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Topic:
The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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ATimson
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
3/24 2:42am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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CooperTFN posted:
I can see what you mean - how exactly would you define a "geek disposition", though? Do you think any other franchise, say Trek, would yield similar data?
I do; not just franchises, though. I think you could also see something similar in SF literature fandom (Dune and David Weber's Honor Harrington books are the ones that come to mind).
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JediHobbit
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
3/24 4:51am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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Interesting results Coop. I couldn't help thinking about LotF: Revelation while reading your blog post. While I didn't really agree with the fact that book had the Mandalorians running the show and the Jedi doing virtually nothing excpet moving the entire book, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
Get out of my head.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/24 5:51am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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Coop did you really get 1500 answers???
Wow.
I thought you had, like, 30 replies.
But I guess I saw the outcome coming. Basically, your conclusions can be found in any old 'what do you think the next series should be about' thread; everybody wants something else.
CooperTFN posted:
To those of you who do read other franchises heavily - how would you say your relationship to that material compares to SW?
Only other franchises I follow are European comics titles, and the big difference of course is the volume. For instance: Spirou, a franchise that has existed for almost 70 years, is equalled in volume by Star Wars every five years. On the one hand, that guarantees that the market won't be saturated. On the other hand, if they hire a crap artist, you'll have to wait ten years before quality returns.
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Robimus
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
3/24 10:05am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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Very Interesting. I find it interesting that a lot of people haven't even read the Thrawn Trilogy, and add me to one of the folks that thought the return of Thrawn meant the Duology. Interesting but not surprising. I bet everyone on these boards has had a lot of "They should have done this" type moments, or "Wow, I hope they do this in the next book...."
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CooperTFN
Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
3/24 11:06am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
- Date Edited:
3/24 11:15am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
CooperTFN
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posted:
While I didn't really agree with the fact that book had the Mandalorians running the show and the Jedi doing virtually nothing excpet moving the entire book, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
I've been largely ambivalent to the Mandos, myself - they're fairly entertaining, but Traviss' personal desire to write about them is palpable throughout, especially the last fifty pages. But I gave the book a ten out of ten, because I enjoyed the crap out of it. It's something that happens with Stover, too, actually - I don't personally love every single thing he does in his books (the "This is..." segments in RotS being a prime example), but he writes the absolute hell out of them, so I can't complain.
posted:
Coop did you really get 1500 answers???
Wow.
I thought you had, like, 30 replies.
TFN, ladies and gentlemen. And keep in mind that's the amount who read the post, followed the link, read my instructions, and filled out the whole thing. There were probably five times that many who at least looked at Ewok's news item.
posted:
Only other franchises I follow are European comics titles, and the big difference of course is the volume.
I'm thinking more about how you feel about it, though - after however many years you've devoted to Spirou, do you find yourself having preconceived ideas about where the plots "should" be going? Do you enjoy the worse books (the ones with crap artists, for example) in spite of yourself?
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/24 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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Good question.
Yes, I very much have a notion of what storylines fit with the Spirou character, or the Blueberry character, or Asterix, or any other long-running franchise. Yet, authors have thought other qualities were important. In the last Spirou (#49) he finally becomes involved with a girl he met in 1952... An imaginary crowd on an imaginary Spirou board is screaming bloody murder.
But, as to your question of if I like the silly stuff - I think that's got a lot to do with how one is introduced to a franchise.
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CooperTFN
Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
3/24 10:41pm
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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That's actually another area that would be interesting to research - what effect your introduction to the franchise has on your preferences and expectations. I never saw a Star Wars movie until the SEs when I was fifteen, and I think that's colored my feelings about a lot of stuff.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
3/24 11:54pm
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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CooperTFN posted:
Some people would say it was a mistake for Han to even have survived RotJ. 
Harrison Ford amongst them but George Lucas was right here, at least with Luke/Leia kaput.
But yes, I guess I can see the General thing being the right decision because...
Even as a boy, all I could think was "Do they just hand out General commissions? Seriously, Luke is the only guy in the group IN the Rebellion and now he has to take orders from Han!?"
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Zee Zee
Registered:
Feb '99
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Date Posted:
4/10 7:05am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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In the conclusion to his blog, The Nexus of Fandom and Logic, Mike asks "We're sick and tired of the Big Three having to get involved in big galactic wars, aren't we?". I believe that the results of Mike's survey can answer this question and I have posted the results of my findings on my own website (Star Wars Books).
I contacted Mike prior to posting the article online and I am grateful for his permission to use his data; his advice, opinions, suggestions and comments regarding my findings (that are based upon the findings of his own survey data). Mike's comments are included at the end of the article.
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ATimson
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
4/10 8:36am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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I'm not entirely sold on your conclusions, Zee Zee; Path of Destruction had been available in paperback for less than six months (in fact, I think less than a month) when the survey was taken, so I'd put it in the same category as Inferno. And Traitor shows that Big 3-less novels can be just as popular as those with the Big 3.
I also want to write off the Enemy Lines discrepancy; as someone who wants to see Big 3-less novels, I'll be damned if I could tell you what the books were about. One of them had the commando mission to Coruscant, but that's about it.  Unfortunately, I can't come up with any objective reason to dispute its placing (unlike PoD). 
I'd also like to see (which this survey obviously didn't cover) if there's any difference in "familiarity" between Anakin/Obi-Wan novels (or even Dark Rendezvous with Yoda), and ones like Shatterpoint and Republic Commando with minor/no movie characters. And also between Clone Wars novels and the standalones.
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Zee Zee
Registered:
Feb '99
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Date Posted:
4/10 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
- Date Edited:
4/10 1:40pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Zee Zee
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ATimson posted:
I'm not entirely sold on your conclusions, Zee Zee; Path of Destruction had been available in paperback for less than six months (in fact, I think less than a month) when the survey was taken, so I'd put it in the same category as Inferno. And Traitor shows that Big 3-less novels can be just as popular as those with the Big 3.
I also want to write off the Enemy Lines discrepancy; as someone who wants to see Big 3-less novels, I'll be damned if I could tell you what the books were about. One of them had the commando mission to Coruscant, but that's about it. Unfortunately, I can't come up with any objective reason to dispute its placing (unlike PoD).
I'd also like to see (which this survey obviously didn't cover) if there's any difference in "familiarity" between Anakin/Obi-Wan novels (or even Dark Rendezvous with Yoda), and ones like Shatterpoint and Republic Commando with minor/no movie characters. And also between Clone Wars novels and the standalones.
Path of Destruction had been available for over a year before the survey was taken (hardback was released in September 2006), yet another hardback, Sacrifice (released June 2007) that did feature the Big Three, scored significantly better (nearly ten points higher than PoD for book familiarity) even though it had been available for only eight months prior to the survey. Don't forget PoD's #11 position in the New York Times hardback bestsellers list, yet fans familiarity was only 62.9%.
Certainly Traitor did not feature any of the Big Three, but the article was to answer Mike's question in his conclusion: Aren't we sick of the Big Three? Based upon the correlation of the books highlighted within the lower part of the table - the only thing they had in common was that they did not feature the Big Three - I believe that the results of his survey could answer his own question. I acknowledge that the survey size was limited, but I believe my conclusion, based on the available data, is decisive: we really aren't that interested in books that don't feature the Big Three.
I'm sorry but you say you want to write of the Enemy Lines discrepancy because you want to see Big 3-less books - I thought that the reason for Enemy Lines low ranking was because at least one of the books didn't feature all of the Big-3 (only 1 of them) and this was a reason for its low position.
I couldn't agree more with the need for further surveys to really understand fans attitudes to the EU. As Mike himself says: "We like or dislike the stories based on how closely their chosen aspects of Star Wars reflect the ones most important to us, but even when we disagree vehemently with what's happening (and are prompted to go online and complain that it doesn't feel like Star Wars ), we enjoy it in spite of ourselves because it still is Star Wars - if it weren't we wouldn't keep buying it.". Mike's survey could be the first of many that could look at all these different aspects of fandom.
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ATimson
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
4/10 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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Zee Zee posted:
Path of Destruction had been available for over a year before the survey was taken (hardback was released in September 2006), yet another hardback, Sacrifice (released June 2007) that did feature the Big Three, scored significantly better (nearly ten points higher than PoD for book familiarity) even though it had been available for only eight months prior to the survey.
Sacrifice was also part of an ongoing series. Waiting to read PoD until it was in paperback wouldn't hurt anything; waiting to read Sacrifice would mean also putting off the next three novels in the LOTF series.
That said, it turns out I was wrong about when PoD hit paperback (26 June 2007); I thought it was simultaneous with the release of Rule of Two. So that totally throws all that out the window. 
Zee Zee posted:
Certainly Traitor did not feature any of the Big Three, but the conclusion is based upon the correlation of the books highlighted within the lower part of the table - the only thing they had in common was that they did not feature the Big Three.
But Traitor seems to show that to be a specious conclusion; that is, not having the Big 3 doesn't guarantee that a book won't be well-remembered by fandom. I'd argue that the five low-rated books have more in common than their lack of the Big 3; four of the five (excepting Shatterpoint) don't have Jedi as their main characters (unlike Traitor). Four of the five (excepting EL) dispense with the familiar New Republic and Empire for unfamiliar settings (again unlike Traitor).
Zee Zee posted:
I'm sorry but you say you want to write of the Enemy Lines discrepancy because you want to see Big 3-less books - I thought that the reason for Enemy Lines low ranking was because at least one of the books didn't feature all of the Big-3 (only 1 of them) and this was a reason for its low position.
Basically, I was trying to say that as someone who likes "Big 3-less" books, which that duology was, I don't remember what happened; that it failed to be memorable to those who enjoy that "style" of book, much less those who don't, probably hurt it. And I think that that's a failing of those specific books, not that "style" in general. But that's an entirely subjective position, unlike mine on PoD (which was objective, just based on false data ).
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It's nice to know that those who make the board possible matter.
If someone other than me edited this, please don't attribute anything in it to me in quotes. It's not mine anymore.
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CooperTFN
Title: TF.n EU Staff Emeritus
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
4/10 10:11pm
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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Zee Zee posted:
I contacted Mike prior to posting the article online and I am grateful for his permission to use his data; his advice, opinions, suggestions and comments regarding my findings
And I say to thee - take my opinions, go forth...and make them grow! 
Incidentally, one thing I wish I'd done differently in light of Zee's article is include a couple of the X-Wing books. They're about as classic as you can get in the non-big-three category, so it'd be really telling to see whether they had lower numbers as well.
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Carnage04
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
4/10 11:17pm
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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One (of many) things I found interesting....
Anakin Solo's death has a higher approval rating than Mara Jade's death....albeit by a slight margin.
Reading these boards, Anakin's Death seems waaaaay less accepted.
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Dunc T'racen
Registered:
Mar '00
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Date Posted:
4/11 12:19am
Subject:
RE: The nexus of fandom and logic (was: A little experiment)
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Proximity. Give it a few years.
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