Author Topic: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
ChildOfWinds  6268 posts
Registered: Apr '01
14696_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/5/08 1:38pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 3/5/08 1:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
dp4m

Windy -- this is actually the best Luke and Ben you've seen in quite some time so, since you dislike Jaina anyways, the Luke / Ben stuff is good.

So I'm supposed to buy a book to read a couple of good Luke/Ben scenes?

And it's not Jaina I dislike. I dislike the Jaina that we've been given since Dark Nest and the goddess days of the NJO.

 

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Charlemagne19  26817 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 3/5/08 1:40pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
dp4m posted:
Windy -- this is actually the best Luke and Ben you've seen in quite some time so, since you dislike Jaina anyways, the Luke / Ben stuff is good.


I do give kudos to one thing.

Luke gives an answer to Ben's "Empire" question.

 

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dp4m  36470 posts
Registered: Nov '01
13878_Luke Skywalker Dark Empire
Date Posted: 3/5/08 1:47pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
ChildOfWinds posted:
dp4m

Windy -- this is actually the best Luke and Ben you've seen in quite some time so, since you dislike Jaina anyways, the Luke / Ben stuff is good.

So I'm supposed to buy a book to read a couple of good Luke/Ben scenes?

And it's not Jaina I dislike. I dislike the Jaina that we've been given since Dark Nest and the goddess days of the NJO.



Yeah, but you don't like anything else anyways, so why NOT buy it for the fifteen pages you care about? tongue

 

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DarkScythe  421 posts
Registered: Jun '02
19057_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 3/5/08 1:50pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
dp4m posted:
ChildOfWinds posted:
dp4m

Windy -- this is actually the best Luke and Ben you've seen in quite some time so, since you dislike Jaina anyways, the Luke / Ben stuff is good.

So I'm supposed to buy a book to read a couple of good Luke/Ben scenes?

And it's not Jaina I dislike. I dislike the Jaina that we've been given since Dark Nest and the goddess days of the NJO.



Yeah, but you don't like anything else anyways, so why NOT buy it for the fifteen pages you care about? tongue


Or they could just read those pages in the store and avoid contributing money to a book they'll hate otherwise.

 

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Robimus  3717 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:18pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
ChildOfWinds posted:

Everyone in the book seems to denigrade the Jedi. While it makes sense for Boba Fett to do this, it doesn't make sense for Niathal, Pellean, Jaina, or Luke to do so. And NO ONE seems to defend the Jedi. There is NO BALANCE given.



Can you point me to the quotes/page numbers where Pellaeon, Jaina and Luke put down the Jedi? Niathal goes to Luke to get his help. Daala is another character that has no reason to like the Jedi so her comments to Fett were fine to me. Tarkin was her lover and it could be easily argued that she feels Luke was responsible for his death, as well as the death of the Empire.
Every character in his book was not spouting Jedi hatred, infact it was mostly Fett and Jusik. Lets be fair and reveiw what was in the book, instead of reviewing all of Karen's work as if it all appeared in this book.

 

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Rouge77  7467 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:22pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
But where's the balance: Characters who criticize the Mandalorians and the Empire, bring up Fett and Daala's past and challenge their claims? confused

 

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GoA  335 posts
Registered: Dec '07
41206_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:36pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Robimus posted:
Can you point me to the quotes/page numbers where Pellaeon, Jaina and Luke put down the Jedi?


I think it's more the tone of the words they use when discussing the Jedi.

In various scenes, Jaina's questioning everything she's ever learned as a Jedi. Not thinking, "how can I improve on what I already know", but "wow, all these years I was such a fool. I should have been born a Mandalorian!!!"

And I've noticed that in Traviss' books, Luke always seems to have no answer as to "what it means to be a Jedi". Worse, he seems to see the other side, when someone points out that the Jedi thinking is flawed.

I tried to find the page and quote for Pellaeon, but I couldn't. But I recall him and Daala having a conversation in which they both make snide comments about Jedi/Sith starting wars again.

 

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Robimus  3717 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:41pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Rouge77 posted:
But where's the balance: Characters who criticize the Mandalorians and the Empire, bring up Fett and Daala's past and challenge their claims? confused


Who is going to challenge Fett and Daala's claims when they were talking amoungst themselves?

Now, I would have liked Jaina to have a bit more fire, but I write it off because of her, "Your not here to ask to many questions. Your here to learn from Fett", attitude. She went to him to be trained, not antagonize him.

 

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Charlemagne19  26817 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:44pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Robimus posted:

Who is going to challenge Fett and Daala's claims when they were talking amoungst themselves?


Jaina could stand up to Boba Fett and show some ****ing backbone from her father's side....or mother's side.

Or Grandfather.

Apparently, she got her personality from her Paternal Grandmother.

Robimus posted:
Now, I would have liked Jaina to have a bit more fire, but I write it off because of her, "Your not here to ask to many questions. Your here to learn from Fett", attitude. She went to him to be trained, not antagonize him.


Actually, if Jaina didn't dignify any of the Mandalorian's rejoiners with a response, she'd be acting in a very Jedi like way.

Yet she actually gives them credence.

 

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Rouge77  7467 posts
Registered: May '05
6464_Anakin Solo
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:48pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Robimus posted:
Who is going to challenge Fett and Daala's claims when they were talking amoungst themselves?


The author. It's the author's job to create balance. To insert characters, situations and comments so that we don't end up with just biased Mandalorian and Imperial propaganda.

Robimus posted:
Now, I would have liked Jaina to have a bit more fire, but I write it off because of her, "Your not here to ask to many questions. Your here to learn from Fett", attitude. She went to him to be trained, not antagonize him.


Yet he antagonizes her. And Jaina really isn't a character who tends to be meek when she is antagonized. She tends to respond aggressively. We saw that both in Bloodlines - by the same author - and in Fury.

 

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Lord_Hydronium  6303 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:56pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Charlemagne19 posted:
Apparently, she got her personality from her Paternal Grandmother.

What do you have against Jaina Solo, Sr.? tongue

 

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magelord2200 
Registered: Jul '06
Date Posted: 3/5/08 2:56pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Good Stuff-

Sane-yet-insane Jacen: It's great to have the Jacen of Sacrifice back, as opposed to the near-lunatic monster he'd suddenly morphed into in Fury, who was far more of a cackling villain than I would have liked. Every action he considers repellent, but it makes sense in a twisted, extremely Machiavellian sort of way.

Pellaeon: Sad to see my favorite character go, but at least he went out with a bang. Most of his lines were awesome ("Life is full of disappointments") and in this book more than any other he came across as a warrior struggling with the demands of being old. His death scene was chilling, but still extremely fitting for the character and where he'd been.

Daala: Darksaber was the first EU Star Wars book I ever read, and so when reading the book, for most of it I was amazed with Daala's character: strong, intelligent, something that the Empire needed. Then I was stunned at the circus of unbelievable events that led to her defeat at the end of the book, and felt somewhat cheated. Needless to say, Revelation was a breath of fresh air for me in this regard. Finally, she's portrayed as competent, and conducts herself in the manner her character should have when she was first created. However, she's still not a nice person at all. The discussion she had with Fett after the battle reminds us of her true allegiance, and sets her up nicely to be the antagonist in a future series.

The Battle of Fondor: Best space battle in Star Wars since Emperor's Spear. Period.

Mara's Force Ghost: When she first appeared to Ben, that was a very chilling moment. I didn't have any trouble with her not speaking, because I've always seen Force ghosts as accepting that their loved ones have to come to the answers on their own. After all, if Force ghosts could just tell everyone everything, it'd be very boring. I think Karen handled Mara's appearance very well.

Jaina: Finally, truly coming into her own as a heroine. She's had the role in the past, especially in Destiny's Way, but now it's her destiny to be the Obi-Wan style perfect Jedi, which may or may not involve killing her brother. I thought her conflict over this was very well highlighted in the book, especially at the end when she makes peace with the fact that she may very well have to kill him in the end.

Luke: Small role, but tearing apart a StealthX with the Force is very impressive no matter which way you slice it.

Ben: He's continuing to grow, and into a very respectable hero. Not his dad, aunt, uncle, or cousins, but his own person. Together w/ Jaina, I can now see the future generation beginning to hold down their own books post-LOTF (but then again I think Jaina's been ready to do that for a while)

Fett/Mandalorians: Karen's managed to get me to be interested in Fett and the Mandolorians, and that is an extremely major accomplishment given that I basically despised them before LOTF began.

Niathal/Politics: Being an international relations major, I liked the politics parts of the book a lot, and Niathal's character arc is excellent, one of the better ones in the series IMO. The scene after the minelayers get blown out of the sky was particularly well-written, as she begins to realize the costs of the game she's playing.

Tahiri: Her character is actually much like Jacen's--her grief has been ruthlessly exploited by a character with shady-at-best motives, in order to forge her into a weapon pointed at the Jedi (if the Vergere/Sith story is correct, at least). Then again, I think White-Eyes might end up being Anakin, and if so that could cast her motivations in a different light (we never did find out what went on during her Dagobah exile, did we?)

Not-so-good Stuff

I've only got two major complaints. I found the politics sections to drag a bit at times--they were very interesting, but from time to time they seemed to go on for just a bit too long.

Also, I did miss the total lack of the Jedi Council in this book, which was strange as Karen featured them in both Bloodlines and Sacrifice. It would have been nice to have Kyp, Corran, or even Cilghal get some fighting time instead of just Luke.

Still, I enjoyed the book greatly.

9/10

 

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Darth_Lex  3896 posts
Registered: Nov '02
44424_Roan Fel
Date Posted: 3/5/08 3:05pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Rouge77 posted:
Robimus posted:
Who is going to challenge Fett and Daala's claims when they were talking amoungst themselves?


The author. It's the author's job to create balance. To insert characters, situations and comments so that we don't end up with just biased Mandalorian and Imperial propaganda.

That's absurd. The author's job isn't to spoonfeed us with how to feel about a story; the author's job is to tell a story and let us decide what we think about it.

Are Fett's and Gotab's views on the Jedi completely misguided? Of course! We don't need a character to tell us that. We know it already. This is Star Wars!

There is nothing wrong with an author presenting a view of the universe which is clearly wrong - and leaving it to the readers to reach that conclusion for themselves, instead of spelling it out for them on the page.

I find it incredibly ironic that Traitor, which presents perhaps the most controversial views of the Force anywhere in SW through the teachings of Vergere (and Jacen's POV interpretations of them), is frequently lauded as one of the very best EU books of all time - despite the fact that, from the moment of its publication, legions of fans insisted that Vergere's "there is no dark side" view was canonically wrong (if not downright evil). And despite the fact that subsequent stories have vindicated their claims.

Yet Revelation, which present a controversial perspective on the Jedi, is lambasted for daring to contradict the canonical intention of Jedi heroism. Despite the fact that legions of fans are (correctly) insisting that this perspective is highly skewed (if not downright canonically wrong).

To be clear - I don't think Revelation is close to Traitor in terms of literary merit in the prose. But I do think they are far more parallel thematically than anyone is acknowledging. Yet one is lauded, the other damned.

Rouge77 posted:
Robimus posted:
Now, I would have liked Jaina to have a bit more fire, but I write it off because of her, "Your not here to ask to many questions. Your here to learn from Fett", attitude. She went to him to be trained, not antagonize him.


Yet he antagonizes her. And Jaina really isn't a character who tends to be meek when she is antagonized. She tends to respond aggressively. We saw that both in Bloodlines - by the same author - and in Fury.

And here's another irony. Yes, it's true that Jaina is ordinarily rather witty, sarcastic, and assertive in her personality. She's got a sharp tongue, and ordinarily doesn't hesitate to use it.

Yet when she goes to Mandalore, requests Boba Fett's help, and then acts deferential and respectful while being given the training she asked for, it's claimed that this is a sign of weakness. When in fact it's a sign of just how strong Jaina's personality is! Like her mother, she's able to be the consummate diplomat when she needs to be. She's able to turn off her usual snarky aggressiveness and become a respectful pupil. That's not weakness, that's incredible force of personality.

 

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Charlemagne19  26817 posts
Registered: Jul '00
6408_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 3/5/08 3:13pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Yet Revelation, which present a controversial perspective on the Jedi, is lambasted for daring to contradict the canonical intention of Jedi heroism. Despite the fact that legions of fans are (correctly) insisting that this perspective is highly skewed (if not downright canonically wrong).


Possibly because the author has stated that the view professed is 100% her view.

 

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Robimus  3717 posts
Registered: Jul '07
13691_HK-47
Date Posted: 3/5/08 3:13pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Darth_Lex posted:

Yet when she goes to Mandalore, requests Boba Fett's help, and then acts deferential and respectful while being given the training she asked for, it's claimed that this is a sign of weakness. When in fact it's a sign of just how strong Jaina's personality is! Like her mother, she's able to be the consummate diplomat when she needs to be. She's able to turn off her usual snarky aggressiveness and become a respectful pupil. That's not weakness, that's incredible force of personality.


Yes, thats how I feel as well. She knew she'd have to put up with some critism from Fett but wanted his training. Now her internal point of veiw could have been fleshed out a bit better, but overall I don't think its nearly as lopsided as it has been made out. I'm just glad I'm not the only one happy .

 

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