Jedi Council Forums - Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?

Locked Topic | Read Only Topic | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 » - Previous | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Lord_Boney Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 2/10/08 5:38am Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Carnage4 posted: I think you are confusing the people shown that believe in the Empire....who for the most part were Military or Administrative types....to those that were just day to day citizens. Those Military/Administrative types ARE going to believe in the Empire because the government is the source of their livelihood. To further the illusion is the fact that the Empire had a very large Military. I think you'll find your mistaken. The majority of the galaxy supported, or was indifferent to Palpatine. Only in the ever uncontent Rimworlds and the formerly Confederate planets did the Rebellion enjoy wide support. -----signature----- If you don't say your prayers, Boney will come and get you!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
BobaMatt Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/10/08 12:36pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/10/08 12:38pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BobaMatt
	Rouge77 posted: BobaMatt posted: Rouge77 posted: The Empire is and has always been, evil. It can't be good. It's Palpatine's creation. I'm late on this thread, but...for the last time, Palpatine did not invent monarchy. For the last time, it's Palpatine's Empire. His creation. It's his system of administration, it's the military he created and the position of the Emperor is his creation. The Fel Empire isn't some other Empire, who hasn't got anything in common with Palpatine's Empire except that it too is an empire. No, the Empire claims to be Palpatine's Empire. The Fels who rule it claim that they rule Palpatine's Empire. It's still Palpatine's poisonous creation. Like...150 years later, under new leadership and decades of reform... You're implying there's something inherently evil about monarchy or oligarchy, which is why I'm saying Palpatine didn't invent that system of government... -----signature----- DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11 As Father and Son (An AU RP) http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10 Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Carnage04 Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 2/10/08 12:37pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Lord_Boney posted: Carnage4 posted: I think you are confusing the people shown that believe in the Empire....who for the most part were Military or Administrative types....to those that were just day to day citizens. Those Military/Administrative types ARE going to believe in the Empire because the government is the source of their livelihood. To further the illusion is the fact that the Empire had a very large Military. I think you'll find your mistaken. The majority of the galaxy supported, or was indifferent to Palpatine. Only in the ever uncontent Rimworlds and the formerly Confederate planets did the Rebellion enjoy wide support. I'll buy indifference, but I won't confuse indifference with overwhelming support. -----signature----- Carnage I Finally decided to use a signature after 3500 posts! 3500 posts * 7 Characters = 24500 keystrokes wasted
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 2/10/08 1:13pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	BobaMatt posted: You're implying there's something inherently evil about monarchy or oligarchy, which is why I'm saying Palpatine didn't invent that system of government... Oligarchy is always evil, monarchy can be evil if the monarch has power. But that has got nothing to do with this. The Empire in Legacy is evil, because it's still THE Empire, Palpatine's creation. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 2/10/08 1:13pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Carnage04 posted: I'll buy indifference, but I won't confuse indifference with overwhelming support. I think that the Empire was almost overwhelmingly positive on Non-Seperatist worlds at the start. However, I think by ANH, most of the Empire's citizens thought the Empire was a dictatorship.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 2/10/08 1:27pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Jedi Ben posted: Oh, come on: What's the Death Star if not a clear message of: Behave or you're screwed and your planet with you? Or are you going to say it's to clear asteroids? When did the Legacy Empire build a Death Star? Jedi Ben posted: Except if you think Britain was democratic in the Victorian you've another thing coming Exactly. Yet today, its government, purely from the view of its trappings, its offices, looks exactly the same, but it is democratic. So if we don't assume that modern Britian is undemocratic because old Britain was, why should we assume Roan Fel's Empire is evil because Palpatine's was? Jedi Ben posted: People do think that way actually, not fair but quite realistic. If it's not fair and not correct, just what's realistic about it? Jedi Ben posted: So because you're told the information you believe it? You really don't see why people are going to be more than a tad suspicious of the Empire being cute and cuddly? No, I believe it because I've been told by the people who make the comic and have yet to be given reason to doubt that within the comic itself. And a government doesn't have to be cuddly to not be evil. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Lord_Boney Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 2/10/08 1:33pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Rouge77 posted: monarchy can be evil if the monarch has power Now thats a generalization. Charlemagne19 posted: However, I think by ANH, most of the Empire's citizens thought the Empire was a dictatorship. Well, Palpatine never really hid the fact the Empire was a dictatorship. The majority of the galaxy simply did not object to this. -----signature----- If you don't say your prayers, Boney will come and get you!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
BobaMatt Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/10/08 1:42pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Rouge77 posted: BobaMatt posted: You're implying there's something inherently evil about monarchy or oligarchy, which is why I'm saying Palpatine didn't invent that system of government... Oligarchy is always evil, monarchy can be evil if the monarch has power. Monarchy can be evil. Why is oligarchy always evil? Rouge77 posted: But that has got nothing to do with this. That has everything to do with this. Rouge77 posted: The Empire in Legacy is evil, because it's still THE Empire, Palpatine's creation. Palpatine hasn't been in control of it for about 150 years. In fact, for most of that time, it wasn't even an Empire. Once the Empire was reestablished, it's been through three Emperors - which means it's lasted peacefully alongside the GA for more than three times the time of Palpatine's Empire. -----signature----- DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11 As Father and Son (An AU RP) http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10 Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 2/10/08 2:50pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Exactly. Yet today, its government, purely from the view of its trappings, its offices, looks exactly the same, but it is democratic. So if we don't assume that modern Britian is undemocratic because old Britain was, why should we assume Roan Fel's Empire is evil because Palpatine's was? * With just about every govt elected to power with less than 50% of the popular vote it could be said Britain remains undemocratic, courtesy of the phrase 'elective dictatorship. As for the Empire, it all comes down to how you view the notion that the state and its survial, embodied in the Emperor, is all. You don't see it as a problem, I do. It could be said the Empire is simply a social contract model, yet Rousseau's original model was indeed critiqued on the grounds it could be a blueprint for tyranny. If it's not fair and not correct, just what's realistic about it? * You really don't know people, do you? People do act and think in ways that are patently unfair and factually incorrect and always will. That's reality for you. No, I believe it because I've been told by the people who make the comic and have yet to be given reason to doubt that within the comic itself. And a government doesn't have to be cuddly to not be evil. * The best the Legacy Empire is, right now, is a lesser evil, the Sith aren't enough to turn them into a good by relativity. * Fel's true colours were pretty much nailed by the Allies story, he kept the alliance with the Sith for 2 years of the Sith-Imperial war, but was he unwilling or unable to end that alliance? The suggestion is unable, that the Moffs had too much power, nevertheless Fel remained Emperor, only being deposed at the end by Krayt, after the Ossus attack, so the responsibility still falls to him. If he had been able to, he would have executed Calixte, probably initiated a purge of the Moffs and is probably still intending too given the mass execution that was his message to Maladi. * Fel's fine so long as you're happy with a ruthless, authoritarian Emperor in place of a totalitarian, psychopathic one. But should we really be content with either? -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 2/10/08 4:18pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/10/08 4:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
	Rouge77 posted: BobaMatt posted: You're implying there's something inherently evil about monarchy or oligarchy, which is why I'm saying Palpatine didn't invent that system of government... Oligarchy is always evil, monarchy can be evil if the monarch has power. But that has got nothing to do with this. The Empire in Legacy is evil, because it's still THE Empire, Palpatine's creation. I've never heard the theory that the American founders were evil. Do you want to explain that to me? Jedi Ben: What's democracy if not tyranny by one group of people over another? Remember that slavery, racism, and sexism were all gleefully maintained by democratic institutions. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 2/10/08 4:22pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Wrong place to do that really. But surely you of all people can't side with persons who rebelled against their rightful monarch? -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 2/10/08 8:09pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	They did themselves a disfavor by rebelling against the monarch instead of Lord North. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 2/10/08 10:45pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Lord_Boney posted: Well, Palpatine never really hid the fact the Empire was a dictatorship. The majority of the galaxy simply did not object to this. Let me rephrase. By ANH, the average GFFA was sick of the ever heightening taxes and soldiers on the streets plus the overwhelming monitoring of everything. That didn't include the worlds that were ACTIVELY oppressed or enslaved.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Carnage04 Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 2/10/08 11:59pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Charlemagne19 posted: Lord_Boney posted: Well, Palpatine never really hid the fact the Empire was a dictatorship. The majority of the galaxy simply did not object to this. Let me rephrase. By ANH, the average GFFA was sick of the ever heightening taxes and soldiers on the streets plus the overwhelming monitoring of everything. That didn't include the worlds that were ACTIVELY oppressed or enslaved. Right. So the Empire had a lot of support until people figured out what the Empire was actually supposed to be. "Safe and Secure Society" seems like a really good idea until the people found out that safe and secure meant "Governmental opression of most basic freedoms" -----signature----- Carnage I Finally decided to use a signature after 3500 posts! 3500 posts * 7 Characters = 24500 keystrokes wasted
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 2/11/08 1:03am Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Here's the important thing, though. Barabels were discovered to be sentient, and were protected by the Empire subsequently. No matter how you spin things, the Empire inherently must have had some good in it if the hunting of sentient nohumans was illegal even under it. The Empire wasn't necessarily about the suppression of everyone and everything. It was, fundamentally, about maintaining Order. In places it fell heavier than others, simply because it needed to. Affording the same rights to rebels on Mon Calamari and then good citizens on Corulag doesn't work. Separatism was still frowned upon, even by the Alliance. You'll note that BDZ', genocides and slavery only took place against those that opposed it. Basic security checks and protection of rights was still apart of the Empire. Religion was banned for the simple point that it made violence; see the reign of Chancellor Constipex, the religious oriented actions of anti-Hutt cults, and I believe the Porporites were religiously oriented in their wars of conquest, though you may correct me. I really don't see, bar the excesses, how the Empire was evil, evil, evil. It resisted the NR for almost as long as it ruled unopposed - nearly two decades of Empire before the organised Rebellion came together, and just as long of the NR fighting it. Something inherently 'evil' doesn't get supported for half of it's lifetime. Sure, there's a degree of the populace simply turning around and running to the strongest power nearby, and a degree of the populace not caring, but there is also an overwhelming degree of the populace simply preferring the Empire even as late as 17 BBY - a quarter of the Galaxy, per the Cracken's Threat Dossier, remained sided with it, and, militarily, the Empire was decimated. The ease in which the GA has slipped into a police state, and the fact the Remnant, when it gave it's citizens the choice to leave and thus gave it's populace the choice to dissolve the New Order in 19 BBY, didn't vanish overnight - and in-fact subsequently grew in size over the next century - suggests that there is a wellspring of support for empire and totalitarianism. Something which couldn't have happened if the Empire was inherently a nasty piece of work. Three or four Death Stars, the Galaxy Gun, a dozen World Devastators, the Sun Crusher, the Eye, the Tarkin, the massacre in the Atravis Sectors, the Ghorman Massacre, the use of the Candorian Plague, the Wookie enslavement - they were affronts even to the most ardent Imperial - which screams to the casual observer that the Empire would've fell even quicker if they were the norm. After Yavin, things got progressively worse, yes, but a dozen occasions of unspeakable brutality don't imply an Empire-wide policy... Heavens, even the Remnant wishes fondly that someone had toppled Palpatine and saved the Empire. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 » - Previous | Next | Reload