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Author	Topic: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/6 8:50am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 11/6 8:54am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	While I doubt Imperial Agent will be at the top of my list of things to play initially (first comes Force-users, then comes big guns, then finally I might get around to this and Smuggler), the graphics definitely seem to be stepping up with these recent screenshots. I very much like their attire too; it isn't flashy or heavy armoured, and yet it still looks cool. Like the Jedi Knight last week though, the blonde chick is, however, also anorexic. Just LOOK at those ARMS, I mean, sheesh. Dangerously thin female role-models for a role-playing game aside, on the whole my first impressions of the Agent are much better than I thought they'd be. It's clearly the Imperial smuggler-variant, but it seems like it should provide a rather different storyline. I quite like the polarisation they're going for too: the Empire gets military Agents and roguish Bounty Hunters; the Republic get s military Troopers and roguish Smugglers. Nice story/class mix-up rather than both getting roguish stealth classes and military trooper classes. --- Anyway, moving onto Drew... nice to see him working on the Jedi storyline. I suppose as far as "canon things" go, the Jedi storyline will inevitably be the "core" one that gets recorded in the Essential Chronologies of tomorrow, so it makes sense for the more experienced video game script writer to work on it. Not that I'm sure he won't be having a say in other things too, but makes sense for the Jedi story to be written first and other things woven around it, rather than vice-versa. Having just said that, it is one of the things that leaves me curious how they actually will go about the Sith storylines. Will playing as a Sith Warrior just be like taking the dark side ending in any other Star Wars game and be more of a dark side Infinities thing? That's what I'm expecting, but it'd be pretty novel if they came up with a dark side ending that could still happen in a "KOTOR1 could have still had a dark side ending even when you played KOTOR2" kind of way (not that the canon ending of KOTOR1 is in doubt anymore). Trivial as it is, I'm glad to see the "comic book blue swirly stuff" around the Jedi's hand in the small shot at the top of the article. I'm sure we've seen that screenshot before, but it occurs to me that I like that they're giving Force pushes and things more "sparkly stuff" to make playing as a Jedi feel as fun as playing as a Sith. Sure, their hands didn't glow blue in the films, but it's not like it doesn't happen in Legacy either, so it's a nice effect just to make people want to play Jedi as much as they'll want to play Sith for the Force lightning SFX. I see we're definitely going for the prequel Jedi Code though with love and romance not being encouraged. I suppose it's nothing necessarily new, as it does seem to be a philosophy that comes and goes throughout the eras, and since it's still relatively new maybe it just has been in flux as a major political dispute with every new Grand Master having their own stance on the matter since KOTOR? I like though that all these things are being recognised as not necessarily black and white, meaning the questline will hopefully have a lot of choices open to let you either shape out like a good little Jedi who never does wrong, or take more of a rebellious Anakin (either of them) route. --- Getting to Threat to Peace... Braden was after some schematics? Hmm... I wonder who he stole them off, as he gets around a lot, and has been getting on the wrong side of basically the entire cast. Mad Wookiee? Check. Satele? Check. Grand Master? Check. Sith? Check. If we've seen him steal the schematics though, then off the top of my head I can't actually remember when he picked them up. Interesting though to hear that Baras gave the order to sabotage the truce and attack the Envoy. I assumed that would have been Angral. Unless Dar'nala was lied to. This may explain why Baras was assassinated though (well, assuming he's dead). Funny, as I thought Baras was the more "benevolent" Sith archtype who was there to portray what a Sith Lord can be like when they don't actually agreed with the crazy sorcery the Dark Council is plotting but just in it for a more authoritarian new galactic order. This though suggests that as good a little Sith as Baras may have been compared to the raging madmen like Angral, he's still a Sith and still evil, which actually is rather nice to know, as it means even if you want to be a "good Sith" you're still going to be playing a corrupt and immoral character. --- Nice to see the Dantooine Enclave again. I'm guessing that'll be in the game then. --- Funny to hear the Senators who are trying to defend the treaty are the ones being taken out though. This makes me wonder how much time has passed since the treaty and these issues. We're now into Act 3 of the webcomic, so I'm starting to wonder whether this isn't meant to be the day after the treaty was signed but actually sometime later on. The Sith wanting to sabotage their own peace deal straight away is a bit strange. Then again, I suppose it shows that the Sith aren't all in agreement about it, and that maybe there are a number of loose cannons (like Baras it would seem) who are stupidly trying to rekindle the flames before they're actually in any position to carry on the fighting... actually, that would explain why the assassin who took out Baras looked like one of the Dark Council people, as presumably the Council are the ones who called for the treaty, whereas Baras was just the hothead who wanted to carry on a hopeless war. Though, I also wouldn't be surprised if perhaps the truth is that the Sith didn't need to sue for peace after all, and perhaps that might be why Baras didn't understand why they were giving up, so wanted to kickstart the war and kick the Republic while they were down and push to take Coruscant for real. The Dark Council, however, know what the Emperor himself is planning, so maybe Baras's problem was that he wasn't seeing the big picture, and that the Emperor doesn't want the Empire as we've seen it so far to win... ...but wants his True Empire to win. No would-be-emperor wants to simply install his tools in power. Better to wait until he is ready to return and claim the galactic throne for himself.
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 11/6 9:55am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Zorrixor posted: I see we're definitely going for the prequel Jedi Code though with love and romance not being encouraged. I suppose it's nothing necessarily new, as it does seem to be a philosophy that comes and goes throughout the eras, and since it's still relatively new maybe it just has been in flux as a major political dispute with every new Grand Master having their own stance on the matter since KOTOR? I like though that all these things are being recognised as not necessarily black and white, meaning the questline will hopefully have a lot of choices open to let you either shape out like a good little Jedi who never does wrong, or take more of a rebellious Anakin (either of them) route. I'm no MMO player but wouldn't possible romance for the Jedi be a plus? I mean wouldn't it encourage more players? -----signature----- "Head of State, a Sith is just a Jedi who's gone off his meds."-Natasi Daala
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/6 10:53am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 11/6 10:59am (2 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	It would, yeah... plus, AFAIK, I think it would be a first time for an MMO too, as I don't think I've ever seen an MMO with a companion driven story like that. And it appears to be the idea, just presumably it will be an Anakin-Padme clandestine romance behind the Council's back. Well, either that or if you go public with it you being regarded as a rebel who risks falling to the dark side through his attachments. I actually got the feeling reading Drew's bit that he was describing Satele. If it wasn't for that fact she'll presumably be another 10-20 years older and a Jedi Master by the time of the game, I'd almost conclude that she might be the "canon character" who does stuff (to take WoW as an example, in, say, the Illidan fight, you don't kill Illidan, Maiev does. Which is not to lessen your role, just she deals the final blow and gets the last words). Given Satele will be grown up though, I'm just guessing she might still be the rogue hothead who might serve as a focal point for players who turn against the dogmatic ways of the Council and choose a more liberal approach to the Jedi Code.
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/6 11:29am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Better to wait until he is ready to return and claim the galactic throne for himself. But that is exactly what he is doing! I mean, honestly, I cannot for the life of me see any difference or separation between the Emperor and the Empire. They fight for him, they obey him, they worship him, he created them... Anyway a thought hit me...how are they going to do expansions? The nice thing about Warhammer and Warcraft is that they can pull one of their bazillion factions or races to use as villains...and most fantasy or sci-fi mmos could just make up new ones. But the Star Wars galaxy only has the two powers...the Sith and the Republic. Where could a credible threat come from? Even if they do pull a villain ball and make the Emperor attack his own subjects, then that still only covers one expansion. Extra-galactic invasions? More minor race faction uprisings? (example: Mandolorians turn on both factions, or Echani, or Hapes or the Chiss or the Wookies or what-have you) Droid uprisings? I guess they could keep opening up fronts in the war...but that would get old fast... Also, how could expansions work with individual story arcs and such..."Well, I usurped the Emperor but now the Ewoks are invading and the Emperor wants me to go fight them..." -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Xicer Registered: Aug '08	Date Posted: 11/6 12:33pm Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Drew Karpyshyn posted: But the path of uncompromising virtue is a hard road. Take the whole “Jedi must avoid emotional attachments” thing. Love, romance – the Council has decreed these feelings must be denied. Drew, you're breaking my heart. -----signature----- "Just before your arrival, Moneo and I were discussing Infinity." "Poor Moneo." --Leto II and Malky, "God Emperor of Dune"
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/6 12:45pm Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 11/6 12:56pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	I think the reality we're just going to have to accept with the romance stories is just that the "ordinary romance" stuff will be left for the other classes. They're not going to want them all to be the same, so one way to make the Jedi story different is to make it more clandestine compared to how, say, the Smuggler will probably be a lot more traditionally open and in-your-face, so to speak. Given they'll want Jedi to have their own story that's unique, I suppose it was somewhat inevitable that they'd want to make use of all the different possible romance storylines across the different classes. ...which does leave me wondering what the Sith Warrior variant will be, as I imagine the Sith would actually encourage that kind of thing. It just might be rather less, uh, well, to do about "love" and more about selfish possessiveness. MercenaryAce posted: Better to wait until he is ready to return and claim the galactic throne for himself. But that is exactly what he is doing! I'm just still unconvinced whether we're currently seeing the True Sith Empire or merely a more recent advanced guard that has built up on its border regions. The Dark Council are a bunch of hooded wierdos who refuse to show their faces, whereas Baras and Angral are your average ordinary Dark Jedi looking Sith Lords who are neither 1300 years old nor anything particularly special, just your typical Sith knight archtypes. So far, all we've seen are planets the True Sith Empire has reclaimed since its reemergence, including Korriban. With the Republic, they've had no qualms about revealing Coruscant and Tython early on; whereas with the Sith, the best they've shown us so far is good old Korriban. But the Sith capital? Unless they're saving it for a later update, which I don't necessarily rule out, but the general secrecy they're keeping means it could well still remain hidden until the game itself. We've just seen the Jedi Grand Master assassinated in the webcomic, whereas the most they're showing of the Emperor is this shadowy figure, suggesting even someone playing Sith apprentice may not even know who their own Emperor truly is. The Dark Council is his voice; he remains shrouded in mystery. We're all guessing he's going to be a descendant of the Exiles who has rebuilt the Sith Empire as a pureblooded regime in which the taint of Sith hybrids have been cleansed and pure Jedi blood has been restored. However: what if we're wrong? What if the Emperor is in truth a Kissai Lord and this entire war has been a setup to bring down both the Jedi and Dark Jedi? And thus re-establish the true Sith Empire? The byproduct of this is it means the story remains full of surprises for both factions, wheraes if in six months there is a timeline update that reveals all about the Emperor, sure, it tells Sith apprentices what they'll know from Level 1, but it spoils things for Republic players for whom the Emperor is meant to be unseen and unknown the way Revan and Nihilus were. I'm not saying that specific plot is going to happen, only that there could still be many twists and turns like that which we currently cannot begin to guess about. There were probably few people when WoW started who ever imagined the Horde and the Alliance would end up fighting to take down the same supervillain. Given BioWare RPGs nearly always have a major twist in them, the biggest way for that to happen would be for the "Sith Empire" we're seeing to be no more the True Sith Empire than Exar Kun or Revan's were. The Emperor may have revealed his existence this time and his Hands (i.e. the Dark Council) may have directly sparked the revival on Korriban... but where are all the shadowed worlds on which the Empire has been building the past 1300 years? So far, all we've seen are worlds that have recently been claimed from the Republic and conquered by the Sith. The actual True Sith Empire itself though remains behind closed doors currently. Anyway, as far as expansions go: I'm not sure what to expect either. I suppose it depends what they actually plan to do at release. Lots of people expected WoW to carry off where WC3:FT left off... but it didn't. We've had to wait years to finally catch up with Frozen Throne and get to finish off Arthas. TOR is really going to depend on whether the game at launch is actually about defeating the Emperor or is just about "Episode I" of the Great War, so to speak. Will the "ending" of "TOR" be about defeating the Empire? Or will it just be about saving Coruscant and "destroying the Death Star"? They might leave actually defeating the Emperor and his Empire once and for all for the expansion. Makes people more likely to buy the expansion as a result, whereas if TOR at launch gives us ROTS and/or ROTJ, then we already know how the main story ends, so won't have much more reason to continue. My anticipation is for the launch game will be more akin to ANH. Or, to use a BioWare example: Mass Effect, which, curiously enough, was actually a lot like ANH when you think about it. You take down one Reaper (or Death Star), only to still need to take down the others in the sequels. I'm still half expecting either the launch game or the expansion(s) to be more like the Mandalorian Wars Redux. The Imperial puppet Mandlore is dead, so either they replaced a puppet with... another puppet, or this new Mandalore is not a puppet and is planning to betray the Sith. If that happens, I'd not be surprised to see Mandalore as one of the end game bosses either for the launch game or for an expansion, depending on if and when the Mandalorians potentially decide to go "Kark it, we're gonna take you all on!!!"
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/8 10:18am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	I still don't see much a difference, Zor. Regardless of whether or not this is the "True True Sith Empire" or not, they work directly for the Emperor and were created by him. The Emperor attacks them...well, not only is he needlessly reducing his own forces but he has created his own enemies and essentially doubled the amount of effort he would need to rule the galaxy....especially since he could rule threw them. Now, if the Council turned on him and the Emperor had a hidden Praetorian Guard, that would be different.... Anyway, I agree completely with you about expansions... Though it makes me realize they are really going to have to work hard for raiding enemies. Even if the Sith emperor does betray the Sith and whatever, that is still only one type of enemy to raid against. Players like variety in their enemies. Look at wow....in Wrath alone you had Scourge, Trolls, Ironborne, Old Gods, Nerubians, Vykrul and so on and so on... Though I suppose a raid doesn't always have to be a big story enemy. Maybe we could just loot the temple of the Order of the Terrible Glare or or rescue a diplomat from Tusken Raiders or something every once and a while. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/8 10:39am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 11/8 10:47am (2 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	I get stumped for further enemies too... Emperor... Mandalore... Dark Council... I suppose they'll just invent new things the way WoW invented a whole ton of stuff (or at least hugely expanded on really minor points from the original games) that nobody had thought of (e.g. the Old Gods). I can maybe picture planet-specific raid bosses should there be more to things like the Balmorran Resistance or the Mantellian Separatists than just some minor rebellions. This is one of the reasons why if there aren't any Red Sith in the game it seems like shooting themselves in the foot, as they'd be a great way to have another end game raid that was totally different to just Dark Jedi with lightsabers, as instead they'd be red Massassi freaks with pikes who hurl fireballs at you. If they go down the WoW route, I guess there will be more than enough possible EU influences to draw on should they want to get really obscure (Ssi-Ruuvi? Vong scout ship? Aing-Tii?). MercenaryAce posted: I still don't see much a difference, Zor. Regardless of whether or not this is the "True True Sith Empire" or not, they work directly for the Emperor and were created by him. The Emperor attacks them...well, not only is he needlessly reducing his own forces but he has created his own enemies and essentially doubled the amount of effort he would need to rule the galaxy....especially since he could rule threw them. There's a specific analogy I've got in my head but I can't seem to think of it off hand... That said, one analogy would simply be the Republic and the Chancellor. In this case, it's the Empire and the Emperor. In the Clone Wars, Palps was not just a double agent but a triple agent, leading both the Republic and the Separatists to destruction so that the [Sith] Empire could rise again. In TOR's case, I basically could hypothetically picture a scenario where the Emperor is leading both the Jedi's Republic and the Dark Jedi's Empire to their doom so that the Red Sith's true empire can finally reign supreme, taking revenge on all [Dark] Jedi. It'd be far from the first story though where the villain turned out to actually be in cahoots with another faction altogether. In a way, Warcraft 3 had a similar storyline when the Scourge turned out to just be the tools of the Burning Legion, only for the Scourge to then turn against the Burning Legion, and so on. Bad guys have a habit of turning on their own for an even more dastardly scheme than they openly let on.
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/8 11:24am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Well, actually, now that you mention it, one of the blogs explicity said they were going to use these guys: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Morgukai They are pretty obscure, so that gives me hopes. Personally, I am still hoping red Sith will be a playable race. In the Clone Wars, Palps was not just a double agent but a triple agent, leading both the Republic and the Separatists to destruction so that the [Sith] Empire could rise again. In TOR's case, I basically could hypothetically picture a scenario where the Emperor is leading both the Jedi's Republic and the Dark Jedi's Empire to their doom so that the Red Sith's true empire can finally reign supreme, taking revenge on all [Dark] Jedi. Taking revenge...on a group he created. Anyway, I don't think Palps situation is different: he wants to openly control the Republic, so he sets up a situation where they will accept his rule. Besides, it isn't like he shows up with an army of Sith to attack both factions, he just plays them against each other until he can take over one and wipe out the other. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/8 11:30am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Ah, the Morgukai. Yeah, they seem like the sort of people who could turn out to be more than just "some random mobs to kill" but actually another end game faction to battle. A droid planet/raid could be fun too... finally do that M4-78 place that got cut from KOTOR2, catch up with the droid society that G0-T0 was a part of, etc.
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/8 11:48am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Alright then, let's brainstorm: Red Sith (Sorcerers of Tund?) Morgukai Droid faction of some kind (Droid rebellions, pseudo-CIS) Hutts (just because we does business with them doesn't mean we can't fight them occasionally) Mandolorian Other force using groups (I have some in mind, but don't know how to spell any of them) Corporation (pseudo-CIS, Czerka Corp etc...) Generic Pirates Sithspawn and cultists in some old temple Iridoronians and/or Echani/Sun Guard. Black Sun/Exchange/similar crime group Onderon Beast Riders Yushan Vong scouts Nagai/Tof/Ssi-Ruuk? (a stretch I know...) Oh, speaking of the Echani and Mandolorians, a person on the official forums had a great idea for Republic and Sith classes: the Echani Warrior for the Republic, focusing on elegance and unarmed combat while the Mandolorian Gladiator focuses of heavy armor and brutal melee weaponry. Not going to happen, but it would be very cool. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Kalphite Registered: Sep '09	Date Posted: 11/11 5:43am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	I agree...finding stuff to add for new patches/expansions would be difficult I could easily see Rakatans as being involved in the game...to me it always seemed a little ridiculous that the sole survivors of the 'infinite empire' would've been restrained to one planet. Sure, I get it, the 'slaves' of each planet rose up and rebelled, but there's gotta be more somewhere. And they would make for an interesting story/end-game raid.
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tjace Registered: Feb '08	Date Posted: 11/11 8:57am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Yes, and they should put those mind-traps to good use. -----signature----- "It's not about the legacy you leave, it's about the life you live." -- Mara Jade Skywalker 3300 BBY fanfic: http://boards.theforce.net/before_the_saga/b10475/30374242/p1 Aurë entuluva! <\/>
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 11/13 8:29am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
	Rakatans and mind traps...not bad. Anyway, new update is out...not much new since we already knew about the agent, but this stood out at me: The heart of the Empire consists of millions of subjects, descendants of the original exiles who settled Dromund Kaas. Looks like we have our Sith capital. I have a gnawing feeling this contradicts the Essential Atlas...and maybe I am reading it wrong...but still... Anyway, the Imperial Agent has the most original aesthetic so far...well, I can't say that exactly, but their look seems more inspired by cyberpunk than anything from the Star Wars movies. I like though, the tench coat and gas mask look (now I just need a conical straw hat and all my favorite clothing items will be in one place). Also, I like their ability where they set up a shield in front of them...while Star Wars is full of energy fields, I don't think I have ever seen them in a grid pattern before. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Zorrixor Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 11/13 8:56am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 11/13 8:59am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
	Ohh... Dromund Kaas... I like. Not as cliche as Ziost, nor entirely new... very nice. Plus we've rarely seen it either. The only place I really remember is Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith. I gather there's been some later stuff written in to base the Prophets of the Dark Side on it, but aside from that I don't think we've really seen a lot of it (aside from maybe the odd cameo level in a few games). What's the possible Atlas problem? Is it something the Atlas says or simply the location? If it's simply location, then I think the most logical explanation is just to say that Dromund Kaas is far removed from the main area of Sith Space on the Z-axis, even if on the top-down X-Y grid references that the Atlas gives us it might look next door to something. Given we're destined to there being this big fat True Sith Empire "lurking" somewhere in the shadows, I expect just saying it was "above" or "below" rather than "to the side" of other known regions is perhaps the easiest way of explaining discrepancies. In effect it'd be like how the Drow lurk directly beneath inhabited cities in the Underdark: they're right there all along, just hiding in the worlds on the outer rim of the base of the galactic plane rather than the edges. I may be speaking total prattle though, as I haven't got the Atlas to hand to know exactly what the issue is?
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