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Topic:
SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/7 9:35pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
7/7 9:40pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ChildOfWinds
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AdmiralNick22
Don't forget that Randy Stradley said over on the Dark Horse boards that the Imperial Knights may be no more than a dozen.
Only a dozen? And didn't a bunch of them get killed early in the series?
I've been keeping up on the spoilers for Legacy, but I haven't read any of the issues since Cade had that sexual relationship with Darth Talon. I didn't like Legacy that much before, and that was the final thing that pushed me away.
First off, if the IK is limited to a dozen members, that is hardly a threat to Luke's order of Jedi Knights that by the end of LOTF had at least 12 masters and 100 Knights.
I do hope you're right about there only being a dozen Imperial Knights. Poor Luke's Order of Jedi keeps getting decimated by wars, so they can't really afford to lose too many. I do wish that we wouldn't keep losing Jedi through battles and through purges. I was hoping to see Luke and his Jedi Order start to be a useful presence in the galaxy, helping to resolve conflicts and helping those in need instead of constantly fighting and dying in wars or battling more darksiders. Because they are constantly rebuilding the Order though, there aren't really enough Jedi to make that much of a difference in the galaxy, and Luke and his Jedi can't really serve as Jedi traditionally served during the time of peace in the Old Republic. 
It's disappointing to know that the Jedi will be purged and need to rebuild yet again about 90 years after LotF.
Furthermore, I would hold judgement on Fate of the Jedi until we actually know what it is about. For all you know, it may be set in a different era.
Or it might be about finding out what happened to Zekk!  Maybe it's just the fate of ONE Jedi and not the whole Order?
As for Luke's legacy, his Force Ghost is there to guide the NJO and Cade in 137 ABY.
I believe Luke has made three short appearances in Legacy, right? And he failed spectacularly two out of the three times with Cade.
I do hope that the Jedi ARE "...about to make a big appearance in Legacy". If so, I hope they're Jedi of Luke's Order or taught by Luke or one of his Jedi instead of more Prequel Jedi. And I REALLY would like to see Ben or Allana or Jaina be one of those Jedi, as Jedi can live very long lives.
NewStaryknight
In all fairness, we really didn't get to see the POV from anybody in Invincible save for Jaina, Cadeus, and a little bit of Ben's.
No, we really didn't. But in a series in which Luke was an important character through most of the books, we should have gotten something from his point of view. LUke was actually very important in this book too. He actually planned the whole Nickel One mission, and the second one as well. He also manipulated Jacen's visions and gave Jaina a power boost to give her a better chance against Jacen. In a book in which he was that influencial and important, we should have gotten some of the story from Luke's perspective.
But I was really talking about future books. In a future book, I would like to see Luke tell the story from his point of view, told in first person.
Master-Chief-Kenobi
What if the Imperiel Knights were founded by Luke as a way of keeping tabs on the Moffs & to keep them in line & the Fel's on the throne? We do know from Legacy #25 that Jedi were not uncommon in the halls of Bastion before the Sith-imperiel War so the split between IK & jedi could have happened during Kol & Cade's time.
That's really a very creative idea, Master CK. I like it! As long as the original Imperial Knights served the Force first and not the Emperor, I think that could work. I don't think Luke would create a Force-sensitive group whose first allegiance was to the Emperor though. At least, I really hope he wouldn't!.
marmkid
you are right, we just didnt see any council meetings
That's my take on it anyway. But yes, I wish the reader could have been present in the Council meeting in which they discussed Jaina going to confront Jacen/Caedus. I think that would have been a VERY interesting discussion.
and it really did show the difference between jedi knight's personal skills, and the thought that should be put into who goes on what mission
Exactly! Those decisions should be made with care and a great deal of thought about who would be best for a given mission, and which Jedi should be paired together to make optimum use of their special gifts. That would be a good role for Luke as he "sees" which Jedi should be sent where. I'd still like Luke to go on especially difficult or tricky missions himself sometimes too though.
when Luke and Saba are on missions all the time, it gives the impression that they are not sitting in on the council
I got the impression that most of the members of the Jedi Council were involved in the mission to take the Anakin Solo. They don't have to be sitting in Council meetings all the time.
Lord_Riven
Nah, I think it will be Jaina or perhaps someone from the Empire of the Hand (perhaps the girl from Survivor's Quest)
Hi, LR! Yes, it's not likely that Luke will be the one to found the Imperial Knights. It probably will be Jaina or Evlyn or one of their descendants.
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Lord_Riven
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 2:09am
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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ChildOfWinds posted:
I've been keeping up on the spoilers for Legacy, but I haven't read any of the issues since Cade had that sexual relationship with Darth Talon. I didn't like Legacy that much before, and that was the final thing that pushed me away.
There was no relationship. It was rather a ploy on Cade's part to try to look Sithly to Krayt, but even Talon knew he was faking it. So for me it wasn't really a real relationship
-----signature-----
Legacy AU fic: Family Ties. Follow the link in the next line. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3751906/1/Star_Wars_Legacy_Family_Ties Casiah - Cade Skywalker x Marasiah Fel 'shipper (#1) Canderous >>> Boba Fett
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Master-Chief-Kenobi
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
7/8 2:51am
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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ChildOfWinds posted:
Master-Chief-Kenobi
What if the Imperiel Knights were founded by Luke as a way of keeping tabs on the Moffs & to keep them in line & the Fel's on the throne? We do know from Legacy #25 that Jedi were not uncommon in the halls of Bastion before the Sith-imperiel War so the split between IK & jedi could have happened during Kol & Cade's time.
That's really a very creative idea, Master CK. I like it! As long as the original Imperial Knights served the Force first and not the Emperor, I think that could work. I don't think Luke would create a Force-sensitive group whose first allegiance was to the Emperor though. At least, I really hope he wouldn't!.
I think Luke would create an IK order that served the emperor & not the force if it meant guarenteeing that the Empire was reformed into a peaceful & benevolant nation and prevented anything like what the moff council did in Invincible. Remember Jag & his familly are all good guys & the Moff council they rule are all evil monsters. They SHOULD have been killed or imprisioned in Invincible, in the real world they would have, but the next best thing is to assign a small squadrom of jedi to keep them in line.
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marmkid
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 7:38am
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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i dont know if i could see Luke forming a group of force users that were not jedi
maybe i could see him placing some jedi on semi-permanent duty to guard and council the moffs, but even that i think is a little out of charactor for him
he seems to be of the mind to let the force choose your paths
keeping some to guard the emperor permanently is a bit restrictive for those particular jedi
i wouldnt be surprised to see other jedi who might disagree and think this is a correct path to take
but i am not sure about Luke
i am not completely up to par on all the legacy comics, but what is the actual difference between the jedi and the IK?
do we know their complete background yet?
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AdmiralNick22
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
7/8 2:42pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
7/8 2:43pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AdmiralNick22
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ChildOfWinds:
In regards to the Imperial Knights, counting Emperor Roan Fel and Marasiah Fel, there is a total of six known surviving IK. Four were killed defending the fake Fel in issue #1, while Marasiah's master was killed a few issues later. That means that there could be less than 7 IK in 137 ABY.
You also are forgetting that Veed said in #8 that half of the Jedi Order survived.
You also have a line in either #11 or #12 that says of the Jedi Academy on Ossus that "it hummed with the mind of a thousand in meditation" or something to that affect. That puts the number of Jedi at around at least 1000 before 130 ABY and the Massacre on Ossus.
Only half the order was killed. That is a major setback, but not a purge. There could be several hundred Jedi active in 137 ABY. Luke has appeared more than three times, plus he will undoubtedly appear more.
Cade's sexual encounter with Darth Talon was nothing more than part of his ruse to get closer to the Sith. Besides, why does every Skywalker need to be so squeaky clean? Why can't we see Cade slowly develop into a true Skywalker instead?
The Hidden Temple is full of Jedi trained under the lessons of Luke's New Jedi Order. Who cares if two of the three Council members are Prequel Jedi? That means nothing more than that Dark Horse wanted to use some of its older characters to act as a bridge between series.
Master Wolf Sazen. Master Shado Vao. The two new masters introduced in #25. Plus all the background Jedi, the four Jedi Knights on the cover of 26- all this adds up to a Jedi Order that is recovering, not dying.
Do not avoid or ignore Legacy. I have a strong feeling you will regret it when the war against Krayt turns into the good guys favor and the Jedi reappear in greater numbers.
It is an amazing series, one that will grow on you if you can set aside your own notions of how you want a Skywalker to act. Give Cade some time to grow. 
--Adm. Nick
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"A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker
"I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi
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J_K_DART
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 4:38pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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True; let Cade learn how to live as a Skywalker.
-----signature-----
"Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni."
"I like my pizzas without pepperoni."
"Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 10:28pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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Lord_Riven
There was no relationship. It was rather a ploy on Cade's part to try to look Sithly to Krayt, but even Talon knew he was faking it. So for me it wasn't really a real relationship
I guess I used the wrong words. I should have said the sexual encounter between Cade and Darth Talon caused me to stop reading Legacy. I don't care why Cade did it. The fact that he had sex with a Sith was a real turn-off to me. I wasn't terribly impressed with Cade before, and that was the last straw for me.
Master-Chief-Kenobi
I think Luke would create an IK order that served the emperor & not the force if it meant guarenteeing that the Empire was reformed into a peaceful & benevolant nation and prevented anything like what the moff council did in Invincible.
I don't see Luke willing to do that, Master CK. I think it would go against Luke's fundamental beliefs to have Jedi serve the Emperor and not follow the Force. Having Jedi assigned to keeping an eye on the Moffs is different than having them serve at the whim of the Emperor and doing his bidding, no matter what.
marmkid
i dont know if i could see Luke forming a group of force users that were not jedi
maybe i could see him placing some jedi on semi-permanent duty to guard and council the moffs,
That's more what I had in mind. But the more I think about it, the more I hope Luke has nothing to do with the Imperial Knights, and that they aren't created until very close to the beginning of Legacy.
he seems to be of the mind to let the force choose your paths
keeping some to guard the emperor permanently is a bit restrictive for those particular jedi
Those are good points and helped me reach my conclusion just above.
i wouldnt be surprised to see other jedi who might disagree and think this is a correct path to take but i am not sure about Luke
Maybe Kyp?
i am not completely up to par on all the legacy comics, but what is the actual difference between the jedi and the IK?
Probably Admiral Nick would be better able to tell you that than I would. They both seem to have most of the same Force skills. As far as I understand it, the only difference is that Jedi serve the Force and the IKs serve the Emperor.
AdmiralNick22 , I'll respond to your post tomorrow.
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NewStaryknight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
7/8 11:20pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
7/8 11:21pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
NewStaryknight
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Sorry guys, I know your all tired of me bringing this up and all, but i had to post this before I forget and I just can't keep it to myself.
I just thought of one more good reason why Luke won't and shouldn't go dark. From a story telling stand point it wouldn't work because they just had a whole nine story arc (twelve if you count DNT) dedicated to one of the family going dark and they can't repeat it next series. Some might ask why not the series after the next, but I would say that wouldn't work either because the momentum would be lost. They had to build momentum with Jacen in DNT after all so the fall would be at least a little realistic, but they can't do something like that with Luke because well, they just did it with Jacen.
Again, sorry to touch on this subject again, I just had to speak it. 
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marmkid
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/9 9:32am
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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ChildOfWinds posted:
marmkid
i wouldnt be surprised to see other jedi who might disagree and think this is a correct path to take but i am not sure about Luke
Maybe Kyp?
i can see Kyp maybe thinking in theory it would be good to set up the IK, but i dont see him or any other current jedi actually going against Luke's orders. they all seem to fall in line pretty easily these days with Luke's opinion.
something drastic would have to happen for any of them to go against Luke's wishes, and in that case, it would make Luke look bad for not starting the IK and for another split. I'm hoping that doesnt happen.
now if it was one of the younger jedi, that i could see being possible, maybe having it happen at the end of Luke's career. maybe it would be against his advice, but he wouldnt forbid it completely. Kind of like how yoda didnt think it was a good idea to train Anakin, but didnt overrule the council's decision.
are the IK a good or bad thing? my impression is that they are good. so if they happened to be founded on Luke's watch, it wouldnt be a terrible thing, though i guess its said that they were started when there was a split in the jedi? that wouldnt be good
as long as Luke doesnt look bad, i dont mind them being formed in his lifetime
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colojedi7
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
7/9 12:42pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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As some of you know, I have been going through the LOTF books to examine Luke's characterization in them. I am now up to Sacrifice.
Luke is deeply enbedded in this book since it is about Mara. Mara's character was totally off in this book, but since we are discussing Luke I will not go there. As a side note, the Mando parts were totally boring to me. I read them during my first reading (yes, I read every Star Wars book many times  , but on subsequent readings, I skipped over them.
* It is interesting that our first Luke moment takes place while he is snoring. Some people feel this is a disservice to his character, but I don't. He is human, he snores. So what?
* In a conversation between Kyp and Mara, she says, those in the council who think like Luke does-they don't condone the asassination of Sith. Since when does Luke not condone the destruction of Sith? Except for his father who could be redeemed, it has been his life's work to make sure the Sith do not come back.
* I did not agree with the discussion Luke has about the Empire and Rebellion. Why is Luke feeling apologetic about the necessity of the Rebellion and what they accomplished? This is not Luke speaking, but Karen Traviss. Then Mara rips at Luke for not killing Lumiya when he had the chance. Luke just accepts that Mara is going after Lumiya for him? What? Totally not what Luke would do!
* When Lumiya leaves Ben's boots outside their apartment, Luke rails at himself for believing that Lumiya wanted to shake his hand with no hard feelings. I don't think Luke should be this easy to manipulate. Also Jacen tells Luke he has no idea where Ben is and again Luke is being manipulated. Hated this part.
* Luke introspection scene. I think this scene is believable as Luke. Luke is realizing his role in life is to right wrongs, not be bogged down in management. He forgot who he was, an uncomplicated man, a farmboy. Yes, that is who Luke is and should be.
* On a another side note, Kyp tells the council they sould have taken Jacen to task when he started breaking down doors in GAG, and now appoints himself Chief of State. He is out of control. As mentioned a few days ago, the council talks about checks and balances but has no power or conviction to actually do anything. Luke's council is always debating doing something about Jacen, but they wait until it is too late.
* When Luke goes hunting for Mara (she left him a note saying she went hunting for Lumiya, but really went looking for Jacen) he again is introspective noting that he doesn't want or expect to be loved by everyone, he just wanted to wake up and find his loved ones safe. This is so similar to the reason he left Dagobah after Leia and Han. His life revolves around his family. Maybe he is too attached, but they are his biggest strength also.
* Mara's death- Luke is in his cockpit searching for Mara when he feels her death and his world ended. His grieving with Jaina and Leia, then later alone seemed in character to me.
* When Luke went after Lumiya, "He felt clarity. There were no gray areas about right or wrong. And old voices called to him" I am not sure what these old voices are supposed to represent. Are they Palpatine and Vader goading him to vengence? Ben calling for justice? I would like some other opinions on this.
* Luke in his Stealth feels betrayed by his own gullibility.Lumiya knew he tried to find the good in everyone. Luke then says, "I won't be trying too hard today. In fact not at all". This does not sound like Luke at all.
* When Luke and Lumiya meet for their duel, Luke says to her "you'e mine!". Again not like Luke at all. He says this is about justice-paying the price for Mara's life. "He was flooded with a new confidence that he could take her with just the lightsaber that had always stood between him and darkness". This line seemed like Luke to me.
* The way Luke saved Lumiya from falling only to decapitate her seems open to many interpretations. Luke himself says later it was in revenge. I just don't feel it was totally revenge. Luke is always his own worst critic. I feel his killing of Lumiya was totally justified, but the authors want to somehow taint Luke with the darkside for this death.
* Luke's last moments with Mara's dead body was very touching and in character for him. Interesting that Luke assumes Mara would decide to disappear at her death, but he is glad she didn't. So are we to assume everyone in the order knows how to do this, but only some can achieve it?
* When Luke found out Lumiya did not kill Mara, he went a little crazy here. The author said comething inisde him broke. I feel they have Luke more upset about killing Lumiya than about Mara's actual death. This seems wrong to me. Why would he feel worse about killing Lumiya, a known Sith, than about his wife's murder?
Until next time for Inferno.
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NewStaryknight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
7/9 12:59pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
7/9 1:12pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
NewStaryknight
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^^All the things you just said up there about Luke's characterization in Sacrafice makes the reason why he didn't go after Jacen himself in Invincible almost believeable. He obviously thought he was too close to the darkside when he went after Lumiya and he didn't want to take the chance that he might do it all again. Doing it once is bad enough but its not that big a deal if you don't make a habit of it, but its hard not to start making a habit out of it if you do it more than once. I mean when was the last time we ever heard Luke say things like "Your mine" to a dark sider? When have we ever heard him say he wasn't going to try to find the good in someone?
When I read the parts with Luke in Invincible, the song "Breaking the Habit" from Linkin Park ran through my mind.
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colojedi7
Registered:
Mar '07
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Date Posted:
7/9 1:12pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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You are right, StaryNight. That does make his character more believable in Invincible. And people do go against their own beliefs somethimes. What do you think "hearing the old voices" that Luke mentions is about?
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NewStaryknight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
7/9 1:36pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
7/9 2:07pm (6 edits total)
Edited By:
NewStaryknight
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^^Oh, I betting those voices were probably of Palpatine and Vader badgering him about striking Lumiya down with his anger or something. The sad thing is, he sorta did, it was just justifiable because she was a Sith. But first its Sith and then its just regular stormtroopers and crime bosses, then it will be politicians who don't go by your views and then theives that steal some credits from you and then before you know it your force choking anyone that looks at you funny. Thats why I think Luke made a wise decision in Invincible. He broke the habit before it could begin. Jacen sadly never did.
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J_K_DART
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/9 3:26pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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Interesting reads on Luke in Sacrifice. You're right that in some places he seems to just mouth off on Traviss philosophy; but then, so do all her characters. I actually find that funny; so many grumble at Zahn for doing it, and so many praise Traviss in spite of the fact she's ten times more obvious than Zahn ever was! It's odd; Sacrifice was a mix of in-character and out-, and as you say it sets a pattern that's almost believable for Luke into Invincible.
Stary: I don't believe Luke's going to fall either.
-----signature-----
"Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni."
"I like my pizzas without pepperoni."
"Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/9 5:56pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
7/9 5:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ChildOfWinds
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AdmiralNick22 :
That means that there could be less than 7 IK in 137 ABY.
Thanks for all of the information on the Imperial Knights, Nick!
You also are forgetting that Veed said in #8 that half of the Jedi Order survived.
Yes, I know. Originally, it seemed that only a few Jedi were supposed to have survived, but I think John "heard" the outcry of fans about yet another terrible purge and the total destruction of Luke's life's work and changed his mind. I am grateful for that. However, even with half of the Jedi Order killed off, the Jedi were forced to scatter and go into hiding. They don't have enough Jedi to serve the galaxy as Jedi should. Instead, they will be involved in a long rebuilding process yet again before they can seriously challenge the Sith who seem to greatly outnumber them.
That puts the number of Jedi at around at least 1000 before 130 ABY and the Massacre on Ossus.
I think Luke had about 300 Jedi Knights at the time of LotF, so I would hope that there would be even more than a thousand in 130 ABY.
Luke has appeared more than three times? I guess I missed that in reading through the spoilers. I know there was the one time when Luke appeared and Cade threatened to kill himself unless Luke left. Then there was the time when Cade actually listened to Luke about trying to make amends for getting that Jedi captured by trying to free him. The third time that I know of was when Luke and Kol both showed up and tried to talk sense into Cade, but Cade went back to his deathsticks again. Can you please tell me about the other time or times that Luke appeared? Did he successfully "reach" Cade?
As for the encounter with Darth Talon, it's not that he needs to be "squeaky clean". (And I don't think that there are ANY Skywalkers who are "squeaky clean"!) It's been obvious from the very beginning that Cade is FAR different from Luke. I know he's a "bad boy", an anti-hero. But sex with a SITH????? That was too much! For me, Cade stepped way over the line.
I don't know that Cade will ever develop into a "true Skywalker". Even John has said more than once that Cade is no Luke and never will be. Cade strikes me as being far more like Anakin Skywalker than Luke Skywalker, unfortuately.
The Hidden Temple is full of Jedi trained under the lessons of Luke's New Jedi Order.
That's good news! Does the story ever say how many Jedi are in the Hidden Temple? When I first heard that there was a Hidden temple, I was excited, because I was hoping that Luke's son, Ben would be there. Ben should be alive at this time. It was disappointing to hear about yet another prequel Jedi hidden there instead. And to me, it doesn't make sense that two out of three Jedi on the Council were NOT members of Luke's New Jedi Order or trained by them. Where were those Prequel Jedi when Luke needed help restoring the Order? Why should they take over now when Luke is dead??? I do care; that does bother me.
all this adds up to a Jedi Order that is recovering, not dying.
I guess my problem with this is that the Jedi Order shouldn't need to be recovering yet again. It already went through that during and after Order 66. Luke spent most of his life trying to rebuild the Order to a point where it would be useful to the galaxy. Just when Luke's Jedi Order was beginning to flourish and to have enough Jedi to really serve the people of the galaxy, half of the Order was wiped out. So once again the Jedi Order needs to hide and rebuild instead of doing what a Jedi Order should do. I find that VERY disappointing. So much of Luke's workof a lifetime was destroyed in a day.
Do not avoid or ignore Legacy. It is an amazing series, one that will grow on you if you can set aside your own notions of how you want a Skywalker to act. Give Cade some time to grow.
I gave the series and Cade a chance. I bought and read through Issue 17 even though I never liked the premise; never liked Cade; don't like where the galaxy is in 137 ABY; and always thought the story should have been pushed to 500 years after LotF. I still read the spoilers. If things improve, I can always buy the trade paperbacks in the future, but for now, I'm not interested in reading any more of Legacy.
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