Author Topic: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
QuentinGeorge  4763 posts
Registered: Dec '03
48582_Kaan (60609)
Date Posted: 3/3/08 11:54am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Except Juhani was not canonically a lesbian, so your point falls flat there.

Yes she was.

 

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Zorrixor  4355 posts
Registered: Sep '04
42757_Prince Xizor
Date Posted: 3/3/08 11:59am Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
My point wasn't really so much to do with the canonicity of it as simply the exposure. If you take Mass Effect as an example, Commander Shephard can be female and can have a lesbian encounter with Liona. The way these things usually go, Shephard is probably canonically male, but thats irrespective of the exposure the game gave to the issue.

Admittedly Mass Effect was criticised in the media but that was more to do with the sex scenes and the nudity than the existence of a lesbian romance subplot. It highlights though how homosexual characters (particuarly female) aren't uncommon anymore.

 

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Obilieveinme  1664 posts
Registered: Feb '05
7264_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 3/3/08 12:01pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
6.48 is absurd...just absurd. It deserves a atleast a 7 just for being well written.

 

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JediHobbit  6496 posts
Registered: Mar '02
44383_Jawa
Date Posted: 3/3/08 12:06pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers) - Date Edited: 3/3/08 12:08pm (1 edits total) Edited By: JediHobbit
8/10

I enjoyed the hell out of this book. It was great to see Daala come back and take everyone by surprise with the MCPS on her ships. I thought Ben's stuff was exceptionally well done, showing his maturation into adulthood. I really liked Niathal's personal dilemma with her situation, and I like that she's set up a government in exile.

Sure, I had a few problems with the book. Not nearly enough Luke/Jedi action. I'm not really sure why Jacen cared so much about rescuing Tahiri (who isn't getting the greatest character treatment herslf). And I thought Jaina's training could have been more in depth, though I do get the impression most of it was "off camera."

Admittedly, this book focused a lot on Fett and Mandalorians, but I've sort of made my piece with that a long time ago. It's what she's best at writing. And she does it well. So let her. Do we begrudge for Allston bringing Wedge, Rogues, and Wraiths into the stories? No. Do we hate Stackpole everytime he has Corran as a central character. Not that I can recall. So what if she favors them?

Yeah, more Jedi action would have been nice, but she more or less accounted for what they've been doing in the mean time. Most are moving them to the new base, the rest helped the Fondorians with their sneak attack and then covered med ships and the like during the battle. Sure, they could have taken a much more active role (again), but I'm not going to blame one author for that when it's pretty clear that it's a flaw inherent in the LOTF. Jacen could (and should) have been stopped back in Sacrifice, if not earlier. All that needed to happen was for Ben to suck it up and tell someoone other than his mommy. There you have it. Jedi team up and take him out. Instead, we have to deal with four more books of Jedi largely wussing out and not doing what needs to be done, which all comes to a head with Bard'ika laying the verbal smack down on Jaina at the end of the novel.

The problem isn't with one author abusing the Jedi, it's with Del Rey expanding three books worth of plot into a nine book series.

But when all is said and done, I enjoyed reading the book. I couldn't put it down and I enjoyed the ride. So sue me. Bring on Invincible.

 

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YodaKenobi  11644 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '03
49382_Anakin Solo (1005091)
Date Posted: 3/3/08 1:34pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Rogue_Follower posted:
YodaKenobi posted:
Revelations


You, sir, win the boards.


Cool. I was wondering when I would finally win these things cool

Thanks, everyone else happy

 

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s65horsey  22538 posts
Title: EUC and Arena Moddess
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49063_Corran Horn (81109)
Date Posted: 3/3/08 1:37pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Obilieveinme posted:
6.48 is absurd...just absurd. It deserves a atleast a 7 just for being well written.


Except one of our main gripes is that it wasn't well written and YK's post points these out.

 

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GoA  335 posts
Registered: Dec '07
41206_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/3/08 2:02pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
YodaKenobi posted:
Fantastic post


I have to say that, without doubt, this was one of the most well put posts I've read. It put into words what I couldn't, about my feelings on how Traviss' writing reflects the Jedi poorly and Mandalorians as near-perfect entities.

If Traviss never writes another Star Wars novel again (other than her little RC series), I'll be ecstatic.

 

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GenAntilles  502 posts
Registered: Jul '07
40303_Clone Trooper (ARC) Captain Fordo
Date Posted: 3/3/08 2:20pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
GoA posted:
YodaKenobi posted:
Fantastic post


I have to say that, without doubt, this was one of the most well put posts I've read. It put into words what I couldn't, about my feelings on how Traviss' writing reflects the Jedi poorly and Mandalorians as near-perfect entities.

If Traviss never writes another Star Wars novel again (other than her little RC series), I'll be ecstatic.


I seem to recall Ben reflecting on how blessed the Jedi are that they know they will see their loved ones after death. That other species say they will, but only Jedi know they will see them. That to me seems like a big plus she pointed out the Jedi have. One that I haven't seen other authors point out. Not even the Mandalorians have that kind of assurance.

Also the Mandalorians seem like great people becuase from the Mandalorian perspective they are great people. The Mandalorian POVs are not going to be, "We are evil, we are nothing compared to the great Jedi." It's going to be, "We're great, Jedi stink." Also when a person enters a new culture they tend to look for good things about it. I've been to numerous countries and I know how Jaina would feel being a stranger in a foreign land. One tends to look at the benefits of the new culture, simply to try and fit in.

Also since most of the Anti-Jedi speech was from Imperials and Mandalorians, who are supposed to dislike Jedi. It would be out of character for them to be saying, "You Jedi are great!" And I know a lot of people complain about people acting out of character. whistling So the fact that Imperials and Mandos aren't the Jedi's biggest supporters should be a relief in a series that is accused every day of having out of character characters.

 

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GoA  335 posts
Registered: Dec '07
41206_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/3/08 2:30pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
GenAntilles posted:

I seem to recall Ben reflecting on how blessed the Jedi are that they know they will see their loved ones after death. That other species say they will, but only Jedi know they will see them. That to me seems like a big plus she pointed out the Jedi have. One that I haven't seen other authors point out. Not even the Mandalorians have that kind of assurance.

Also the Mandalorians seem like great people becuase from the Mandalorian perspective they are great people. The Mandalorian POVs are not going to be, "We are evil, we are nothing compared to the great Jedi." It's going to be, "We're great, Jedi stink." Also when a person enters a new culture they tend to look for good things about it. I've been to numerous countries and I know how Jaina would feel being a stranger in a foreign land. One tends to look at the benefits of the new culture, simply to try and fit in.

Also since most of the Anti-Jedi speech was from Imperials and Mandalorians, who are supposed to dislike Jedi. It would be out of character for them to be saying, "You Jedi are great!" And I know a lot of people complain about people acting out of character. whistling So the fact that Imperials and Mandos aren't the Jedi's biggest supporters should be a relief in a series that is accused every day of having out of character characters.


How does that explain Jaina's POV? Or Luke's?

 

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Havac  14309 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 3/3/08 3:22pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Average score: 286.71/44 = 6.52

 

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GoA  335 posts
Registered: Dec '07
41206_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/3/08 4:18pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Havac posted:
Average score: 286.71/44 = 6.52


Can I change my original score of 7.5? After re-reading the book, and after reading similar viewpoints on here, who were better able to put my feelings into words, I can't, with good conscience, give this book a good score.

Drop my 7.5 down to a 3.5. The 3.5 is for the fact that, in and of itself, the novel was a good read. But in the context of the 9-book series, and in retrospect of Traviss' attitude toward the Jedi, I can't score it what I originally did.

 

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NelanisGhost  2190 posts
Registered: Jun '06
14535_Yuuzhan Vong High Priestess
Date Posted: 3/3/08 4:27pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
GoA posted:
Havac posted:
Average score: 286.71/44 = 6.52


Can I change my original score of 7.5? After re-reading the book, and after reading similar viewpoints on here, who were better able to put my feelings into words, I can't, with good conscience, give this book a good score.

Drop my 7.5 down to a 3.5. The 3.5 is for the fact that, in and of itself, the novel was a good read. But in the context of the 9-book series, and in retrospect of Traviss' attitude toward the Jedi, I can't score it what I originally did.


I will review later. Even though agitated with Mandos, I fgive it a solid 8. Ben's struggles brought me to tears several times. Poor kid. And jaina ia a rock. She always was. She is her mama's girl. Go SWORD!

 

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Havac  14309 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 3/3/08 4:39pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Average score: 294.71/45 = 6.55


No changing scores. Don't even ask. If you didn't like the book as much as you thought you did (I'm not sure how that works) you shouldn't have scored it as you did. If you're subject to changing your mind, you should have waited before you put up a score. We're not revising the score every time anyone changes their mind and wants to drop .03 off their score.

 

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Gabri_Jade  5088 posts
Title: Fan Fiction Archive Editor Emeritus
Registered: Nov '02
23035_Mara Jade
Date Posted: 3/3/08 4:44pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
YodaKenobi's post was one of the best I have read in all my time on these boards. Supreme kudos, YK. cool

I could probably write a post as long as YK's about why I dislike this book, but it wouldn't be nearly as eloquent. I'll try to keep it relatively short:

- The Mandalorians might well be an interesting culture. However, they have little place in this series, and Traviss has worked so hard to hammer it into our thick skulls that they are the rightful overlords of the galaxy that I am heartily sick of them. And frankly, for all Traviss's condemnation of Jedi and their powers, she's built the Mandalorians into worse Mary Sues than the Jedi ever were.

- Fett. Good heavens, everyone either reveres or fears him, yet what exactly has he done to deserve either reaction? Traviss spends a lot of time telling us how great Fett is, but precious little time showing him doing anything worthwhile. And he's sure not the epic Jedi killer that Jaina keeps saying he is.

- Even Traviss's non-Mandalorian OCs are Completely Awesome. Take Shevu, for example. Now, I don't personally mind Shevu. He's a nice enough character, and I can see how he could play a role in the story. But Traviss takes care to make sure that we know that Luke, Ben, and even Jacen all trust him implicitly. Yes, your OCs are the tops, all right. We get it.

- Daala. Really, was this necessary? Why don't we just bring Bevel Lemelisk back, too?

- The blatant, over the top, incredibly obvious way this novel served as a vehicle for anti-Jedi propaganda. Over and over and over again, in every possible way, at every possible turn, we read how inferior the Jedi are, with hardly a single word offering another viewpoint. I'm honestly left wondering why Traviss is even writing Star Wars if she holds such an amazing level of active hostility toward one of its core concepts.

- In relation to the above, YK is absolutely right when he says that this book feels more like Traviss's personal voice than that of the characters. I find that very disruptive. I can respect her point of view, but that's not why I read Star Wars books. Write the characters, please, not yourself.

- Jaina is more or less ignored for the whole series, then finally brought in for a leading role in the eighth book. Does she do anything worthwhile? No. She spends the whole book being treated like the subservient class dunce.

- I don't buy Tahiri's characterization. Wait, let me phrase that more specifically: I could see her behaving this way if she were a Sith apprentice. However, I don't see any reason for her to have gone that way. I don't even see any reason for this continuing, all-consuming obsession with Anakin. No proper groundwork was laid for this transition.

- Jacen is not a convincing Sith Lord. At all. He's either very forgetful or mentally unstable, to change opinions and contradict himself so often; worse, I can't figure out whether the authors want us to read him as a madman or whether this is their attempt at portraying a Sith Lord. He's rarely intimidating. Everyone and their brother seems to have him figured out, and at the very least, he could have been killed three times now in the series, by Luke, Carid, and almost certainly Jaina if Fett had let her (and since when does anyone let Jaina Solo do anything?). Yet here he still is. Yeah. Not exactly the sort of villain I feel like cowering before.

- Pretty much everything that touched on Mara's death. There were a few touching remembrances of her from Ben and Jaina, but everything else was insulting. Mara falls for Jacen's illusion trick and dies (even though she faced almost exactly the same thing in Betrayal and didn't hesitate for a heartbeat), but a random Mandalorian doesn't blink. Right. She reappears as a singularly ineffective Force ghost. What's with the charades deal? This whole angle could have been dropped. Thank whatever powers exist that the reunion with Luke was offscreen and I didn't have to read that being botched any more badly than Luke's ridiculous words of greeting. And YK is right: Jacen completely twisted how that final confrontation on Kavan went down, but there's not a dissenting word anywhere. And just to rub some more salt in the wound, Ben and Jaina both seem to think that their grief is tainted, and almost that Mara in some small respect deserved what she got if she dared raise a hand against Jacen. Sacrifice itself didn't make me so mad as these passages.

- Errors everywhere. The continuity was horrible. Sal-Solo was not Jaina's uncle. Traviss's LotF novels always tell more than they show, and it's often a lame and uninvolving read as a result; this book is no exception. I caught a few spelling errors, punctuation errors, and formatting errors that the editors, at least, should have caught. Ellipses and italics are both overused to the point of nausea. Traviss name-dropped pretty much every planet to ever appear in the movies, as though there are no other planets in the galaxy. I was ready to scream halfway through from characters repeating lines from the movies, and often in a self-disparaging way: "You've probably heard this before", "as I've said before", etc. Worst of all was Jaina's comment about how Fett should shoot first if he tries to take on Han; out of universe in-jokes have no business being in a fictional novel. None. And how did Han know of Jango's demise, and why would he joke about it? Ridiculous.


On a slightly more positive note, I did like the Luke and Ben moments. Even those were tainted in some way (Luke never seriously thought about the lives he took as a Rebel soldier until his mouthy adolescent son throws it in his face? Sure) and just had to name-drop for Fett (is Traviss afraid we'll forget who he is unless all the characters are talking about him constantly?), but as a longtime L/M fangirl, I was so happy to finally see Luke and Ben acting like an actual family that I could mostly overlook those bits.

I was also pleased with Pellaeon's death, despite its hinging on what I believe is faulty characterization of Tahiri and YK's excellent point that Pellaeon wasn't at death's door in GFFA time. The circumstances should have been different, but I do agree that, given a choice, Pellaeon would have preferred to die in action, and with his last breath, he made a difference. Rather a deus ex machina difference, but it sure was better than the treatment Mara got. I'll take it.

There were a handful of other small details that I liked - a beautifully worded sentence here, a decent action scene there - but overall, there were vastly more negative aspects to this book than positive.

For the sake of the Luke/Ben moments that really did mean a lot to me, for Pellaeon's decent death, and because this book at least moved faster than Bloodlines and Sacrifice and I didn't usually feel like I had to force myself to keep reading, I'll give it a 3 out of 10. But if this is the level of accomplishment that the EU aims for these days, it's in a really pathetic state.

 

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Havac  14309 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 3/3/08 4:46pm Subject: RE: The JC Lit Reviews Special: LEGACY OF THE FORCE: REVELATION (Spoilers)
Average score: 297.71/46 = 6.47

 

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