Jedi Council Forums - SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 3/22/08 3:22pm Subject: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 8/31/08 4:58pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
	In light of the recent announcement by RF over at the EUC thread, it's fallen to me to restart a thread that, to its participants, whether posting or lurking, is felt to represent the best elements of the Literature forum. The original SOS thread was started a long time ago, some 20,000 posts and 5 years ago by Skydancer, her aim was quite simple, see here: http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b10003/5698836/?10158 Then 3 years later, we had to restart it, because 10,000 posts is a hefty amount of data and we weren't inclined to simply stop talking! http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/21528302/p1/?10001 And now here we are again, a 3rd incarnation and why? Because we're not done! In the time the thread has been going the Lit forum has undergone many changes and the thread has evolved in response to them, now there needs to be a new structure: For the last few weeks, whilst it was under discussion by the Mod Squad, there was an SOS thread in EUC: http://boards.theforce.net/eu_community/b10194/28003820/p1/?564 This thread will continue and host the wider ranging discussion that SOS became known for, such as numerous comparisons of SW to other series and stories, character analyses - all the things the Mods don't see as belonging in Lit. The exact details? Well those do need to be nailed down and will probably be amongst the first order of business for this thread. Similarly, the title is an initial one only, if we it needs to be revised I'm sure one of the Mods wil be willing to take care of that, once agreed. For now I'll start the process, this thread covers: Luke Skywalker, his past, present and future Development of the galaxy he exists within, past, present and future Predecessors and ancestors. Predecessors? You've doubtless worked out that ancestors refers to Cade Skywalker, but predecessors? Well, there is a KOTOR serial running, which links to the Vector event and who knows how that may link to the future eras that impact Luke? I've no idea, but, if in doubt, hedge the bets. In any case, I think there's enough here to keep us going. If you're new to the thread, feel welcome - although do conduct yourself in such a way as you'd like to be reciprocated, ie. be polite. The discussions can get quite impassioned but it's never a brawl - if you do want that, go somewhere else, please. (If you ignore the polite request, the next response involves blasters.) JB RF: Just fixing some links... -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/22/08 5:33pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family. - Date Edited: 3/22/08 6:20pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Thanks for restarting the thread, Jedi Ben! It's great to be back home in Lit! Thanks to the Mods too for agreeing to our request to return! Predecessors? You've doubtless worked out that ancestors refers to Cade Skywalker, but predecessors? Well, there is a KOTOR serial running, which links to the Vector event and who knows how that may link to the future eras that impact Luke? I've no idea, but, if in doubt, hedge the bets. I think you mean that we know that one of Luke's DESCENDANTS refers to Cade. My bet is on Zayne being an ancestor of Shmi Skywalker, and therefore, an ancestor of Luke Skywalker! Similarly, the title is an initial one only, Yes. I'm waiting for a response from dp4m, but we MAY be able to keep our SOS Luke Skywalker title and still be able to talk about past, present and future. I'd really love to get our old title back again! This (EUC) thread will continue and host the wider ranging discussion that SOS became known for, such as numerous comparisons of SW to other series and stories, character analyses Actually, JB, unless I misunderstood dp4m's message in Community SOS, the above may actually be allowed in this Lit thread. Discussion of other universes and characters, without relating them to SW, would not be permitted. Reposting one of my last posts from Community: Starwolf76 , I prefer the earlier Bantam works. They weren't as dark, gloomy, pessimistic, and depressing. The stories were shorter too, told in single books, duologies, or trilogies. That gave us more of a variety. The NJO was only ONE story, but it took up NINETEEN books! For someone like me, who greatly disliked it, there was no other option for four whole years! What would you say is your favorite book? Least favorite book? Which book had the characterization of Luke Skywalker that you liked best? Which characterizaton did you like least? Why? Most of Luke's hangups and uncertainty seem to stem from Mara's death, killing Lumiya, and worrying that Ben would go as bad as Jacen. Right, and throughout almost the entire NJO, Luke was unsure about what to do, how to deal with the YV. He wasn't that way in the films. I can understand why he was worried about training Jaina and Jacen. Luke didn't have much official training himself, a few weeks with Yoda and a few lessons from Ben Kenobi. Plus, he was well aware of what happened to his own father. SO that early concern about training new Jedi doesn't bother me. But Luke didn't seem to hesitate as a leader of Rogue Squadron. He's smart and he's resourceful. He shouldn't be portrayed as so indecisive so often. Perhaps he will get back to his old self by Invincible. Unfortunately, I fear that Luke will be shoved aside in Invincible. I'm afraid they'll say that Luke is afraid he'll fall to the dark side if he faces Jacen after his vengeance killing of Lumiya. So I'm afraid that he'll only have a very small role while Jaina will defeat Jacen. But I really wanted it to be Luke. I wanted him to defeat Jacen, strip him of the Force permanently, and then forgive him. That's what I think Luke would do. So, Rell thought Luke would have children, not just one child. Yes, and Luke and Mara saw "CHILDREN" in their shared Vision of the Future at the end of that book. RKStriker_JK_5 Luke characterization: A little bit of farmboy naivete, some hardness but the need to see the good in people and very powerful in the Force, depending on where he is in life. That sounds like a pretty good characterization of Luke. I don't see him as particularly hard most of the time. I think of him as more compassionate, but when he's serious about something, I suppose that works. And I can agree that Luke has some of Padme and Anakin in him. I'm with you: I didn't like the NJO Jacen either. That was a very different characterization than the one in the YJK books. And there IS too much "PT stuff leaking in where it doesn't belong". That "PT stuff" is damaging the post RotJ era, in my opinion. MasterSkywalker86 well I took a peek at the new Insider good news is they have the top 100 from the databank Luke is #9 with Yoda right behind. the # 2 is Vader and #1 is the jedi order. So who are in slots 3 to 8? You're right that Lucas seems "PT obsessed". Both the Clone wars cartoon and the live action show involve the PT or post-PT period. For me, it isn't so much that Lucas wants to leave the OT characters alone, that's actually okay. But what bothers me is that he's now claiming that everything is Anakin's story, and that the SW story ends at RotJ because Anakin dies in that film. It was once Luke's story, but now everything is Anakin's and Luke's importance has been greatly diminished. Now Lucas seems overly focused on Anakin and seems to no longer care about the character who was named for him. I think C likes to think Luke in ROTJ as a very dark character...which really relys on opinion. MS, I don't really see that much darkness in RotJ Luke. I see that he has matured and grown. Yes, he slips a couple of times, but what do you expect: Luke's new at this Jedi stuff in RotJ, and he's really had only a few weeks of formal Force training. I-poodoo Be like a sniper as a writer, choose your shots and don't reveal the new and shiny powerful forcepowers prematurely wasting their dramatic effect on the bad guy's minions. That makes sense. As a reader, it's a nice surprise to see a new Force power used in action, rather than knowing or hearing about it previously. It works well that way. Luke's trick of pretending he had been killed by Jaina and allowing only his son to know that he was alive was cool! I see your points but I don't agree with the sentiment. To add to what Child said about what makes SW unique: the Jedi and the force within the context of a big epic galaxy wide war is what makes Star Wars Star Wars. I think the more galaxy-wide conflicts you have, the less impressive and more boring and tiring they seem. I think the same effect can be achieved by having Jedi, the Force, and some kind of conflict, not necessarily always a galaxy-spanning one. It gets to be too repetitive. We'll have to agree to disagree about this, I guess. And I don't think that the authors have to be "sadistic" to the characters. Make the villains tough, yes. Make the challenge great, but don't completely tear apart the characters' universe or their families. At this point, I DON'T feel that Del Rey has "somewhere in mind that's better for Luke at the end of the tale". He's already lost his wife and nephew to death; he's lost another nephew (and apprentice) to the Dark Side. He's lost many Jedi and friends to death. His son was tainted and turned into an assassin by age 13, and was tortured by his nephew. How will Luke EVER have an even slightly "happy ending"? It's impossible at this point. One line in Sacrifice that I agree with is, "...his world had ended". J. Michael Stacinsky also had many happy things happen to his characters after the Dark Times in B5. They were allowed some real victories along the way, even when things seemed darkest too. Del Rey has WAY overdone the "sadism", to the point that the characters who survive aren't likely to ever really recover.
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 3/22/08 5:56pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Jedi Ben posted: Predecessors? You've doubtless worked out that ancestors refers to Cade Skywalker, but predecessors? Anakin Skywalker? Shmi Skywalker? -----signature----- This is an imaginary story... aren't they all supposed to fit together, though? An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense. Recipient of Golden Ewok™ and Golden EwokTrooper™
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 3/22/08 6:03pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Ulicus posted: Jedi Ben posted: Predecessors? You've doubtless worked out that ancestors refers to Cade Skywalker, but predecessors? Anakin Skywalker? Shmi Skywalker? Nice to see you resisted on positing on who is the ancestor of Shmi, at least. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Teaser of Chapter 9.5 is up! Wes vs Tarfang, Gavin and the Coup, Luke and Jacen, and much more! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 3/22/08 6:10pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Sinrebirth posted: Ulicus posted: Jedi Ben posted: Predecessors? You've doubtless worked out that ancestors refers to Cade Skywalker, but predecessors? Anakin Skywalker? Shmi Skywalker? Nice to see you resisted on positing on who is the ancestor of Shmi, at least. Wait, I've been confused. I saw Ben referring to Cade and so my mind replaced "ancestor" with "descendant" and then fixed on "predecessor" as "ancestor" and got confused as to why Luke's predecessors would be something difficult to work out. I are going crazy. -----signature----- This is an imaginary story... aren't they all supposed to fit together, though? An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense. Recipient of Golden Ewok™ and Golden EwokTrooper™
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/22/08 6:11pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Sinrebirth Nice to see you resisted on positing on who is the ancestor of Shmi, at least. But I didn't in my post above.
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 3/22/08 7:23pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Well, it's good to see SOS back where it belongs, in the Lit forum. Personally, I quite like the SOS Save our Skywalker title; I actually always thought that was what the SOS stood for, being a bit of a pun. Luke as a character has been frequently poorly-portrayed in the EU; for several reasons imo: a) Luke's character arc in the OT concluded. The only way to continue to use him as a character really was the approach used by Zahn, to make him 'the first of the new'; and it was an obvious strategy, so much so that both TTT and DE simultaneously came up with the angle. However, launching an existing character on a new arc creates immediate issues. This was complicated by, b) The fact that authors typically approach the character differently. Basic portrayals of Luke in each series in Bantam varied wildly; contrast, for example, the Luke of JAT to the Luke of TTT, and you'll see what I mean. The idea of self-contained series caused a great deal of conflict; Luke as Messiah in JAT is a theme I love, but it doesn't carry on well because the theme has run its course (and the theme is also neglected entirely in Stackpole's JAT rewrite, I, Jedi). When DR got the contract, they recognised (rightly, I think) that Luke's two major arcs through Bantam - his singleness and his Jedi Order - were concluded. Instead of crafting a new arc for him, their initial response was to conclude that it was time for Luke to go. Lucas nixed the idea, and DR have been playing 'ooopsie' ever since. Shoehorning Luke into the early NJO led to a poor characterisation that has never been fully recovered from. Meanwhile, the PT's release forced a reappraisal by DR of what it means to be a Jedi, and, as the foremost Jedi, Luke was reinterpreted as a result - erroneously so. Hence the need for this thread. Luke's mischaracterisation has lessened; nowadays DR can actually come out with Luke moments like his duel with Shimrra, his battle with Raynar and Lomi Plo, and his Force-phantoms in Inferno which were never fully explained. However, the mischaracterisation is still there. Would Luke go after Lumiya in revenge? Did he do so? Is his regret a valid characterisation arc, and has it been handled well? There's still an essential place for SOS in Lit, imo. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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AnnLouise Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 3/22/08 8:00pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family. - Date Edited: 3/22/08 8:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: AnnLouise
	Thanks for this thread. The post PT changes in the SW saga, and their negative effect on my childhood crush, Luke The Nicest Guy Ever, are dispiriting. While I hold ROTS as one of my favorites (even over ROTJ), it's part of an insidious trend. The tipping point for me was Revelation and seeing a series about the legacy of the Force fail to make use of the GFFA's greatest hero of the Force - Luke Skywalker. If the SW saga becomes Anakin's story, instead of Luke's, there is a major change in the whole outlook of SW. It's not a story of heroes fighting, and ultimately winning, over the darkness; it's a story like Anakin's - a struggle against the darkness that ends in capitulation and failure. If your central figure is a severly flawed, morally weak character, IMO anything SW that comes after that be it book, game, or TV show is in that image. The PT, LOTF, Force Unleashed; flawed, morally weak characters are now the heroes. Which leaves little room for someone with a functioning conscience like Luke Skywalker. -----signature----- http://outerrimsieges.com We're a fun group http://thehungersite.com http://www.endabuse.org http://www.librarything.com Catalog Your Books Online Violence Against Women Is Always Wrong
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Darth_Hydra Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 3/22/08 8:17pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	I'd be rather disappointed if Zayne turns to out to be an ancestor of the Skywalkers. Part of the appeal of reading the KOTOR series for me is that Zayne is an underdog. Even though he's not the most powerful or skilled Jedi he's still making a difference for the greater good. -----signature----- ANAKIN SOLO WON'T RETURN!
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/22/08 8:42pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	J_K_DART Well, it's good to see SOS back where it belongs, in the Lit forum. Personally, I quite like the SOS Save our Skywalker title; I actually always thought that was what the SOS stood for, being a bit of a pun Actually, Save Our Skywalker IS what SOS stands for! And the new title IS beginning to grow on me! It also gives us more discussion "wiggle room". I'll respond to the rest of your post and AnnLouise's post (Welcome to the SOS thread, Ann Lousie) late tomorrow or Monday. Darth_Hydra I'd be rather disappointed if Zayne turns to out to be an ancestor of the Skywalkers. Part of the appeal of reading the KOTOR series for me is that Zayne is an underdog. Even though he's not the most powerful or skilled Jedi he's still making a difference for the greater good. I like that about him too, DH. If he's Shmi's ancestor, he doesn't have to be all that skilled or powerful. Luke, Anakin, and the other Skywalkers didn't get their powerful Force genes or midichlorians from Shmi, you know. We don't even know if Shmi herself was Force sensitive.
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Robimus Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 3/22/08 9:52pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Darth_Hydra posted: I'd be rather disappointed if Zayne turns to out to be an ancestor of the Skywalkers. Part of the appeal of reading the KOTOR series for me is that Zayne is an underdog. Even though he's not the most powerful or skilled Jedi he's still making a difference for the greater good. Ditto. Everything in the galaxy doesn't need to revolve around the Skywalkers. Not that I dislike them, quite the opposite, but they simply don't need a decendant in every Star Wars story told. I prefer the idea that Palpatine or Plagius created Anakin from the midiclorians. No Skywalking force users before that point. Of course I'm sure the goal of Vector will be to prove me wrong. -----signature----- I am forever seeking the damutek of Hooley Krekk Oh, woe! Oh, misery! Oh, unhappiness. Hooley Krekk where are you? . http://www.cccomiccon.com http://www.actionfigurenews.ca
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Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 3/22/08 9:56pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	I wouldn't mind having Zayne related to the Skywalkers, but don't need him to be part of the family tree. I personally think it would be awesome if Zayne was related, but Zayne's underdog nature is also part of what makes him so great. Its arguable whether Star Wars is really Anakin's story. The movies are his story, since he shows up in all six of them, and I think Lucas said so too, but its arguable how one can interpret his story. Yes, he falls (though its a somewhat tragic flaw), becomes evil, one of the more iconic fictional evil figures, but in the end, he is redeemed by the love of his son and dies in the light. Redemption is a nice concept, but there are limits. Sometimes I wish Luke wasn't so set on redeeming almost everybody, but that's part of what makes him so great. I do wish Luke would just get around to killing his nephew. Not exactly a nice thing, but... there has to be a certain point when enough is enough. We've had glimpses of how awesome Luke is during LotF, but they've had to keep interupting his moments, as if Luke was actually allowed to kill Caedus once or twice when he had the opportunity, then this series would be over a lot sooner (which would be a good thing in my opinion, but that's just me). -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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Skydancer Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 3/22/08 10:55pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Hey everyone - I'm just here to congratulate JB and CoW for starting this thread back again in Lit. Congrats!! Long Live Luke! Now - I need to hide back in my cave and hibernate - I'll reappear again in the next few years. ** POOF!!! I'm gone... Skydancer -----signature----- To LFL/DELREY: NJO = AU NOT STAR WARS!!! *********************************** Hooray to all of you in SOS!! Keep up the good fight!! *************************************
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 3/22/08 11:52pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family. - Date Edited: 3/22/08 11:56pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	George Lucas has backtracked a bit. Suffice to say, he's said that it's Luke's story, it's Darth Vader's story, it's the Droid's story, and its the story of Democracy vs. Fascism. For me, I simplify it. The Original Trilogy: Luke Skywalker's story The Prequels: Anakin Skywalker's story. Honestly, I think part of the problem with Luke killing Lumiya is that it's something that absolutely needed to be done. It's also a moment that I don't mind Luke reminescing over but I think they bundled the job. Karen Traviss retconned Fenn Shysha into knowing that Spar wasn't actually Boba Fett, so I didn't mind the idea that Luke Skywalker and Lumiya could be retconned into being lovers. Frankly, I think that would have been a much more powerful moment where Luke Skywalker consciously chooses to execute Lumiya depsite their past relationship because she's a threat to the Galactic Peace and will never repent. You could have all manner of interesting insights into Luke. * Having to deal with a Sith who refuses redemption with an intimate connection to Luke. * Having to deal with Luke knowingly and willing choosing to execute rather than capture a foe. * Having Luke struggle with the question of whether he killed Lumiya as a conscious choice or did so from his own rage. (Not that such really matters all that much) Instead, they're going a very stupid and cheap route with it.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 3/23/08 3:33am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	ChildOfWinds posted: This (EUC) thread will continue and host the wider ranging discussion that SOS became known for, such as numerous comparisons of SW to other series and stories, character analyses Actually, JB, unless I misunderstood dp4m's message in Community SOS, the above may actually be allowed in this Lit thread. Discussion of other universes and characters, without relating them to SW, would not be permitted. The question is where the line is drawn, isn't it? I read dp4m's point as being that, while he personally saw nothing wrong with comparing Luke and Sheridan, so a B5-SW comparison, it would likely go against the policy of remaining roughly on-topic. So I see the limit as being wide-ranging discussion with a Luke focus within the entirety of SW, my perception of it could be wrong though. DH, I wouldn't mind Zayne being linked to the Skywalkers, I don't care for the notion that Skywalker = Super-powerful Jedi, power by blood just detracts from the heroes in my view. Also, for the bulk of the OT, Luke was the underdog set against Vader, so it could be said the two are more alike than we may first conclude. JB -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 3/23/08 8:09am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Oh, imo what I've heard of Zayne does sound to be a Luke template of the OT style, I agree, Ben. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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