Rouge77 posted:BobaMatt posted:Which, again, doesn't preclude the possibility of a non-evil Empire. Yes, and there might be good Sith too.
BobaMatt posted:Which, again, doesn't preclude the possibility of a non-evil Empire.
BobaMatt posted:Run by different people, 150 years later after they've gone through reform after reform and tons of changes. It's not the same Empire. It ceased to be the same Empire when they lost their Sith Emperor, the NR weeded out their crazy warlords, they reorganized into the Remnant and decided it would be cool to respect the GA and cooperate with it.
BobaMatt posted:It claims to have continuity with it in a certain manner of speaking, but it doesn't claim to uphold Palpatine's legacy. In fact, it seems to strive against it.
BobaMatt posted:If it hasn't been proven to you over and over again that an organization's past does not necessarily reflect its present or its future, then there's no helping you. There was a bad king, and now there's a new king - what's more, the king is of a new dynasty, which in monarchies was tantamount to massive reform, anyway. The Fel Emperor has nothing to do with the ancient, terrible Palpatine throne.
BobaMatt posted:And the idea seems to have been, "Y'know, the only thing wrong with the old Empire was the people who ran it."
BobaMatt posted:That doesn't preclude the existence of a benevolent Empire, especially considering the number of benevolent monarchies in the EU.
BobaMatt posted:So you believe that the form of government known as monarchy is inherently evil, like the Sith are inherently evil?
Rouge77 posted:BobaMatt posted:...decided it would be cool to respect the GA and cooperate with it. No, it was because Pellaeon realized that they were losing the war and that there was no chance of winning, so he asked for peace.
BobaMatt posted:...decided it would be cool to respect the GA and cooperate with it.
Rouge77 posted:And then in 127 ABY the Galactic Empire attacked the Galactic Alliance.
Rouge77 posted:The Empire is Palpatine's legacy. And who is ruling most of the Empire now in 137 ABY? A Sith Lord.
Rouge77 posted:And there are things that can't be reformed. In the case of the Empire, the experiment of reforming the Empire by the Fels has failed.
Rouge77 posted:Of course the Fel Emperors have everything to do with Palpatine and his throne. First of all they are sitting on Palpatine's throne (figuratively). Without Palpatine and his creation of the Empire there would be no Fel Emperors, no Empire for them to rule.
Rouge77 posted:We have no evidence of any major reform.
Rouge77 posted:Empire is little more tolerant of women and aliens - or from the viewpoint of your average male member of the Imperial elite, women and other aliens - but then we know that this racism and misogynism wasn't Palpatine's idea, even when he did use it. It's instead something that was close to heart to many of his non- Force sensitive followers, some of who went to continue their careers in IR.
Rouge77 posted:[quote=BobaMatt]And the idea seems to have been, "Y'know, the only thing wrong with the old Empire was the people who ran it."
Rouge77 posted:BobaMatt posted:So you believe that the form of government known as monarchy is inherently evil, like the Sith are inherently evil? If the monarch has power, yes. In the case of modern western monarchies, where the monarch has no power and the parasite lives his or her life as a pampered tourist attraction, the monarchy isn't evil. But give power to the monarch, thus letting him out of his cage, and he becomes dangerous.
BobaMatt posted:What does that have to do with Fel's Empire? He was usurped.
BobaMatt posted:It hasn't. It's been sabotaged. There's a huge difference. Krayt's coup has nothing to do with the Empire itself.
BobaMatt posted:Besides Victory Without War, the Imperial Mission, the replacement of Sith with lightside Force users, the abolishing of legal humanocentrism and sexism, a heretofore peaceful relationship with the Galactic Alliance, and countless OOU statements that Fel's Empire is not inherently evil? No, you're right.
Rouge77 posted:And many of whom were advanced in Palpatine's Empire specifically because they were ruthless and evil, and many of whom were weeded out in the 150 years since Endor and 100 years after the Remnant became acceptable to the GA - likely meaning there wasn't a whole lot of sentient rights abuse going on.
BobaMatt posted:And you remain without support for that assertion.
BobaMatt posted:We have. Fel's.
Sinrebirth posted:And, may it be noted, Fel's Empire being benevolent is canon.
Ulicus posted:I can't speak for the other Western Monarchies, or even the other Commonwealth Countries, but insofar as the United Kingdom is concerned, Her Majesty the Queen is no parasite.
Rouge77 posted:Ulicus posted:I can't speak for the other Western Monarchies, or even the other Commonwealth Countries, but insofar as the United Kingdom is concerned, Her Majesty the Queen is no parasite. Yes, she has worked so hard for the hundreds of millions, if not billions, of pounds she owns...
Rouge77 posted:BobaMatt posted:What does that have to do with Fel's Empire? He was usurped. He was replaced at the top. And when a Sith Lord replaced a supposed "Grey Jedi" on the throne, what happened? The Empire continued as it had been under Fel. Perhaps even the Sith Lords attached to military units or overseeing them are just having the same function as IKs previously.
Rouge77 posted:BobaMatt posted:It hasn't. It's been sabotaged. There's a huge difference. Krayt's coup has nothing to do with the Empire itself. Of course it has. Otherwise he could have done like Darth Caedus and take over the GA. In the Fel Empire he already had a nicely running tyrannical regime that he could help to conquer GA and then take over it himself.
Rouge77 posted:BobaMatt posted:Besides Victory Without War, the Imperial Mission, the replacement of Sith with lightside Force users, the abolishing of legal humanocentrism and sexism, a heretofore peaceful relationship with the Galactic Alliance, and countless OOU statements that Fel's Empire is not inherently evil? No, you're right. Mostly propaganda of which we have no evidence of how things really were.
Rouge77 posted:[quote=Rouge77]And many of whom were advanced in Palpatine's Empire specifically because they were ruthless and evil, and many of whom were weeded out in the 150 years since Endor and 100 years after the Remnant became acceptable to the GA - likely meaning there wasn't a whole lot of sentient rights abuse going on.
Rouge77 posted:[quote=BobaMatt]And you remain without support for that assertion.
Rouge77 posted:[quote=BobaMatt]We have. Fel's.
Sinrebirth posted:Even our current society applies different rights to those whom are terrorists or not.
Sinrebirth posted:Let's say a darksider wrote the Ruusan Republic Constitution, was killed, and the Constitution continues regardless for a millennium. Does that make the Ruusan Republic evil?
Sinrebirth posted:What Sidious intended for the Empire - a Sith magocracy - never came about. It didn't even come particularly close. Take out the thousands who believe it's about Sith hegemony or power, and what do you have? The mainstream Empire from 12 ABY at the earliest, and definately from 19 ABY in relation to the Remnant. It becomes an entity dedicated to Order.
Sinrebirth posted:Justification here is a slippery word. The Separatists under Grievous killed billions. The Separatists survived the Clone Wars in places, the Separatists became the Rebellion, until their presence wasn't felt... Hasn't the justification been justified? The Empire could justify this as a war against Separatist holdouts, or rebels seeking to bring back the horrors of the CIS and/or Republic - the latter allowing it's own share of genocides to occur.
Sinrebirth posted:At what point did the Nazi Party become elected by support, or elected by fear? The fear rose, yes, but at what point did the support vanish? When it lost, obviously. No matter the power of the State - Imperial, Nazi, Communist - it needs some support to work because governments don't survive if they're 100% feared. It's an untenable situation.
Sinrebirth posted:I ask you this; how much would a president cost?
Rouge77 posted:The Separatists were the creation of the Sith, who created also the Empire. So the Empire could never truly justify it's actions because of the remaining Separatists. It could make claims, but those claims were morally false. And the fact that some government had crimes on it's conscience doesn't give other governments right to commit more crimes.
Rouge77 posted:Sinrebirth posted:At what point did the Nazi Party become elected by support, or elected by fear? The fear rose, yes, but at what point did the support vanish? When it lost, obviously. No matter the power of the State - Imperial, Nazi, Communist - it needs some support to work because governments don't survive if they're 100% feared. It's an untenable situation. Governments just need support of the military, police and parts of the upper and middle classes: Robber barons and civil servants running the bureaucracy. As long as the government has this and most of the guns, the oppressed majority can't overthrow the government.
BobaMatt posted:Here's a perfect example. The Republic oppressed, disenfranchized, or simply ignore hundreds if not thousands of worlds. The Sith created the opportunity for them to stand up for themselves. Now, these poor people didn't realize they were being duped. Are they inherently evil for joining the CIS?
BobaMatt posted:You're forgetting the part where Hitler was considered Germany's savior by a lot the common folk.