Jedi Council Forums - SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

Jedi Council Forums » Star Wars Books & Comics » Literature »

Post Reply | Active Topic Notification | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

« 97 | 98 | 99 | 100 | 101 | 102 | 103 | 104 | 105 | 106 » - Previous | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 7/3 2:11pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Marmkid: of course that only reinforces that Luke should have been able to confront Jacen without worrying about turning dark suddenly True enough, yeah. But as Stary says, it was all they could think of! Rouge: The problem to me is that Luke should have gone through all of these things already during LotF. But in there he didn't really show any real interest towards these things. He didn't want to find out, didn't want to understand. It was all simple, Lumiya had somehow made Jacen a Sith, bot needed to be taken out and that was all there was to it. And now, when no lives can be saved, he should investigate? True. But that just shows how poorly LotF was done. Charles: For me, the writing was so bad on Luke and Jacen's ends, it's really like a Rorshach blot. You can read whatever you want into it. Mine is that Im going to treat Jacen Solo as the threat to threaten the galaxy the other characters claimed he was. An irredeemable embodiment of evil. And I didn't buy that presentation for a second, tbt, Charles. I think Jacen was -meant- to be that, but was written too poorly to actually be it. Rouge: compared to the saintly Ben Skywalker who redeemed Tahiri. It was about time someone in the Skywalkers believed in redemption, imo. Charles: He's not going to be Luke's Heir. I like to think he'll have another child. Personally, I wouldn't like to see that plot for Luke, but I reckon we know our opinions differ lol! Rouge: I personally do think DR is that predictable. As do I. CoW: It's my opinion though Dart, that Luke was never really dark. He never really did anything evil, and in fact, saved many Alliance lives while on Byss. Luke purposely went to learn about the dark side to destroy it from within. In the notes accompanying DE, it even says that the more Luke learned about the dark side, the more repulsed he became, so he wasn't attracted to the dark. Luke was like an undercover agent, doing all he could to help the Alliance from "behind enemy lines". When Luke was defeated by the Emperor's last clone though, I think he lost hope that he would ever be able to rid the galaxy of the Emperor or even get away from him himself. As you said, it only took a few words from Leia (about Luke training her children) and Luke was fine. I think Leia renewed Luke's hope. Then, with Leia's help, Luke defeated the Emperor and his Force storm with Light. Oh, I think Luke wasn't dark - just darkening. He was gazing into the abyss, and the abyss was gazing back. The Dark Side is repulsive, but it draws you in all the same; but to have a chance with Luke, the Dark Side had to play differently, had to overwhelm Luke with Darkness and override his power of will. I think it's important for Luke's character that he be shown to be deeply affected by the deaths of his wife and nephews, C. I think that for Luke not to be mourning and deeply affected would be to do disservice to his character - and also a slap against the character of Mara, too. DarthBoba: I think what he's going to find is that it was his own mistakes that led to Jacen becoming a Sith Lord, or that he's going to blame himself-if he'd maintained detachment and therefore been able to detect the direction Jacen was taking earlier, if he'd slapped down Jacen's ideas in DNT more forcefully, if, if, if. I'd like it to begin with Lke in that role, but to move beyond that, to the point where Luke learned the truth and ceased blaming himself altogether. Nobody: And yeah, its hard to tell where the novels will go from here. Well, spoilers indicate Allston is beginning a new series called Fate of the Jedi. Although the thread in question debates whether or not it's going to be prequel era or between the trilogies, Allston is known solely for post-RotJ stories. I expect this to be the series following on from MF, and perhaps even to discuss the split into the Imperial Knights. Ben: Who guards the guards? I can't help but think I'd like to see a really cool response to that one - something along the lines of Pratchett's handling of it in Thud. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/3 2:17pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	colojedi7 posted: JediBen, I don't think it would be punishing the innocent to monitor them. If they have a good reason to go study other force groups, ask that they check in on a regular basis. Have them give a seminar on what they learned for the rest of the Jedi. It would certainly benefit everyone involved. The problem I see is the message it sends: We don't trust you. Now is it possible to avoid sending such a message and keep an eye on things? Certainly, it's called management and the best managers know the importance of allowing staff free reign to experiment, learn and try out ideas whilst ensuring the risks are minimised. THe question is: Are Jedi managers? Are Jedi Masters supposed to be so? I quite like the academic element you mention, but again it would need careful handling to ensure academia-style feuds and quarrels do not erupt. People think of academia as some civilised place of learning, it isn't. The other problem is: What happens when the order hits such a size the Council cannot approve or reject all requests swiftly? The solution would be delegated authority, but that raises the risks in turn. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
colojedi7 Registered: Mar '07	Date Posted: 7/3 6:14pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	JediBen, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I feel that monitoring the Jedi tells them that the darkside is real and no one is immune. Knowing that someone is looking out for you tells you the danger is real. But I can see your point too.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 7/3 9:18pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	J_K_DART posted: Rouge: compared to the saintly Ben Skywalker who redeemed Tahiri. It was about time someone in the Skywalkers believed in redemption, imo. I think Luke still believes in redemption. He and the other Jedi just don't think Jacen can be redeemed, and rightfully so imo.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/3 9:37pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	J_K_DART : I think this returns us to an element of Luke's character that was so notably missing in Invincible his desire to understand others. I'm not really sure that we can say that a desire of Luke to understand others was missing in Invincible because, as I keep saying, we really get NONE of Luke's inner thoughts or motivations in Invincible and only the few feelings that Jaina mentions (about Luke's obvious concern for Ben, for example), plus a few pieces of dialogue from Luke. This book was told almost totally from Jaina and Jacen's perspectives with a little of Ben's and Han's thrown in. As Jacen's first teacher, as his Master for several years, Luke will want to know exactly what led Jacen into the Dark Side - if only to prevent a recurrence. If that's the case though, I hope Luke won't come away with huge feelings of guilt that he might have been responsible. I don't want Luke to spend the rest of his life blaming himself for Jacen's conscious choice to become a Sith Lord. marmkid : that gets you dangerously close to the One Sith, since they were supposedly in league with Vergere a while back The One Sith will make Luke look bad no matter what. If he never figures out that hundreds or even thousands of Sith are building an Order right under his nose, he will seem weak and foolish. But if he finds out about them and does nothing about the threat or is defeated by them, (Having all of those Sith still alive and causing grief in Legacy indicate that Luke didn't successfully destroy the Sith), that would be terrible too. So Luke loses either way. But, like you, I'm hoping that there is some surprise, something big that we don't yet know about rather than Luke just trying to figure out what went wrong a couple of years earlier. The blurb at the back of Invincible seemed to hint at some kind of threat for the Jedi, I think. that is an aspect that would have been nice to see, since Luke was pretty integral to the story, yet he was treated like a background charactor with no views of what was going on in his head Yes, and I think both the story and Luke's characterization suffered because of it. And you're right that it didn't need to be written that way. Jedi Ben : * No. He didn't As you know, I agree that Luke didn't fall in DE, but you're right that the experience on Byss scared him silly. and KJA seemed to understand that he didn't but that he was damn scared by the experience, which is as it should be - Luke should have a healthy fear of the dark side but what level of fear do we determine to be 'healthy'? One in which Luke is constantly vigilant, but not where the fear is so great that it paralyzes him and keeps him from necessary action, I think. I believe Luke could have and should have faced Jacen in Invincible, for example. * Zahn's big lesson to luke he first learnt in BFC. And I'm not sure that I agreed with the lesson in either series. While it is physically impossible for one man to do everything, the more gifts one has, the more that is required of that person. So I actually understand and applaud Luke's sense of responsibility and duty to use his special gifts to help others. I certainly see that as far more noble and acceptable than Cade's choice to NOT share his talents with others. * Yep, he didn't kill his sister instantly on board Eclipse - instead he held off and that was all Leia needed to screw things up good for Sidious. I don't think Luke EVER would have killed his sister. I'll try to catch up again tomorrow.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 7/3 11:51pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 7/3 11:52pm (2 edits total) Edited By: NewStaryknight
	I've always tended to look at the first two parts of DE as confirmation on how Palpatines fear that the Skywalker twins would be a threat to him were indeed legit. That first half of DE really showed Luke and Leia as the ultimate Jedi team, and Leia wasn't even fully trained yet. I think DE really puts great emphasis on the bond that the two of them share, how they both would never hurt each other, how they compliment each others skills on the battlefield, and most of all how their always there for each other. Luke basically lost faith in himself in DE and thats what caused Palpatine to get a hold of him so quickly and almost permanently, but Lukes faith in the light and in himself returned when Leia expressed her undying faith in him. This along with the birth of Anakin Solo is the reason I feel DE is worth the read. Say what you want about the story and how it ended, but it did cement the message of the importance of family in the SW universe.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/4 8:59am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Jedi Ben : Luke does do a few dodgy acts in regard to Han and Leia, outright lying to them on Byss to get them away - but he did also tell them not to seek him and was ignored, so Han and Leia are far from blameless. Plus the fact that the reason Luke did that was to keep them safe. He knew they wouldn't leave unless they thought he was with them, so he used that doppleganger to make them think he was with them. NewStaryknight ^^Well, like a lot of people keep saying, they needed to do something to get Jaina to be the big hero, so I guess saying Luke was too tainted was the only thing they could think of. It REALLY annoys me when a character is degraded and diminished in order to let another character shine. There were LOTS of ways that they could have gotten Jaina to "be the big hero" without tarnishing Luke in the process. No hero should be pulled down to make another one look good. Incidentally, I'm kinda torn on whether Luke really fell to the dark side or not in DE. No he wasn't full on Sith Lord in it, but he wasn't really of the light either. Luke didn't do any evil deeds in DE, so I feel he didn't fall. He saved Alliance lives by destroying Imperial devastators and by sending Imperial codes to the Alliance. He did all that he could to help the Alliance win. He tried to destroy the Emperor's clones so the Emperor couldn't 'resurrect' himself again when he wore out his old body. I think Luke was foolish to risk so much, but I don't think he was ever really dark. Rouge77 : And now, when no lives can be saved, he should investigate? I don't think that there are any leads left to follow, just possibility of seeing things in a new light when he looks back. Intellectual journey, that will end in remorse at best. I really do hope that Luke doesn't come away from this blaming himself. I hope he'll find that he wasn't at fault at all, except perhaps in being too trusting of Jacen for too long at the beginning. I think Luke couldn't believe that his beloved Jacen could really go dark, so I don't think he paid close enough attention at first. And when he did, Mara calmed his fears about Jacen, for a while, at least. And then Jacen fell hard and fast. LotF was less than a year, after all, maybe even only 6 months. And what comes to the Sith Bird, Luke should have become suspicious about Vergere even before that, but the plot of DN that led to LotF wouldn't allow that. I definitely agree about that. Luke's character has been sacrificed to advance the plot far too often since the beginning of the NJO really. I don't think the intention was to made Jaina to be the big hero, but to taint her by making her to kill her own brother and in a way which was basically murder. She acted un-Jedi like, I do think Jaina WAS intended to be the hero, but I think this decision came late in the series. I think the hero was originally supposed to be Ben, or maybe a team of Luke and Ben. But I agree with you that the way the scene was written, Jaina did seem to be somewhat darkish, particularly when she thrust her lightsaber into Jacen's stomach before he even knew she was there. And she did expect that to be a killing blow. DarthBoba : Just what it was in Jacen's mind that made him willing to listen to Lumiya in the first place, I'd think. And how do you think Luke is going to be able to do that now that Jacen is dead? And as I said, I hope that Luke isn't going to forever blame himself for Jacen's fall. I hope that if he is feeling that way at the beginning of MF, that he finds some proof during the course of the book that will show him that he wasn't responsible for Jacen becoming a Sith. I don't know what that could be, but I hope that's what happens anyway. More later...
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 7/4 10:41am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Re: the idea of monitoring the Jedi - I just don't think that's feasible. A situation a Jedi is embroiled in may go in any direction with tremendous speed. Maybe have it so that, like Mace Windu in Shatterpoint, the Jedi have to leave a checkable record that cannot be altered as they go; but to have, for example, a requisitions department, makes no sense. When everything's going nova around them, the Jedi need to have immediate access to the required resources before things get far worse. The problem with management is - it takes time. Jedi are in crises. The longer the crisis continues while management consult, the worse it's conceivably going to get. Yeah, I think what they need is a 'missions log'; a dictaphone-type system that they just leave a record on as and when they get a chance, and that is randomly reviewed - or automatically reviewed, should the mission result in something controversial. The Jedi are going to expand beyond the point when a handful of Masters can assess every mission, so best to be prepared for that from the very outset. Now, that won't lead to every action being monitored; for example, Jacen's faking of the events that led to Nelani's death would still be successful in those circumstances; but nothing is ever fail-safe. The more powerful the dangerous Jedi may be, the more likely they'd inevitably find a way out of the monitoring anyway. Stary: He and the other Jedi just don't think Jacen can be redeemed, and rightfully so imo. But I'm not convinced, tbt. Jacen's death isn't convincingly the end of an Evil Villain(tm), but of somebody who still loves. And love, in SW, equals the potential for redemption. See the RotS novelisation. CoW: I'm not really sure that we can say that a desire of Luke to understand others was missing in Invincible The point I'm making, though, CoW, is that there's nothing... well... human about Luke in Invincible, or very little at least. If that's the case though, I hope Luke won't come away with huge feelings of guilt that he might have been responsible. I don't want Luke to spend the rest of his life blaming himself for Jacen's conscious choice to become a Sith Lord. I would like him to begin with the idea of guilt, and for the story to be an exploration of his resolving it. That would be good, and pleasant to see Luke's character developing in a positive way in the course of a book. The One Sith will make Luke look bad no matter what. If he never figures out that hundreds or even thousands of Sith are building an Order right under his nose, he will seem weak and foolish. But if he finds out about them and does nothing about the threat or is defeated by them, (Having all of those Sith still alive and causing grief in Legacy indicate that Luke didn't successfully destroy the Sith), that would be terrible too. So Luke loses either way. Unless there's something we don't know; for example, I sometimes wonder what Luke's reaction would be to the conflict. I think he'd accept it, and simply say that his role was to stand in the way of what was before him. He would find peace and happiness in recognising that he is alongside the Jedi of all ages, and would consider it almost arrogant of himself to assume he can prevent the need of future Jedi to do the same. I think, oddly enough, that if Luke saw a vision of the One Sith he'd not mind. He'd see it as somebody else's fight, and willingly train them for it. Stary: I think DE really puts great emphasis on the bond that the two of them share, how they both would never hurt each other, how they compliment each others skills on the battlefield, and most of all how their always there for each other. Agreed. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 7/4 11:01am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	J_K_DART posted: Stary: He and the other Jedi just don't think Jacen can be redeemed, and rightfully so imo. But I'm not convinced, tbt. Jacen's death isn't convincingly the end of an Evil Villain(tm), but of somebody who still loves. And love, in SW, equals the potential for redemption. See the RotS novelisation. I guess the only thing I can say on that regard is that Luke, Jaina and the other Jedi didn't know Jacen still had love for Allana nor could they feel any love coming from him for anybody.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 7/4 11:28am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	True, I suppose. Still, of all people I'd have expected Luke to see through it. Especially when the secret of Allana's parentage had been made known two books ago... -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/4 3:16pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	colojedi7 posted: JediBen, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I feel that monitoring the Jedi tells them that the darkside is real and no one is immune. Knowing that someone is looking out for you tells you the danger is real. But I can see your point too. I don't see it as us disagreeing really, it's not that your idea is wrong or invalid - it's a question of how to implement it without creating equally thorny problems. I mean, while I'm convinced Anakin Skywalker was hellbent on screwing himself over, it has to be said the Jedi being as suspicious of him as they were didn't help. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 7/4 3:23pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	As you know, I agree that Luke didn't fall in DE, but you're right that the experience on Byss scared him silly. * I think it works, of course, unlike some, Veitch and Anderson did work quite well together in 1994. One in which Luke is constantly vigilant, but not where the fear is so great that it paralyzes him and keeps him from necessary action, I think. I believe Luke could have and should have faced Jacen in Invincible, for example. * True, it's not an either-or thing, which it sometimes gets posited as. And I'm not sure that I agreed with the lesson in either series. While it is physically impossible for one man to do everything, the more gifts one has, the more that is required of that person. So I actually understand and applaud Luke's sense of responsibility and duty to use his special gifts to help others. * I think, if anything, it's SW fans who expect too much of Luke! I certainly see that as far more noble and acceptable than Cade's choice to NOT share his talents with others. * I'm not sure Cade sees those talents as being such. I don't think Luke EVER would have killed his sister. * If the most powerful expression of the dark side known couldn't brutally coerce Luke into it, what could? Nothing. Plus the fact that the reason Luke did that was to keep them safe. He knew they wouldn't leave unless they thought he was with them, so he used that doppleganger to make them think he was with them. * Again,L uke was acting for a good end. People tend to object to this due to the dangers treating people as means rather than ends tends to lead to, Kantian moral philosophy is dead set against it. But it can also be said Luke was not setting this up as a universally applicable option, if anything it was more of a self-sacrificial mission. JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/4 10:02pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Nobody145 : Except that Luke at least had a lot more warning about what Jacen was becoming than Obi-wan with Anakin. I'm not sure that's exactly true, N. I remember reading about Anakin killing the bloodcarver. Was that back in Rogue Planet? And he was constantly giving Obi-wan a hard time, even as a youngster. So I'm not sure that I'd say that Luke had more warning about Jacen than Obi-wan had about Anakin. I'm not even sure that Luke ever found out about how involved Jacen and Lumiya were, though I would hop that Ben told him SOMETIME. I know that Ben told Mara. They threw in way too many heavyhanded references to the Legacy comics in the last LotF book Yes, they seem to be in a huge hurry to get to the Legacy era, don't they? That really concerns me as I really do have a bad feeling about them killing of Luke in order to get to Force Ghost Luke for Legacy. I wonder if Del Rey has been noticing the popularity of the Legacy comic books and might be hoping to get to that timeframe and write novels in that period to capitalize on that popularity? On paper, the time gap between Luke's lifetime and the Legacy comics seem like enough time for the galaxy to fall apart, but it almost feels like the novels are getting uncomfortably close to some Legacy comics events, Even before the first issue of Legacy came out I said that it was set too close to LotF. marmkid it does feel like this book/ series is almost an end to galaxy wide conflict, at least in Luke's life I don't understand how LotF can end galaxy-wide conflict with Daala as CoS. I still don't understand how Luke could accept her as CoS, knowing her background as a war criminal and hater of the Jedi. I'd certainly like to see stories that don't involve galaxy-wide conflict for the rest of Luke's lifetime, but I can't see it happening until Daala is out of office.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 7/4 11:07pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	J_K_DART posted: Still, of all people I'd have expected Luke to see through it. Especially when the secret of Allana's parentage had been made known two books ago... I'm still not entirely convinced that Luke or Ben know who Allana is to them by the time Invincible happens.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 7/4 11:10pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 7/4 11:12pm (2 edits total) Edited By: NewStaryknight
	ChildOfWinds posted: I don't understand how LotF can end galaxy-wide conflict with Daala as CoS. I still don't understand how Luke could accept her as CoS, knowing her background as a war criminal and hater of the Jedi. I'd certainly like to see stories that don't involve galaxy-wide conflict for the rest of Luke's lifetime, but I can't see it happening until Daala is out of office. I think this Daala situation is the perfect set up for some Robin Hood type stories. Where Daala is the scheming dictator in power thats bleeding the galaxy dry just like Prince John did in England and its up to the Jedi to defend the innocent like the merry men did (only with no tights or campy English folk songs involved ).
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

« 97 | 98 | 99 | 100 | 101 | 102 | 103 | 104 | 105 | 106 » - Previous | Next | Reload

Jedi Council Forums » Star Wars Books & Comics » Literature »