Author Topic: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/18/08 4:21pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/18/08 4:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
Rouge77 posted:
The estimates for the populations of ecumenopolises in EU are always far too low or else there are really huge uninhabited areas on them.


Overall, I tend to assume that ecumenopolises are probably as populated as we think they are.

But I also like being nice and assuming most of Coruscant was capable of being evacuated prior to the invasion too.

:-)

Boba Matt posted:
I have to reject one of your premises from that first post, Charles: you say that Fel's Empire is not the real Empire, that Krayt's is. The problem I have with this is that it discounts the good that was done in between.


Well, it's hypberole really either way. Because while Roan Fel is Emperor, 999,999% worlds of the Galactic Empire belong to Darth Krayt. Furthermore, all of the Bureaucracy belongs to Darth Krayt as well and almost all of the military.

Yes, Darth Krayt isn't the legitimate Emperor. I've been corrected on that.

However, it's a bit like suggesting James the Second is the ruler of the REAL England in France. Roan Fel is a King in Exile.

 

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BobaMatt  14519 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: Aug '02
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 6:34pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Charlemagne19 posted:
However, it's a bit like suggesting James the Second is the ruler of the REAL England in France. Roan Fel is a King in Exile.

Depends.

If we're having a discussion about whether or not, in universe, the Empire is able to be good, then Krayt is irrelevant. The answer is yes. Fel's good Empire only became bad again because Fel was usurped by a Sith - there's no argument there about the essential nature of the Empire.

However, if we're discussing whether, OOU, storytellers will turn the Empire good, then Krayt is paramount to the argument, because they made a good Empire just so that they could turn it bad again.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/18/08 6:52pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
BobaMatt posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
However, it's a bit like suggesting James the Second is the ruler of the REAL England in France. Roan Fel is a King in Exile.

Depends.

If we're having a discussion about whether or not, in universe, the Empire is able to be good, then Krayt is irrelevant. The answer is yes. Fel's good Empire only became bad again because Fel was usurped by a Sith - there's no argument there about the essential nature of the Empire.

However, if we're discussing whether, OOU, storytellers will turn the Empire good, then Krayt is paramount to the argument, because they made a good Empire just so that they could turn it bad again.


Also, your first point is also hampered because Roan Fel was good.

Not necessarilly the Empire.

Because Roan Fel was a nice ruler (arguably) and got overthrown because the Imperials wanted to be militaristic ******s again.

 

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Rouge77  7450 posts
Registered: May '05
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 6:55pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Roan Fel is not good. Nowhere near. Certainly he is very far from the light. He is less evil than Darth Krayt, that can be said, but it's not very hard to be less evil than a Sith Lord.

 

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Rouge77  7450 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:03pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/18/08 7:04pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
BobaMatt posted:
However, if we're discussing whether, OOU, storytellers will turn the Empire good, then Krayt is paramount to the argument, because they made a good Empire just so that they could turn it bad again.


No, they first destroyed the GA and the Jedi so that the Empire could be in the center of the story. And as all stories like this need two sides, they then divided the Empire. Now both the "bad" side - Krayt's Empire - and the "good" (but just less evil) side - the Fel Empire - in the series are just two factions of the same Empire. Great for the fans of the Empire, bleaker for those who don't like this kind of revisionism and the concentration of the story on just on one, totalitarian government.

 

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BobaMatt  14519 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:05pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Charlemagne19 posted:
Also, your first point is also hampered because Roan Fel was good.

Not necessarilly the Empire.

Because Roan Fel was a nice ruler (arguably) and got overthrown because the Imperials wanted to be militaristic ******s again.

Very true.

However, according to Nyna the only reason as much of the hierarchy stayed in place as it did was because she got Veed to stay. The Moffs don't like the Sith, and it seems most never did. Strangely, it seems they knew it was Veed's fault, too...

The Empire was good, it's just that authoritarian government attracts the power hungry - and that's so obvious it's almost not worth discussing. I mean, it's obvious why the Sith acted through the Empire and not the GA.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:11pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
BobaMatt posted:


The Empire was good, it's just that authoritarian government attracts the power hungry - and that's so obvious it's almost not worth discussing. I mean, it's obvious why the Sith acted through the Empire and not the GA.


Yes, but that's the real point isn't it.

That any government based on glorification of an authoritarian military state is destined to eventually fall to evil, even if you have Uncle Roan types at the start.

 

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GrandAdmiralJello  59900 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:17pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Why?

If anything, the Roman Empire stayed good even though it had a multitude of bad rulers. It tended to eliminate them in quick succession, leaving only the benevolent ones to actually have long reigns.

So where's the logic behind that claim, C19?

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:33pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Why?

If anything, the Roman Empire stayed good even though it had a multitude of bad rulers. It tended to eliminate them in quick succession, leaving only the benevolent ones to actually have long reigns.

So where's the logic behind that claim, C19?


The Roman Empire was many things, a force for stability and security in an uncertain world.

But GOOD?

 

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BobaMatt  14519 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:34pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Well, it was far from evil, for the most part, no?

 

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AdmiralNick22  6913 posts
Registered: May '03
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:35pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/18/08 8:37pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
BobaMatt posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
Also, your first point is also hampered because Roan Fel was good.

Not necessarilly the Empire.

Because Roan Fel was a nice ruler (arguably) and got overthrown because the Imperials wanted to be militaristic ******s again.

Very true.

However, according to Nyna the only reason as much of the hierarchy stayed in place as it did was because she got Veed to stay. The Moffs don't like the Sith, and it seems most never did. Strangely, it seems they knew it was Veed's fault, too...

The Empire was good, it's just that authoritarian government attracts the power hungry - and that's so obvious it's almost not worth discussing. I mean, it's obvious why the Sith acted through the Empire and not the GA.


I think that the Confederation-GA War was watched with great interest by Krayt's Sith on Korriban. If anything, they realized that a democracy is far harder to subvery than a authoritarian regime. To many people in power, to many interests, etc.

The Empire's greatest strength (vesting of power in one sovereign) is also its weakest point. Krayt exploits this. The only thing that Krayt did not forsee was that many "modern" Imperials (ie, Loyalists to Roan Fel, those who are not anti-alien, etc) did not accept his regime and rise to the throne. Hence why he has been having so many problems defeating Roan Fel once and for all.

Those same greedy Moffs who nothing to see here whistling are cut of the same cloth as Veed, Geist, etc.

--Adm. Nick

 

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Rouge77  7450 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:35pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/18/08 7:36pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
Genocides and lesser massacres, destruction of local cultures, many millions of enslaved people through the Roman Empire's existence. It was evil.

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 7:43pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
BobaMatt posted:
Well, it was far from evil, for the most part, no?


Some rather extreme ups and downs.

We are dealing with the single largest slave owning force in the entirety of human history.

 

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BobaMatt  14519 posts
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Date Posted: 2/18/08 8:11pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
I've always been taught that, as a rule, Roman slavery wasn't nearly as cruel...

 

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Charlemagne19  26812 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 2/18/08 8:13pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
BobaMatt posted:
I've always been taught that, as a rule, Roman slavery wasn't nearly as cruel...


Depends.

House slavery, valuable piece of property.

Mines?

Well, there's a reason that thousands of years later its still an expression to be sent to the mines.

 

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