Jedi Council Forums - The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)

Locked Topic | Read Only Topic | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

« 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 » - Previous | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 3/4/08 8:48am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	I hazard a guess that it might be some RL quote that Ben is using there. Anyway, it feels very Christian... -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
xx_Anakin_xx Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 3/4/08 9:22am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 3/4/08 9:26am (2 edits total) Edited By: xx_Anakin_xx
	jedimasterkenobi02 posted: The BadLoved seeing Jacen again outmatched by Luke. He keeps underestimating Luke and I love that. I would love to see Luke get some ass kicking time! I mean, come on! I want to see the Jedi be what they are suppose to be, peace keeping, ass kicking good guys. Lightsaber negotiations. I want the Jedi back. See now, I would love seeing that too. But I disagree that Jacen got outmatched, that to me was the whole problem. Luke's little illusion trick was awesome - IF there had actually been a conflict. But Luke sneaks up outta no where and pulls this behind the back trick, and why? To discredit Jacen with his forces and make him a laughing stock? Well that seems lame, so we figure Luke had a much higher purpose. And Luke says he wants to catch Jacen and speak to him, and yet exactly how was that going to happen as a result of his illusion? That is not explained. Jacen gets away using civilians which Luke had not foreseen??? So the whole thing is a big flop in execution. It was a flawed Jedi plan that Allana could have extricated herself from. Too bad Luke wasn't Mando trained, he'd of caught up with Jacen for sure! But there was no "outmatching" there at all because Jacen wasn't even fighting, he was attacked unawares, and further, once again, got away. The only time Jacen didn't get away was from the Mandos - they let him go with a twisted ankle and a busted knee cap for his trouble. Let's face it, Jacen was shown to have incredible force powers by the end of NJO and even in this series he does some pretty incredible things - light, dark, whatever. But the only one he tries on the Mandos is his face disguising illusion - absolutely senseless since he has no idea who this Mando may love or if he even KNOWS the face Jacen elected to show. Jacen's POV says 'he needed just a second in order to escape' but I ask WHY? What happened to the mighty force shove? Knock the Mandos back with the force! Issue a bit of force lightning, whip out that crimson saber and take the guys head off in a Jango Fett festival of love, force kick the dude to his destiny - whatever. But no, Jacen is helpless. I just didn't buy it. The Force, be it wielded by Jedi or Sith, rule in SW, but not here and that was the problem. -----signature----- I say we put together a 'kill squad' and assassinate Darth Krayt. Who's with me?
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Myself656 Registered: Feb '08	Date Posted: 3/4/08 10:07am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	One thing I will say on the Caedus vs. Mando fight at the end... everyone keeps giving it a bum rap because Caedus was having problems. But just prior to rushing out to rescue Tahiri, Caedus had just thrown around some major force usage that left him so drained he was left slumped in his seat and could barely lift his arms he was so exhausted and he wasn't given time to recover before he faced the Mandos. The situation was totally stacked in the Mandos' favor; -Outnumbered: Two Mandos vs. One Caedus. Check. -Distracted: Also needs to rescue Tahiri, who is mortally wounded. Check. -Crippled: Caedus was still utterly exhausted from his effort to bring down Fondor's Planetary Shields. Check. -McGuffin Defense: Beskar armor neutralizes Caedus's primary physical weapon. Check. I think this is why some readers expressed the feeling that they were rooting for Caedus... because he was totally the underdog in that fight. Remove even one of those things stacked against him and I think Caedus by rights could have demolished them. Actually, I'm kinda hoping TD gives us just such a scene in Invincible. Caedus at full strength with no distractions using the Force to beat a horde of Mandos to death with their own beskar armor would be priceless. Things I liked. Jaina's arc and the fact that, at the end, she chose to take her own lessons from her time with the Mandos (ie. what the song meant to her rather than what the Mandos told her the song was... also that when she sparred at the end she was back to using her traditional lightsaber form and not the Mando fighting style), Luke/Ben, Caedus not being an absolute nutjob (or at least being able to rationalize his nuttiness), Pelleon, the return of the Chimaera, the set-up for the final book (and to a certain extent seeing how Jaina could get from here to the IK's of Legacy). Overall: 7.5/10.
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 3/4/08 11:44am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	Average score: 326.41/50 = 6.53 -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Teppler Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 3/4/08 11:49am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	VERY well said YodaKenobi. Revelations was everything I hoped it wouldn't be. This should of been the Empire Strikes Back of LOTF. The only thing decent thing here was Jacen didn't come off like a complete lunatic. 1/10 -----signature----- Retired from these boards 12/18/08
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
GenAntilles Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 3/4/08 12:41pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	Trip posted: Thrawn McEwok posted: Hmm? What're you saying, Trip? I'm saying Jedi don't know that they'll see their loved ones after death. Ben, specifically, might be able to guess that he'll probably see his dad again (given family history and all), but for every other Jedi pretty much ever? Not so much. I haven't a clue what Ms Traviss is getting at, here. Well he sees his mom after she died, he probably heard the stories his dad told him of seeing Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. Not to mention what Leia may have told him about seeing grandpa. They might not see them everytime, while they are alive, but I always thought that all the good people went to force heaven, while the bad went to chaos. Mara became one with the force then came back to guide Ben and visit Luke. -----signature----- God Bless America, Israel, and President Obama "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." Thomas Jefferson
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 3/4/08 12:52pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	GenAntilles posted: Well he sees his mom after she died, he probably heard the stories his dad told him of seeing Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. Not to mention what Leia may have told him about seeing grandpa. Like I said mentioned: they Skywalkers are a very special case. Force ghosts are extremely rare, and if Ben's stupid enough to make such a sweeping generalization based on his father's experiences... well, like I said, get the poor kid hooked up to something before he forgets how to breathe. GenAntilles posted: They might not see them everytime, while they are alive, but I always thought that all the good people went to force heaven, while the bad went to chaos. Nope. This is a pretty entrenched piece of fanon, so I wouldn't be surprised if Ms Traviss was referring to this, but no: that's not how it works. We don't know precisely how it works, but all indications are that individual consciousness ceases to exist after death, unless special measures are taken (Force ghosting, Sith techniques); that is, all beings wind up in the same 'place,' which is 'one with the Force' from whence they came. Essentially. Chaos and the "Netherworld of the Force" seem to be two mythological takes on this state, but they're certainly not literal destinations. At any rate, death is as much a mystery to the Jedi as it is to us. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
GenAntilles Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 3/4/08 1:00pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	Nope. This is a pretty entrenched piece of fanon, so I wouldn't be surprised if Ms Traviss was referring to this, but no: that's not how it works. We don't know precisely how it works, but all indications are that individual consciousness ceases to exist after death, unless special measures are taken (Force ghosting, Sith techniques); that is, all beings wind up in the same 'place,' which is 'one with the Force' from whence they came. Essentially. Chaos and the "Netherworld of the Force" seem to be two mythological takes on this state, but they're certainly not literal destinations. At any rate, death is as much a mystery to the Jedi as it is to us. Where did the whole consciousness ceaces to exist after death come from? Where in cannon is it concretely stated that that is what happens? Becoming one with the force doesn't mean becoming part of the Borg, I mean Force, Collective. We see force ghosts all the time with their personalities. How can they have personalities if the Force has removed all of it? And Yoda states Qui-Gon came back from the Netherworld to speak to him. -----signature----- God Bless America, Israel, and President Obama "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." Thomas Jefferson
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Trip Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 3/4/08 1:23pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	GenAntilles posted: Where did the whole consciousness ceaces to exist after death come from? Where in cannon is it concretely stated that that is what happens? For starters, Revenge of the Sith... QUI-GON: With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. GenAntilles posted: We see force ghosts all the time with their personalities. How can they have personalities if the Force has removed all of it? Like I said, Force Ghosts are special cases and very, very, very rare. GenAntilles posted: And Yoda states Qui-Gon came back from the Netherworld to speak to him. Like I said-- he's speaking metaphorically. This debate is best continued elsewhere, anyway; the point is, whatever happens after death, Jedi are as much in the dark about it as we are. -----signature----- RIP Jacen's Crotch 1991 - 2008
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 3/4/08 2:15pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	Average score: 327.41/51 = 6.42 -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/4/08 2:26pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	Trip posted: GenAntilles posted: And Yoda states Qui-Gon came back from the Netherworld to speak to him. Like I said-- he's speaking metaphorically. I doubt that. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 3/4/08 3:28pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	YodaKenobi posted: Superwickedawesomeness GenAntilles posted: Where did the whole consciousness ceaces to exist after death come from? Where in cannon is it concretely stated that that is what happens? First, CANNON GO BOOM. Second, AotC novel: "It was Qui-Gon. Yoda knew it was Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon was dead, had become one with the Force! One could not retain consciouness and sense of self in that state" RotS novel: "With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness." As Trip has already said. The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader: A section mentioning how Anakin can feel his consciousness slipping away into nothingness before Obi-Wan turns up and rescues him. I've not read this, but I was told that's what happens. -----signature----- This is an imaginary story... aren't they all supposed to fit together, though? An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense. Recipient of Golden Ewok™ and Golden EwokTrooper™
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 3/4/08 3:45pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	Trip posted: I'm saying Jedi don't know that they'll see their loved ones after death. Ben, specifically, might be able to guess that he'll probably see his dad again (given family history and all), but for every other Jedi pretty much ever? Not so much. I haven't a clue what Ms Traviss is getting at, here. vague nod Perhaps Ben's meant to be young and naive? It'll probably annoy you to know that Marvel Star Wars #92 featured scenes set in the afterlife... Prince Denin, who I think had been dead for a year or two, welcomed his sister Vila into the afterlife, and took her to Yoda to begin their Jedi training... Rouge77 posted: I hazard a guess that it might be some RL quote that Ben is using there. Anyway, it feels very Christian... Good point. It does sound familiar. - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Lex Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 3/4/08 3:55pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
	Is this a perfect book? No. Is it one of the worst SW books ever published? Not even close. My biggest fear heading into the book was Jaina’s characterization. I wasn’t particularly fond of how Traviss wrote Jaina’s limited appearances in Bloodlines and Sacrifice, and was wary of how her much larger role in Revelation would be portrayed. I was pleasantly surprised. Sure, there are some aspects I might have done differently, but nothing deal-breaking for me. Jaina was everything I expected her to be: powerful, effective, smart, witty, perceptive, and strong-willed. Did she defer to the Mandos with less snark than the usual Jaina? Of course. She went there and asked for their help. If she mouths off they’ll toss her out on her rear. Her behavior around the Mandos was wise, not out of character. For all we compare Jaina to her father, she’s her mother’s daughter too. And her time on Mandalore was every bit the Organa diplomat, right down to biting her tongue when she needed to. Her decision to train with Fett makes perfect sense. Jag gets Alema with a one-trick gimmick; Jaina needs a lot more than that to take down Jacen. She needs training he’ll never expect, not just a gambit. (Training from someone else; not merely some Trickster gimmick she came up with on her own.) And Jacen surely would never expect her to learn from Fett. It’s the ultimate thinking outside the box. That said, I don’t think it was necessary to describe Boba as a great Jedi hunter. There’s little if any support for that in his backstory. And more than that, it’s not necessary to make the plotline work. All Jaina needs is training Jacen would never expect. Even if he’s “only” the best living bounty hunter, Fett fits that bill – simply because he’s Fett. So to me, the Jedi hunter aspect seemed gratuitous. The use of Mirta, Gotab, and Beviin as foils for Fett was very well done. While Fett’s interaction with Sintas also seemed a little extraneous, I did appreciate that in the end it connected up to Jaina’s storyline exactly as I’d thought it should – by holding up the mirror of Fett’s life to Jaina, and making her see that he’s a miserable, lonely man; by showing her the life she does not want to end up with herself. I still don’t think Traviss “gets” Jaina as well as Allston and Denning, but she did her justice in this book. For me, that’s a win. As for the rest of the book, I thought the political plot was well done. It’s great to see the Remnant back in play. Too bad about Pellaeon, but I liked his portrayal. Niathal using a clear war crime to make her move against Jacen fit her character perfectly, IMO. I’m indifferent about Daala’s return. The fanboy in me wishes the Irmenu drumbeat code had been to Soontir Fel and the Empire of the Hand, but oh well. The authors obviously have something else in mind for the Remnant in Invincible (and beyond), and I’m eager to see what that is. Ben’s subplot was interesting. At one level, I don’t think it was really necessary. By the end of Fury, they all know Jacen is evil. Whether he killed Mara or not doesn’t really matter. And I think, deep down, they all know he did it – they just don’t want to face it. So I think Ben’s plan to get the evidence and prove it does give the family a sense of closure they wouldn’t have had otherwise. But it does say something about Ben’s character, and the emotional weaknesses he still has, that he thought that kind of closure was important. And maybe he was right about the rest of the family needing the closure, too… Caedus is off his rocker. Very reminiscent of Vader on Mustafar in ROTS, making rationalizations up as he goes, explaining how everything will be dandy once he gets just a little bit more power and everyone finally listens to him. The evil lunacy of it all was really fun to read. I really hope we get to see his POV about Jaina when she arrives to fight him in Invincible. That will be entertaining. As for the writing craft itself, I thought this book didn’t live up to Traviss’ potential. I don’t mind the choice to use tight third-person limited POV. I think it’s reasonable to expect SW fans to understand that POV narrators are flawed, and to interpret the story for ourselves, not just rely solely on the POV characters say (or think) on the page. That said, at times the book leaned too heavily on internal monologue, at the expense of dialogue and action. In the aggregate, the book felt to me like it was written in a bit of rush, perhaps under a looming deadline. It had the feel of writing to hit the points on an outline, instead of the product of imagination. There is, IMO, a marked contrast with True Colors, which felt like a story which flowed from fully germinated daydreams. Revelation hits the beats, but it’s not alive in the same way. Perhaps that reflects Traviss’ relative lack of familiarity with the era and its characters, whereas the RC storylines are essentially her own. Regardless of the reason, it’s too bad. Some of Traviss’ work is truly inspired: Hard Contact, the Vader short stories, City of Pearl (in her non-SW series), True Colors. Revelation didn’t get there. Coming on the heels of Fury, which I view as Allston’s best SW book to date, and Inferno, which was a masterpiece from Denning, the contrast was even more noticeable. I was prepared for Jaina’s portrayal to ruin the book for me. It didn’t. Overall, the characterization and plot were very good, with isolated exceptions; the weaknesses are mainly impressionistic problems in execution, not with the underlying story. Despite its flaws, the book is a fun read and a great story. 8/10 -----signature----- Return to Bolis Island (J/J wedding, post-LOTF) http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29571370/p1/ ----- Christie Golden FTW!
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
RossN Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 3/4/08 3:56pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 3/4/08 4:01pm (2 edits total) Edited By: RossN
	Thrawn McEwok posted: Trip posted: I'm saying Jedi don't know that they'll see their loved ones after death. Ben, specifically, might be able to guess that he'll probably see his dad again (given family history and all), but for every other Jedi pretty much ever? Not so much. I haven't a clue what Ms Traviss is getting at, here. vague nod Perhaps Ben's meant to be young and naive? It'll probably annoy you to know that Marvel Star Wars #92 featured scenes set in the afterlife... Prince Denin, who I think had been dead for a year or two, welcomed his sister Vila into the afterlife, and took her to Yoda to begin their Jedi training... Rouge77 posted: I hazard a guess that it might be some RL quote that Ben is using there. Anyway, it feels very Christian... Good point. It does sound familiar. - The Imperial Ewok To be fair a lot of the supposition about the afterlife seems guesswork by the Jedi rather than total knowledge - presumably even Force Ghosts can't truly know what would happen to them if they became 'one with the Force'. As for the book I will need a while to sort my thoughts into a proper review. I do know one thing though: I had to force myself to read the final forty pages. I am not a Mandalorian fan going in and I really dislike them now. -----signature----- “For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.” ~ John Greenleaf Whittier Darkness on Daram: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/27776590/p1/?12
	Locked Topic \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

« 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 » - Previous | Next | Reload