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Topic:
The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Robimus
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
3/25 4:43am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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So Mace Windu's attempt on Palpatine was the wrong thing to do, yet it would have saved the Republic, the Jedi and the Galaxy. I wish he would have run him through......
Luke's killing of Lumiya was completely justified for me. He couldn't let her fall and be sure it was done( See: Ventriss), so he pulled her up and whacked off her head. A poisen Sith dart is never far away for those who lower their guard.
Remind me again why a Jedi would want to let a Sith live? The Jedi of the Old Republic certainly had no pity on them and I don't see why Luke should. Hoth wanted to destroy the Brotherhood, Farfalla wanted to destroy Bane. Jedi compassion and goodwill is reserved for those who deserve it. The Sith do not, prehaps fallen Jedi do, but not lifelong Sith the Jedi have no responsibility for. 
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
3/25 5:01am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
3/25 5:03am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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dp4m posted:
Havac posted:
[quote=xx_Anakin_xx]Um..yeah, Mace made the Jedi Code perfectly clear - then rationalized and broke it. It was not acceptable to kill an unarmed Sidious. We know now he wasn't unarmed, but Mace didn't know that then.
Barring ysalamiri or Sever Force, there is no such thing as an unarmed Dark Lord of the Sith.
Yeah we know that, but Mace didn't believe Sidious had anything left in him - he raised his lightsaber with every intention of killing Sidious on the spot and believing he could. That is why he paused when Anakin told him he was breaking the code - he knew he was. It was exactly the same thing as Anakin killing Dooku - from Mace's perspective; a downed, unarmed man. Mace gave into his fear that Sidious could not be taken any other way - a fear with a good foundation - but it was the same fear Anakin had when he killed Dooku - we know this because the exact same words were used in both cases: "He's too dangerous to be kept alive". Anakin had given up on the revenge: "I shouldn't, it is not the Jedi way" - - so same thing, new day.
And we have it all over again with Luke. "I'll never let you fall" that is, until I've sliced your head off - then I will. In principle, I agree that all of the deaths were necessary - but let us not be so willing to condone them simply because of the actor doing the killing. Dooku, Palpatine and Lumiya all needed to die - but the manner the Jedi did it (or tried in Mace's case) was against the Jedi Code.
What makes me unhappy about the authors trying to make Luke's killing justified is that I fear they will use the same tactic with Jacen. It just isn't right. We saw "right" in canon when Vader/Anakin took Palpatine out in the end. First defense of a third person (electric waves hitting Luke) and then self-defense (waves turned on himself). They should stick with that rather than trying to rationalize actions like the one Luke took with Lumiya as justified (per the Jedi Code).
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/25 6:24am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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xx_Anakin_xx posted:
What makes me unhappy about the authors trying to make Luke's killing justified is that I fear they will use the same tactic with Jacen. It just isn't right. We saw "right" in canon when Vader/Anakin took Palpatine out in the end. First defense of a third person (electric waves hitting Luke) and then self-defense (waves turned on himself). They should stick with that rather than trying to rationalize actions like the one Luke took with Lumiya as justified (per the Jedi Code).
I don't think they are justifying Luke's killing of Lumiya, instead they are using it as his very own version of kryptonite. They crippled Luke morally, so they could have an excuse to have Jaina to face her brother (although I think that the original intention was that Ben would face Jacen).
When it comes Jaina and Jacen, I think they will avoid this problem by having someone else kill Jacen. Jaina will defeat her, but will not kill him - instead, perhaps Tahiri, some Super-Mando or Bothan spy will kill him. So Jaina can claim victory without having her brother's blood in her hands. It's the easiest and most cowardly way of ending the series, so I think it's very likely that we see it.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
3/25 7:45am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Robimus posted:
Remind me again why a Jedi would want to let a Sith live? The Jedi of the Old Republic certainly had no pity on them and I don't see why Luke should. Hoth wanted to destroy the Brotherhood, Farfalla wanted to destroy Bane. Jedi compassion and goodwill is reserved for those who deserve it. The Sith do not, prehaps fallen Jedi do, but not lifelong Sith the Jedi have no responsibility for.
Uh... didn't they bring in Ulic one to answer for his crimes at which point they killed a bunch of people and escaped and THEN Nomi used Sever Force on Ulic rather than stopping him in the Mace-way after he killed his brother?
Didn't the Jedi Council also have a defeated Revan taken in and captured PRIOR to them knowing of the loss of memory issues once he was injured and unconscious?
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Master_Keralys
Title: Lit Mod of Quantum Indeterminacy
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/25 7:48am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
3/25 7:49am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Keralys
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n/m
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Jeff_Ferguson
Registered:
May '06
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Date Posted:
3/25 8:51am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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BobaMatt posted:
Well, no. Luke says that the Mando word for Sith is "fallen Jedi," which it is, and Luke also says that Sith are not always fallen Jedi.
Ah, OK, my mistake. Even so, though, I completely agree with these points made by you and Cull Tremayne:
BobaMatt posted:
But yes, this and the Ben thing, to me, smack not of bias but of preoccupation. I don't think Karen is really trying to say that Mandos are better than anyone else, but she does seem to sneak in information about Mandos where it isn't really appropriate. Why would Luke say this? Why would Ben think that?
Cull_Tremayne posted:
[I'm looking for Luke to correct her, not validate her flawed interpretation with Mando'a wordplay.
...
Worse yet, it's Copernicus bringing up Aristotle. I guess I'm just expecting Luke to correct her, not bring up another culture that supports her assumption.
Cull_Tremayne posted:
Jeff Ferguson posted:
What do yoy mean by the different spin the story will take, Cull? Shysa wasn't the commanding officer that raped Sintas Vel, though I thought that was what Fett was getting at at first.
I was referring more to Beviin's belief that Shysa knew Spar wasn't Boba Fett, and he hired the clone before they fought in the Clone Wars. It gives a different spin to the Marvel comics, since in Shysa's first appearance, he thought that his commanding officer was Fett, which if Beviin is to be believed, is a total lie. The other problem is that in later comics, Shysa makes mention that he hates Fett for serving the Empire, which makes it a little odd to lie about "Fett" being his commanding officer. If he was going to lie, why that guy?
Ah, OK, I see. You're absolutely right; Shysa's backstory would become very confused if he had known that he was serving under Spar rather than Fett. I guess we can assume that Goran's belief is incorrect, then?
I also love this tidbit on Shysa from the Wook:
Wookieepedia posted:
The ending of the war was confusing for Shysa. Palpatine, after declaring himself Galactic Emperor, transformed the Republic into the Galactic Empire, ruling the galaxy with an iron fist. However, the Emperor's scarred visage, incurred in his duel with Mace Windu, made him appear similar to that of his alter-ego.[8] Shysa began to believe that the Mandalorians had actually fought on the Emperor's side, confused as to who their real commander was.
Shysa knew that the Emperor was Darth Sidious by accident? Whoa!
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AnnLouise
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/25 9:40am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Charlemagne19 posted:
BobaMatt posted:
The Jedi Council is not a body that has the authority to hold a trial for the Chancellor...they can arrest him and bring him before the Senate and the Courts, presumably, but I'm under the impression the Jedi knew they were taking a big risk, there...
...and how exactly was this arrest supposed to occur, anyway?
Let's remember the Jedi don't give a shavit about laws.
They follow their own Code above all others.
The Jedi were willing to take over the Republic.
Umm....is this serious or joking? 
IIRC, Mace said Palp was under arrest, in the name of the Senate, and in response Palp drew a weapon and attacked them. He was resisting arrest and threatening their lives. If any "guardians of the peace" in this world face such a situation, they'd be well within their authority to respond with deadly force if neccessary.
So I hope this is meant as funny ha-ha.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
3/25 10:08am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Charlemagne19 posted:
The problem is that they're pretty much utterly lacking anything resembling tact in expressing this, despite their reputation as diplomats.
And this is my point. Given the Jedi's love for the Republic and democracy, I tend to think they must have had some sort of more comprehensive plan than "We take over the Republic." Of course, that was before they knew Palpatine was a Sith, at which point they must have realized all those plans were going to be worth nothing.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
3/25 11:09am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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BobaMatt posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
The problem is that they're pretty much utterly lacking anything resembling tact in expressing this, despite their reputation as diplomats.
And this is my point. Given the Jedi's love for the Republic and democracy, I tend to think they must have had some sort of more comprehensive plan than "We take over the Republic." Of course, that was before they knew Palpatine was a Sith, at which point they must have realized all those plans were going to be worth nothing.
I think my basic point is that they intended to capture Palpatine and after weathering things, basically clean out the corrupt elements of the Senate along with the military. I.e. a pretty standard military coup, it's just the context that changes everything.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
3/25 11:55am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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dp4m posted:
That they're just eliminating continuity outright rather than trying to make it stick where there's been the preexisting canon for decades. Things like the Dark Forces thing mentioning Darovit dying on Ruusaan or slight updates to PoD vs. JvS are one thing, but outright changing the canonical history of characters because of... what?
And yet LFL claims "one continuity" still?
Uhhhhh, that's what POD vs. JvS was. Outright changing of the canonical history of characters and of events.
Anyway, for what you said about Dooku -- I don't think Anakin did have a very good plan, and it seems to have relied entirely on Dooku being too subdued and in pain to fight back effectively. Though I think part of it is that the Jedi just didn't see Dooku the same way. He was evil and a Sith, but they seem to have seen him as still fundamentally civilized, a guy who might surrender and mean it, a guy who might admit defeat. Also, Dooku and Sidious was the difference between a guy who was beaten and, at least at that moment, more or less at your mercy being killed in cold blood and killing a cornered enemy who, while not currently fighting back, wasn't at all lacking in the capacity to do so and was just waiting for an opportunity to strike again.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
3/25 11:56am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Honestly, I actually believe Anakin had Dooku at his mercy.
Dooku could be contained and held by the Jedi
Sidious, not so much.
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/25 11:59am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Honestly, I actually believe Anakin had Dooku at his mercy.
Dooku could be contained and held by the Jedi
Sidious, not so much.
They could have cut off Sidious' hands, and if necessary, legs. It would have made things easier. Anakin just didn't realize that he didn't need whole Palpatine... 
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
3/25 12:01pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Havac posted:
Uhhhhh, that's what POD vs. JvS was. Outright changing of the canonical history of characters and of events.
Except that for all of that, the fundamental portions were the same -- there wasn't anything changed which really screwed with the continuity, was there? Technology changed, people died earlier or later, some events were switched around but all still happened right?
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
3/25 12:03pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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dp4m posted:
Havac posted:
Uhhhhh, that's what POD vs. JvS was. Outright changing of the canonical history of characters and of events.
Except that for all of that, the fundamental portions were the same -- there wasn't anything changed which really screwed with the continuity, was there? Technology changed, people died earlier or later, some events were switched around but all still happened right?
So...canon go BOOM! in PoD, but makes a bigger BOOM! in REV/O66?
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
3/25 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Revelation discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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patchworkz7 posted:
So...canon go BOOM! in PoD, but makes a bigger BOOM! in REV/O66?
No, if what is said in Revelation and what you're saying about O66 occurs then stuff will be outright eliminated from continuity. The Marvel stories will cease to exist.
The PoD stuff does not have the same issues, does it?
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