.
For example I am rather torn about DelRey's works. I came to the EU via the X-Wing novels and was a complete post-ROTJ reader. You couldn't get me to read OT or pre-OT books if you paid me for it. And nowadays? I really, really like what DelRey did to the PT and inter-trilogy timeframe - "Republic Commandos", "Labyrinth of Evil", "Cloak of Deception" (IMO the best political thriller in the SW universe), MedStar duology (Yes, I liked them!), ... Now I'm looking forward to the "Coruscant Nights" books and Traviss's "Order 66" (RC Volume 4) ...
BUT ...
I have absolutely no positive feelings for the NJO, DNT and especially LotF. None of them hold anything I could consider positive (and especially the latter series which I abandoned after two books). I don't know why, though. Allston created Wraith Squadron (my alltime favourites), Traviss wrote the RC novels ... it's not that these authors don't know how to write interesting books. But I never felt that LotF was anything but a half-*ssed attempt to milk the readers and fans of the famous characters. I didn't like the basic plot, the execution, the characterization ... nothing, nada, nichts, nitshevo!
I can't understand why the "quality" of the work is so drastically different between the early and late timeframe. It's not just perception on my part, there are too many things that bothered me right from the start. Did someone @ Lucas had its fingers in the pot or is it just the old saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth"? Did the authors run out of original ideas for the "famous characters" so that they had to resort to cheesy B-movie style villains (Vong), revive characters dead and buried for decades (Lumiya, Alema Rar, ...) and rehash the underlying PT-topic (evil Sith meddling in the background and a main character with less common sense than a Ratian Whisperfly)? I don't think so ... but it still happened. I wonder why? 
Bottom line for me: I will gladly buy "Coruscant Nights" and "Order 66", but anything after "Survivor's Quest" can rot in the shelves for all that I care. 
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vong333
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
5/19 5:57pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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-thor-, I understand how you feel, but the prequels in a way were dark. I mean when you look at TPM it was cheery and happy and even thing turned out good, but by the seocnd movie you could already tell that things were headed down south. The books was evident that it would get that way. They make good story telling though, but I just wish that they start getting somewhat away from the prequel way of things and bring new things into the mix. The clone wars isn't a new mix becuase when everything is said is done, it is only going to make ROTS much harder to watch becuase of the fall that Anakin makes.
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ATimson
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
5/19 7:07pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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-thor- posted:
I can't understand why the "quality" of the work is so drastically different between the early and late timeframe. It's not just perception on my part, there are too many things that bothered me right from the start.
A does not follow from B in the slightest. 
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TuskenTommy
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
5/19 8:27pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
- Date Edited:
5/19 8:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TuskenTommy
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Thor, sorry you fel that way man. Despite your feelings of the quality of NJO -till- now, you must feel some compasion or connection to Luke Skywalker & Han Solo right>? That's unfortunately why i'll take average -to- mediocre current timeline/story arc OVER a Bane book or a Clone Wars book about Clones killing droids and those stories etc. Sure i like it but no where near like i like reading about Jaina.. I'm just saying that surely ya like the current Luke Skywalker right? Thor you need some good quality back reading...What haven't you read bro? Or what have you read. I wanna see if can point ya to a couple hidden SW gems..If your a OG Veteran and have read everything than disregard..
-thor- posted:
I can't understand why the "quality" of the work is so drastically different between the early and late timeframe. It's not just perception on my part, there are too many things that bothered me right from the start.
A does not follow from B in the slightest.
----i think the high quality earlier like the Thrawn books & Courtship of Leia,,Academy trilogy, Allstons Wraiths & X-wing books etcetcetc is because they we're set in a ripe time in post ABY. Luke was still green as was the New republic etc. Where now the stories seem desperate. The Vong kind of story about unknown invaders who destroy all living and non(droids  ) can most likely be done only once, atleast on the magnitude of a 19 book run. IMO they did a great job w/ the creation of the Vong considering how unique they we're to say if the invaders we're like Barabels who we're carnivores or something. That whole organic technology twist was pretty brilliant if ya ask me....
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Sikon
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
5/19 8:30pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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-thor- posted:
nitshevo!
It's "nichego". (Pronounced "nichevo".)
-- A Russian
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/19 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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-thor- posted:
Did the authors run out of original ideas for the "famous characters" so that they had to resort to cheesy B-movie style villains
I see where you're coming from with your other points, but as far as this one, HAVE YOU SEEN THE MOVIES?
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-thor-
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/19 8:51pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
- Date Edited:
5/19 8:56pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
-thor-
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Just to clear up a misunderstanding - I was not talking about the quality of, say, Zahn's original Thrawn Trilogy vs the LotF books. I was talking about LotF/DNT vs PT books published by DelRey. This is where I see a drastic disparity in quality.
*shrugs* Doesn't matter now - I decided to declare NJO, DNT, LotF and beyond as extreme AU and banished it from my personal canon 
@ JKH - Sure I did, but I take them as they are. The PT doesn't reach the quality of the OT by far, but that has to do with the script and the basic plotline (which is kind of hard to understand in all details without the supporting literature). But when I took the NJO books into my hands in a bookstore I always thought, "What kind of crack junkie did come up with this?"
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/19 9:00pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
- Date Edited:
5/19 9:01pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Earthknight
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CardDreamer posted:
Actually, wasn't Han Solo (in part by Harrison Ford's suggested) supposed to originally die at the end of RotJ until Lucas changed his mind at the last second? So I hardly think this is a "Del Rey" or reader mentality.
And while yes, I agree every story has its larger than life heroes, EVERY hero eventually meets their end. Captain Kirk (Star Trek) in Generations, Ripley in Aliens 3, Conner McLeod (Highlander) in Endgame, Neo (Matrix) in Revolution...
You see? There's always a last stand.
Even the OT had their heroic last stands/final moments. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Biggs (minor, I know, but you felt bad for Luke)...
And notice how those films turned out. The films themselves were bad and then the film's saving grace gets killed off. Yeah, not good examples.
Probably would've helped out your case if you mentioned stuff from GOOD movies.
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Randy1012
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
5/19 9:27pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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Those specific characters' fates aren't what made those movies poor.
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/19 9:31pm
Subject:
RE: The next Novel Contract - Updates from Sue
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I know. That's why I said the films themselves were bad.
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