Author Topic: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Magnuskn  734 posts
Registered: Jul '02
43715_Shado Vao
Date Posted: 7/13 12:21pm Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Yeah, I can already see the "LFG cruiser Flashpoint, light side only! PST!" messages.

But what I was getting at was less the flashpoints, which are leveling instances, but the endgame, of which we know really very little at the moment. I still fear that we´ll get the annoying raid grind from WoW, with the hardcore/casual divide WoW is so plagued with. Let´s just hope that Bioware can think up something else, which somehow incorporates story into the endgame, without making it inaccessible for casual players.

 

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Zorrixor  4364 posts
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 7/13 12:46pm Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 7/13 12:53pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
Potentially I can't necessarily see any reason why the 5-man/10-man/25-man versions of the same instance like WOTLK has done couldn't work. The problem WoW still suffers from, however, is that despite them making big changes with WOTLK itself, the patches have somewhat slipped back into making the highest end game zones raid only again.

I think the problem is it's somewhat unavoidable given the way the WoW community has grown up with the game, making it very hard now to come in with a sledgehammer and say to the raiding community that the entire nature of the development teams' goal has changed. If there was a 5-man to take down Arthas, I can see that causing no end of complaints. In a brand new game? TOR isn't up against the same wall of existing expectations, so potentially can try something a bit different. Will that something have its own problems? Definitely. But they can still try to learn from WoW's mistakes.

Blizzard have to a certain extent, as they've come a long, long way from the pre-expansion game when they mostly just took what the outspoken community of hardcore PvPers and raiders said for granted, whereas ever since BC they've recognised the casual crowd is actually the bigger one. But that original outspoken community is still outspoken, so they're always having to play a careful balancing act... as I'm sure they also realise that that same outspoken community will also be the people who probably will keep playing long after the more casual crowd migrate to a different game.

Placate the masses who will only play until a better game comes along... or placate the addicts who will continue playing for years? It's not an easy thing to answer really. BioWare at least are in a position to try to cater for both crowds from the get go. Frankly, the very notion of there being NPC companions at all tells me that they're going to try something new, even if it doesn't work out. There were companions in NWN and the NWN2 expansions after all... not that I ever used them personally. That's the battle for them: make companions worthwhile, without making the game into ezmode.

What I'd not mind from a solo perspective perhaps would be if they just made, say, "2-man" instances or something, i.e. you, a friend, plus 2 NPCs each to bring you up to 5. Frankly, as useless as an AI bot sounds, there are few times in WoW where I think the game is actually all that hard at all. And when it is... that's because of the boss's AI. Most of the time though it's just spamming your tank/heal/DPS classes fixed role.

 

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MercenaryAce  2804 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 7/13 2:29pm Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Something else struck me about Flashpoints and lasting consequences:

What if you want to play one again? To get better loot, to help out a friend, nothing better to do, or maybe even because it is fun...
Can you? And if you can, does your second choice matter at all? Do you have to sit through the talking scene every time? what if you don't want to talk again, but your are with someone doing their first run?

 

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Magnuskn  734 posts
Registered: Jul '02
43715_Shado Vao
Date Posted: 7/14 12:18am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Zorrixor posted:
Potentially I can't necessarily see any reason why the 5-man/10-man/25-man versions of the same instance like WOTLK has done couldn't work. The problem WoW still suffers from, however, is that despite them making big changes with WOTLK itself, the patches have somewhat slipped back into making the highest end game zones raid only again.

I think the problem is it's somewhat unavoidable given the way the WoW community has grown up with the game, making it very hard now to come in with a sledgehammer and say to the raiding community that the entire nature of the development teams' goal has changed. If there was a 5-man to take down Arthas, I can see that causing no end of complaints. In a brand new game? TOR isn't up against the same wall of existing expectations, so potentially can try something a bit different. Will that something have its own problems? Definitely. But they can still try to learn from WoW's mistakes.

Blizzard have to a certain extent, as they've come a long, long way from the pre-expansion game when they mostly just took what the outspoken community of hardcore PvPers and raiders said for granted, whereas ever since BC they've recognised the casual crowd is actually the bigger one. But that original outspoken community is still outspoken, so they're always having to play a careful balancing act... as I'm sure they also realise that that same outspoken community will also be the people who probably will keep playing long after the more casual crowd migrate to a different game.

Placate the masses who will only play until a better game comes along... or placate the addicts who will continue playing for years? It's not an easy thing to answer really. BioWare at least are in a position to try to cater for both crowds from the get go. Frankly, the very notion of there being NPC companions at all tells me that they're going to try something new, even if it doesn't work out. There were companions in NWN and the NWN2 expansions after all... not that I ever used them personally. That's the battle for them: make companions worthwhile, without making the game into ezmode.

What I'd not mind from a solo perspective perhaps would be if they just made, say, "2-man" instances or something, i.e. you, a friend, plus 2 NPCs each to bring you up to 5. Frankly, as useless as an AI bot sounds, there are few times in WoW where I think the game is actually all that hard at all. And when it is... that's because of the boss's AI. Most of the time though it's just spamming your tank/heal/DPS classes fixed role.


Oh, the general idea of raiding in big groups definitely is workable, otherwise Blizzard wouldn´t be doing those raids anymore. And I don´t expect them to change that anytime soon, although the newest raid, Crusaders Coliseum, seems to be going into a more casual direction again, with no trash between the five bosses.


But as for KOTOR, the general principle won´t apply anyway, because I don´t see myself whacking on a giant Sith Lord with 10 - 25 people at once. The main problem I see for endgame raiding in SWTOR is a.) too much time investment b.) accessibility c.) story relevance d.) loot distribution and e.) raid size

As for time investment, ideally a raid shouldn´t be longer than two hours to complete successfully. Many people have social duties and cannot invest the full four hours you are normally expected to show up for in a raid.

Accessibility also is very important for me, if the raid is too difficult for many people, they will be shut out from an important part of the game. Many a elitist hardcore gamer would whine incessantly if "scrubs" or "bads" were allowed to raid, too, but they pay the same money as a hardcore gamer. It´s one of those constant arguments on WoW boards, but contrary to real life MMORPGS are only games, after all. Time investment = Rewards, IMO.

Story relevance is another conondrum. If raids are not accessible for many normal players, they should also not be relevant to the overall story. WoW raids are essential for the storyline, having many of the biggest lore figures as opponents for the players. This should be avoided at all costs, unless the general game audience can participate, instead of some selected few with too many time on their hands.

Loot distribution should not be as in WoW. Raiding over there is the end-all be-all for loot accessability. There should be alternatives which allow simple time investment for normal people ( which can be done over smaller timespans than the four hour raid ) to get good quality loot.

And finally raid size is another important element. The organization of big raids is a nerve wracking endeveavour, since people chronically have a real life and therefore sometimes simply don´t show up. Smaller raids make this easier.

As to 2ndQuests question, yeah, I do believe you´ll have to do the full dialogue again. Might not be so bad, if your partners choose different conversation options.

 

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Zorrixor  4364 posts
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 7/14 1:19am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 7/14 2:36am (1 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
Most likely if people just want to skip the dialogue, they'll just be able to spam the choices after they know what's coming. I don't expect group quests to have as many conversation choices as a solo one. 90% of the dialogue choices in KOTOR or ME are ultimately unimportant, it's only the "big decisions" that affect your light/dark or paragon/renegade alignment.

I imagine in an instance, there'll probably be a fairly linear conversation, then an option at the end to press 1 to kill him, press 2 to let him go, or whatever. So, once you've done it a couple of times everyone can just skip the conversation and spam 1 or 2.

Anyway, I agree with you that I don't really want to see a giant six meter tall Sith Lord who needs to have 25 people wail on him to knock his hit points down. That works for gigantic dragons and the like... but there's something a little lame about the idea of having 40 people spamming attacks on Darth Malak.

I'm expecting more outdoor "war" style raid zones, personally--this is Star Wars after all. I can quite easily see instances where an army of commandos and Jedi (i.e. you and 24 or 39 others or however many) have to take on a legion of stormtroopers and Sith. Something like that sounds rather fun, but yet at the same time is not necessarily crucial to the story if you don't experience it. If all you hear is from another NPC, "Did you hear about the Battle of Alderaan? The Republic got routed by a legion of Sith who captured the planet", that wouldn't necessarily require you to experience it first hand: you could be filled in on the details separately.

Would that make it boring and raiders not want to do it? Hmm... depends on the person, I guess. I don't see an issue, personally. It's not like most instances in WoW are important. Sure, Illidan and Arthas are/will be. I'm less convinced people ever cared all that much about Hakkar or other raid bosses like that--all the same, they still farmed them for the gear though. Even Yogg-Saron isn't that important to the main Scourge plot if all you care about is the main Warcraft narrative that's been building up since WC3.

So... on the whole I don't necessarily see the impossibility in the End end game content (i.e. the final boss, the Sith Emperor, Jedi Grand Master--whatever) being more accessible, but the pre-final-final boss battles perhaps (ironically) being the "harder" raid content. Its not like people raid the same instance a hundred times for the story anyway: they only do it thirty times to get the gear, so if the raids weren't the most important story battles I can't actually see why that should matter. They'd be the epic battles, rather than the duels that ultimately decided the outcome.

Battles of Genosis/Endor = Raids; Duels with Dooku/Vader = solo/5-man, or whatever.

EDIT: So, take this with a rather large grain of salt, but after following a rather big link on the front page, Amazon is claiming the release date is 31st March 2010. Bearing in mind Amazon often is just guessing, my past experience has at the very least found that they nearly always predict things will be out earlier than they are, rather than being excessively cautious; so, on that basis, we're looking mid 2010 at the very earliest.

 

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SithStarSlayer  8653 posts
Registered: Oct '03
40005_Quinlan Vos
Date Posted: 7/14 5:47am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Helmet = dumb.

The narration was sweet though.

 

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Zorrixor  4364 posts
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 7/14 5:50am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Spaceballs? confused

Oh... wait... I take it you're talking about the new Mandalore? tongue

 

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patchworkz7  3187 posts
Registered: Mar '04
41675_Mandalorian Father and Son
Date Posted: 7/14 8:38am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Zorrixor posted:

EDIT: So, take this with a rather large grain of salt, but after following a rather big link on the front page, Amazon is claiming the release date is 31st March 2010. Bearing in mind Amazon often is just guessing, my past experience has at the very least found that they nearly always predict things will be out earlier than they are, rather than being excessively cautious; so, on that basis, we're looking mid 2010 at the very earliest.


Amazon doesn't guess, it's a GIGO system, but I think they may require some sort of release date when entering info into the system, so publishers just tend to chuck in a date for release and revise later. There are a LOT of issues with Amazon's system, including the inability to get garbage out if something gets uploaded incorrectly, and a lot of instances of publishers and the like being unable to change information or get rid of annoying mistakes such as odd books that don't exist floating around (I think there's still a listing for the Gears of War book by Stephen Kent that fell through YEARS ago, and for a long time there was a listing that mashed the listings for the Kent and Traviss books together...and no one seemed to be able to get rid of those odd listings).

 

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Corusca_One  641 posts
Registered: Oct '05
48803_11 - Rebel Dawn
Date Posted: 7/14 10:40am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Personally I'm not going to expect it before 2011. There just seems too much work to do, unless they have completed a lot more than they are letting on with their current updates (which is always possible).

In my experience when a retailer doesn't know the release date of a game they stick it at the end point of that year or fiscal period? I'd be amazed if Bioware released this less than a month after Mass Effect 2 regardless.

 

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Ulicus  7359 posts
Registered: Jul '05
41990_Duron Qel-Droma
Date Posted: 7/14 11:23am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
Magnuskn posted:

Story relevance is another conondrum. If raids are not accessible for many normal players, they should also not be relevant to the overall story. WoW raids are essential for the storyline, having many of the biggest lore figures as opponents for the players. This should be avoided at all costs, unless the general game audience can participate, instead of some selected few with too many time on their hands.

I agree.

I'd like to see TOR working more like a... big open field with story paths. The story paths are more single player oriented - though I guess, since it's an MMO, they can be tackled as a team - whereas the big open field is more like "multiplayer sidequests" that feature the "big raids" that you can wander off into at any time.

 

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Zorrixor  4364 posts
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 7/14 11:52am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 7/14 12:04pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
Yeah. That's basically the same point I was getting at with my comments about how I'd like it so that "Duel with Darth Vader" was a solo end point, but that "Battle with the Imperial Army on Endor" was the end raid zone, for example. The "story" would have more than one "end zone", meaning you could reach your character's "ending", even if you weren't in the climactic duel, or the final battle, or didn't shoot down the Death Star, or whatever.

Obviously you'd then be able to go and play the others as well if you wanted... but for the purpose of "completing the game" and reaching the ending video or whatever, you'd have a number of routes to be able to feel as if you've achieved something, not be left feeling half finished. Nothing wrong with "only" getting to shoot down the Death Star, after all, even if you didn't get to kill Darth Vader. And vice versa. Nor with "only" getting to battle a legion of AT-ATs and AT-STs while you help take down the Death Star's shield generator in a massive 100 man PvP warzone.

What I don't want to see, not just because of player accessibility but also because I just think it seems lame from a storytelling perspective anyway, is 40 people wailing on Darth Malak. I've always found that rather lame in several of WoW's bosses. Sure, it works for Onyxia, she's this gigantic dragon; I can also just about swallow it with a supercharged wizard like Kael'thas; where I dislike it is when you just are hammering on a single troll warlord who just happens to have a really big axe.

If we do have the Sith Emperor as a raid boss, what I'd prefer is if it was a much more epic battle against him and a whole room full of Sith Knights and things all at the same time. But 40 players simply spamming attacks on a single 20 feet tall oversized mob has always just struck me as lame.

I'm torn on how I'd feel about there being "Sith Emperor: raid boss" and "Sith Emperor: solo quest" as two alternate endings, so to speak. Clearly there will be a ton of different endings anyway, as in one you might kill the final boss, in another you might redeem him, or whatever. So the idea of two alternate ways to take down the final boss shouldn't worry me... however for some reason it does. I suppose that's my past WoW experience talking where usually the 5-man isn't the final boss, but the raid is (e.g. how Kael'thas was not a final boss because Kil'jaden still gets summoned regardless). Going back to the Endor example, I'd prefer the story be shaped such that fictionally the Kael'thas and Kil'jaden battles took place "simultaneously", such that whichever "final boss battle" you took part in you felt as if you'd done your part and helped win the war.

The powergamers could then go and complete every single instance and get all the best gear and become uber... but by making ALL the end zones equally important, it'd help make the casuals and solo players feel like they were doing something worthwhile, without the 5-man instances feeling pointless in comparison to the big epic final raid boss. Ulduar is a fairly good example of this: if all you do is the 5-mans you don't achieve a whole lot. The only thing that actually matters in the end is helping defeat Yogg-Saron, but that's only a raid.

 

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Hendo255  288 posts
Registered: Feb '09
49059_Ganner Rhysode (811092)
Date Posted: 7/17 10:10am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?]
still waiting on today's update but in the process I found this:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/100/1004050p1.html
Have a good question for the developers about The Old Republic? Well here's your chance!
IGN will be at Comic Con talking to the panel and they have been able to set up a virtual fan driven panel of sorts. Post your questions in the comments section of that link and they're going to pick the best questions to ask the developers about the game.

Looks like lots of questions have already been thrown out there. Hopefully nothing stupid will be picked like "Typically bioware games only have females with short hair, will we get a long hair option this time?" or "will we be able to control the pitch and accent of the voices" rolling_eyes

 

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Zorrixor  4364 posts
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 7/17 11:51am Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 7/17 12:21pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Zorrixor
I expect the only questions we'll see them actually publish with be precisely the sort you just mentioned. tongue

These "Ask the devs" things always turn out to be pretty pointless like that. tired

EDIT: Random comment, but browsing some of the vids on youtube I came across this comment: "Localised instancing - When getting/handing in a quest you are the only one at NPC - MMOGAMER".

If that means what I assume, i.e. that when you're running around the overworld various parts will be instanced, rather than there just being specific instances per se, then it's a rather interesting concept. For instance, if that meant after I pick a quest up and head out into the desert to find the Alpha Womprat I need to kill that the only other people nearby would be the members of my particular group, then that would address sooooooo many problems involving campers, kill stealers, and the like.

It also might make the idea of actually going into the local cantina to pick up people to head out into the jungles to hunt your prey down an encouraged RPG approach.

My assumption is that they'd probably have the PvP servers the same as most games, with you up against everyone else wherever you go, but for the pure PvE servers the idea of far more fluid instancing of the overworld sounds like a fantastic boon. Reminds me of the sort of thing Blizzard have started experimenting with in WOTLK. The way Icecrown and Storm Peaks are instanced really has helped let the people doing levelling quests get on with the quests, without the interferrence of max level players who are just going around farming materials.

 

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Corusca_One  641 posts
Registered: Oct '05
48803_11 - Rebel Dawn
Date Posted: 7/17 3:43pm Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 7/17 3:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Corusca_One
Click me. It's a new video: The voice of TOR.

Nice. shock

Check out this thread for a detailed analysis of the stuff revealed in that update too.

 

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MercenaryAce  2804 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 7/17 5:42pm Subject: Star Wars: The Old Republic (Bioware MMO) [Was KotOR III/MMO?] - Date Edited: 7/17 5:46pm (1 edits total) Edited By: MercenaryAce
Sweet video. I am very impressed with the voice work so far, and the gameplay doesn't look have bad either.

For the comic: Well, it looks like the characters in the comic are just as confused over who shot first (aside from han) that we are. So instead of sloppy writing it looks like we have an actual plot on our hand.


It also might make the idea of actually going into the local cantina to pick up people to head out into the jungles to hunt your prey down an encouraged RPG approach.

You mean like Phantasy Star Online? I hope not, free range exploring was my favorite part of WOW.

Anyway...localized instancing. I wonder if that is anything like wow's new phasing system were certain npcs and objects only show on your screen if you meet certain criteria (like, being on a certain quest)

 

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