Jedi Council Forums - Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?

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Author	Topic: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 2/17/08 5:49pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/17/08 5:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	Humbarine was an ecumenopolis which was entirely destroyed in the Clone Wars by the Separatists, almost certainly killing everyone on the planet. The number of deaths must have been huge, close to the number of deaths on Coruscant during the YV war. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 2/17/08 6:40pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: And even then, we should be careful what we mean by evil. All the evils of the First Empire aside, more people died under the NR than under the rule of Palpatine. So even moral judgments can't tell the entire story. There is something of a difference between death by Vong invasion as compared to death at the hand of your own ruler, who should be looking out for your best interests. The New Republic didn't choose to have the Vong invade. Death while fighting for your freedom is one thing, death because your leader trys out his Death Star on you is another. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 2/17/08 6:44pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/17/08 6:46pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: Coruscant alone probably outweighs the entire Clone Wars. But let's not get into a numbers discussion. ! I'm not. I'm just pointing out that Grevious destroyed Humbarine, a world almost identical to Coruscant in size, while Coruscant wasn't exactly totally depopulated. Edit: What Rogue77 said. For me, I tend to stick with the idea that the Vong destroyed Ithor, conquered Coruscant, and destroyed the Nosurian world. Likewise, the Empire blew up Alderaan and Caamasai plus a half a dozen other worlds. In other words, there's no great swath of atrocities we see "off-camera" and I say this as an Anti-Imperialist.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 2/17/08 7:22pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	I'd say the Vong likely trumps the Empire......Are we counting droids too? -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 2/17/08 7:39pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Robimus posted: GrandAdmiralJello posted: And even then, we should be careful what we mean by evil. All the evils of the First Empire aside, more people died under the NR than under the rule of Palpatine. So even moral judgments can't tell the entire story. There is something of a difference between death by Vong invasion as compared to death at the hand of your own ruler, who should be looking out for your best interests. The New Republic didn't choose to have the Vong invade. Death while fighting for your freedom is one thing, death because your leader trys out his Death Star on you is another. The Emperor was on the first Death Star? Really? The correct comparison to draw would be between deaths caused by overzealous subordinates versus deaths caused by self-interest and greed. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 2/17/08 7:40pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	The buck stopped at Palpatine in the Empire. The responsibility was his. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 2/17/08 8:24pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Rouge77 posted: The buck stopped at Palpatine in the Empire. The responsibility was his. Na, how many people did we actually see him kill? Only really four Jedi, none of the other stuff was his fault. He wasn't there....... . Palpatine was used by his underlings, I can't believe I didn't realize that earlier............ -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 2/17/08 8:50pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	How was it his responsibility if he was not made aware of it? Is it a world leader's fault if a police officer roughs up a civilian somewhere? That's the equivalence, in terms of scale, of a single planet along the entire galactic tapestry. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 2/17/08 8:53pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: The correct comparison to draw would be between deaths caused by overzealous subordinates versus deaths caused by self-interest and greed. Death Star the novel retconned Palpatine had full support of it.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 2/18/08 9:55am Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: How was it his responsibility if he was not made aware of it? Is it a world leader's fault if a police officer roughs up a civilian somewhere? That's the equivalence, in terms of scale, of a single planet along the entire galactic tapestry. So the murder of two billion people is equivalent to a police officer roughing someone up in galactic scale, huh? Destroying Alderaan was not a police action. It was a war crime and should be recognized as such............ -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 2/18/08 10:49am Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	Robimus posted: Destroying Alderaan was not a police action. It was a war crime and should be recognized as such............ Besides, in the EU we have Palpatine giving the direct order for... 1. The destruction of Dentaal. 2. The elimination of Caamasai.
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BobaMatt Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/18/08 11:29am Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/18/08 11:30am (1 edits total) Edited By: BobaMatt
	I was thinking this thread was getting derailed - we know Palpatine's Empire was a culture of evil - and so I went back to first post to make sure: the question appears to be about the nature of the Empire in Legacy. I have to reject one of your premises from that first post, Charles: you say that Fel's Empire is not the real Empire, that Krayt's is. The problem I have with this is that it discounts the good that was done in between. I don't think I'm being completely clear, so I'll try to explain...we know Palpatine's Empire was evil, it was run by a Sith, and bad people did very well while good people tended to get trod on. Then the Remnant were the NR's allies and became part of the GA. Then the Empire reestablished itself as a more-good-than-bad entity that was friendly with the GA. Krayt's usurpation is almost irrelevant, if we're merely discussing the history of the Empire, because that's exactly what it is: a usurpation. It has nothing to do with the essential nature of the Empire; in fact, it has deliberately interrupted the flow of it. As far as the Empire is self-determining, it was on the good road. But perhaps it could be said that monarchy attracts the power hungry... -----signature----- DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11 As Father and Son (An AU RP) http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10 Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
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LtNOWIS Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 2/18/08 1:46pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/18/08 1:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: LtNOWIS
	Ah yes, Humbarine. The Core Founder invented by Curtis Saxton solely so he could have its crust be melted by the Invisible Hand. Anyways, it could've been less populated than Coruscant. Coruscant was kilometers deep in some places, with virtually no ground visible. If Humbarine's planet-wide city had the building density of say, San Antonio, Texas, than it would be a lot less populous than Coruscant. We also don't know the size of the planet, or if it had any oceans. (San Antonio has 1/10 the population density of New York City.) But yeah, it's still an ecumenopolis that got BDZ'd. Grievous did it, not Palpatine, but Palpatine started the war, and kept it going. Fun exercise in math: Coruscant had 50 times the population of Byss. Byss had 10 times the population of Alderaan. Alderaan had 80 times the population of Carida. Carida had 25 times the population of the Death Star. Crazy, huh? -----signature----- A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 2/18/08 1:49pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good?
	The estimates for the populations of ecumenopolises in EU are always far too low or else there are really huge uninhabited areas on them. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 2/18/08 4:19pm Subject: RE: Romancing the Empire--- Will the Empire remain Evil or Turn Good? - Date Edited: 2/18/08 4:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
	Charlemagne19 posted: GrandAdmiralJello posted: The correct comparison to draw would be between deaths caused by overzealous subordinates versus deaths caused by self-interest and greed. Death Star the novel retconned Palpatine had full support of it. Not exactly. The Emperor gave him permission to use it, but he did not authorize the destruction of Alderaan in particular. The RD is not retconned. Robimus: This line of argument has been followed many times before. The Galactic Empire contains a million member systems. If each member system had the population of Earth--and this is a very low estimate, because there exist plenty of highly populated worlds with far more than six billion people--then the entire galactic population would amount to six quadrillion people. That's a six followed by fifteen zeros. Now, let's look at the population of Alderaan--two billion. That's a rather mind-boggling number for us to fathom, but let's compare it to the overall galactic population, shall we? It ends up being one six billionth of the overall galactic populace. Or, in our terms, one person out of the six billion on Earth. Would a world leader really be responsible if one of his subordinates killed someone, somewhere? Would he even be notified? Highly unlikely. So why is it that Alderaan matters at all? Especially when its destruction was expressly unauthorized and performed regardless of Lord Vader's veto? -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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