Jedi Council Forums - SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
Nobody145 Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 3/23/08 10:32pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	RK_Striker_JK_5 posted: SuperWatto posted: CoW... Lemme get this straight... You don't enjoy the books since VP. You don't enjoy the prequels. You don't enjoy the clone wars... Which is perfectly alright by me, you're entirely free to think so, but... You must have not been enjoying stuff for ten years now! I guess I'm wondering why you're still hanging on. Not a big fan, either. Although the Legacy stuff's not too bad, from what I've read. I just wish Luke's legacy was a little better. I loved him talkin with Cade, there. Ah, Luke. To me, it was always his story. Not Anakin Whinewalker's. Anakin failed. Luke succeeded. Though actually, its more like Luke helped Anakin to finally fulfill his destiny of bringing balance to the Force... by dropping Palpatine down several dozen stories. But in terms of all six movies, it is kind of more Anakin's story. I prefer to think of it as Luke's story, but he only appeared in three (four, if you count RotS) movies while Anakin was in a major character in all six movies. And on the Zayne=Skywalker ancestor, I wouldn't mind making Zayne more important, especially since in about seven years, most of the KotOR galaxy will revolve around Revan and then the Jedi Exile. Of course, Zayne is already more awesome than either of those two, but making Zayne Luke's ancestor would elevate him a lot. But it would also still fit in with Zayne's underdog status as nobody would have any idea why the name Skywalker is important for four thousand years. And if the Fetts get an ancestor 4,000 years ago, then some other family lines should last at least that long. If they really had to kill Mara, Zahn probably would've given her a better death scene, but its probably better they keep him away from the LotF trainwreck. And during that ridiculous round-robin interviwew at the back of Inferno, I think Denning mentioned that he planted some seeds for LotF during the DNT. I didn't mind the DNT as much as most other people seem too, if only because it had one of the best Luke duels in years. And its kind of funny having Luke nag at Cade again and again. He's like a conscience Cade can only drown out by knocking himself out with deathsticks. Cade finally listens a little, but its still hard to see where Cade will go. Even future summaries are still very vague at the moment (here's praying the next Legacy issue does come out in April). And so far, Luke and a Jedi Master (Saba, during Fury) are still a match for Caedus. Caedus had squads of YVH war droids to slow down Luke's invading party, and Saba was taken out by a grenade explosion. Killing Caedus isn't that incredibly hard, they just need an opportunity. Caedus is usually on the bridge of his personal Star Destroyer, so hard to get to him there, and otherwise, Caedus just keeps escaping, or Luke is still sulking about his vengeance kill of Lumiya. Luke could've shot Caedus down in Fury, but held back because he sensed Allana on board. Then he seems to backslide in Revelation and just scolds Caedus a lot while tearing apart Caedus' starfighter. Why Luke didn't bother to blow up Caedus' starfighter then, I'll never understand. Luke could've just shot Caedus after taking Caedus apart in their duel, but that would be a bit too much for Luke, unfortunately. Its not quite as annoying as Nom Anor or Viqi Shesh constantly escaping during the NJO, but Caedus' constant defeats and escapes are geting up there in terms of annoyance. Oh well, only one more book, unless they decide to have Caedus escape and be a future villain, but considering Caedus killed Mara, I'd hope they wouldn't let him get away. Though the alternatives of either Jaina or Luke killing him aren't exactly appealing either... I'd cheer if he ended up dead, but it would still do a lot of psychological trauma to the rest of his family. -----signature----- Don't mind me, I'm nobody important.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/23/08 10:35pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Charlemagne19 : For me, I simplify it. The Original Trilogy: Luke Skywalker's story The Prequels: Anakin Skywalker's story. Yes, that works for me too. I also consider Luke the most important hero of the saga and Anakin Skywalker/Vader the most important villain of the story. Honestly, I think part of the problem with Luke killing Lumiya is that it's something that absolutely needed to be done. For me, that's not the problem. Yes, Lumiya needed to be killed at this point. Yes, Luke should have been the one to do it. No, Luke shouldn't have killed as a vengeful husband, but as a Jedi Master doing his duty by ridding the galaxy of a dangerous threat. Nobody145 : I wouldn't mind having Zayne related to the Skywalkers, but don't need him to be part of the family tree. Well, with all those years between Zayne and Shmi/Anakin/Luke, there wouldn't be much of a relationship between them, would there? I do like the idea of Zayne being Luke's ancestor. Just as Cade ties the Legacy era to Luke and his family, Zayne would tie the KotoR era to Luke and his family. Sometimes I wish Luke wasn't so set on redeeming almost everybody, but that's part of what makes him so great. I do wish Luke would just get around to killing his nephew. Not exactly a nice thing, but... there has to be a certain point when enough is enough. I like that Luke is the "Great Redeemer". I'd like to see Luke redeem Jacen, but Force strip him. From the Invincible blurb though, I think another character is far more likely to kill, redeem, or strip Jacen of the Force. MasterSkywalker86 : I suppose prison would be a cheap way out, I wouldn't have minded her death if Luke killed her in self defense. That would have been fine for me too, or he could have stripped Lumiya of the Force, as you suggested. the only thing that seem odd was his display of the Force with the Gammeroans guards, which was nothing more than knocking them out. I kinda wish Luke used a different mannerism though... As I said, Luke was new at the Jedi stuff in RotJ! He probably didn't know about any other ways to temporarily incapacitate them. Lord_Riven Why? Even if Anakin is the central figure, who says they can't develop Luke as a different type of hero? Who decrees that each hero has to be the same? Of course two heroes can be developed differently. The point is though that I don't consider Anakin to BE a hero. He was certainly the major villain in the OT, but already in AotC he was killing off women and children in a vengeance killing. That's another reason that I REALLY hated that Luke was written as killing Lumiya for revenge in Sacrifice. Heroes shouldn't stoop to the same level as the heroes. The2ndQuest : Though, one could say he could have made the right choice 23 years earlier and saved a lot of people a lot of suffering. I've liked the notion that Anakin made the wrong choice and failed, but Luke making the right one is what convinced Anakin to redeem his past failure, do the right thing, and "break even" in the grand cosmic karma of things. Nicely and succinctly said! Starwolf76 Luke's regret over his killing Lumiya (who wanted to die anyway) might be addressed in a more proper way in Invincible. So far, all he's said so far is that it made him "weak," without really saying "I shouldn't have done that." While we may not have actually heard Luke say that he shouldn't have killed Lumiya in so many words, I think it's more than implied on p. 37 of Inferno where Luke is thinking to himself: "After the mistake he had made with Lumiya--after his own erroneous vengeance killing of her--he could not bear the thought of making such an error with his own nephew. If there was a way to reach Jacen, he had to try." A couple of pages later, Luke says to Ben, "You don't have to be fourteen to make mistakes. I've been making plenty." I'm pretty sure one of those mistakes he's referring to involves Lumiya's killing. Based on an unofficial brief summary/ad for Invincible I heard, a double team with Luke and Jaina may go on against Jacen. I don't think that's a spoiler, but from the blurb I read, it seemed that Luke is going to put some kind of illusion of his face on Jaina. I don't really see how that would help. In fact, it seems sort of silly. If Luke joined his force powers to Jaina's, as Leia joined hers to his in DE, THAT would make sense. I wouldn't mind that at all.
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 3/24/08 4:00am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	One point about Anakin Skywalker that I'm not sure has been raised here is that, on his own, he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box. Oh he was certainly skilled, but those skills did not extend to people and politics, once he got him on his own Sidious knew he would get him, why else was he so focused on seperating him from Obi-Wan? - which brings us to Luke. I tend to see one point of ROTJ being that a Jedi, even a supremely skilled one, cannot conquer the dark side alone. It took both Luke and Anakin to kill the Emperor. Consequently I can't buy the notion that eps 1-6 should all be perceivied through Anakin, that seems a crude reduction of a series of films that can be interpreted in multiple ways through various characters. I find it strange that there should be an insistence upon a singular interpretation when the material is rich enough to support several. Sure there are notions that can be subjected to a single line: Use of the dark side = wrong, sometimes it may be a lesser or greater wrong depending on the details, but it still isn't advisable. Returning to Luke, it's interesting that the craftier elements of Luke's personality aren't often looked at. Luke is a good deal defter at dealing with politicians than is often shown, BP has a good example of this. Equally the entire operation in DW aimed at securing Omas' as Chief of State would never have worked without the various senators being so corrupt - had they chosen to own up to their actions publicly and still vote for Rodan then that would have been that. As it is, the senators went down the road of looking after number 1 and screwing Rodan, but it was always their choice. What Luke came to understood is the faith in the entire democratic process was on the verge of collapse and with that goes any authority that resides within it. Would Rodan have been so bad? Given his atheistic hostility to the Force, the relationship with the Jedi would have likely and quickly gone bad, which given the Jedi's role in opposing the Vong would have screwed the galaxy. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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patchworkz7 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 3/24/08 7:51am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Reposted from the REV thread at CoW's request: I think Luke's words; "I'd never let you fall", are some of the most loaded in all of SW, and I find it interesting that Karen has said that there are three times she cried upon rereading a scene she had written; the death of Mara (and Ben and Luke's reaction), the death of Lumiya, and the appearence of the Force Ghost of Mara to Ben and Luke. For me, the words that Luke speaks are just loaded with meaning upon meaning, and since Luke is NOT a character who is prone to vengence, and because he has sought out the good in Lumiya for some time, to the point of holding back and letting Mara go after her because Mara and the JC were worried he'd hesitate out of love (an interesting juxtaposition with Jaina's situation I hadn't thought of), and because I think he had loved the person who Lumiya was and wanted very badly to bring her back into the light...well, I think it just shows the humanity of Luke Skywalker, a man with the power of a god, but still a man who loves and is loved, and who is subject to all the fears and anger of any mortal. -----signature----- Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house Now in German and Polish Editions! James A Gilmer
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I-poodoo Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 3/24/08 8:18am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	yowsa! I'm gone for a day and all this sprouts up. Anyway by request I'm reposting this from EUC thread discussion CoW J. Michael Stacinsky also had many happy things happen to his characters after the Dark Times in B5. They were allowed some real victories along the way, even when things seemed darkest too. Del Rey has WAY overdone the "sadism", to the point that the characters who survive aren't likely to ever really recover. I absolutely agree here. This is where DR has really come short. They’ve had an imbalance too much sadism for little benefit. DR’s Sadism should have been used to have the characters gain as much as they lost, to have the characters learn something, to provide a challenge for the characters to overcome. The characters in NJO, DNT, and LOTF have gained little so far and lost a lot. They haven’t learned much and the books that follow they either forget what they learned before or the lesson gets perverted or misunderstood by the next writer. As for overcoming challenges…The only thing DR has had them accomplish is survival…some didn’t even accomplish that. Dart a)Luke's character arc in the OT concluded. The only way to continue to use him as a character really was the approach used by Zahn, to make him 'the first of the new'; and it was an obvious strategy, so much so that both TTT and DE simultaneously came up with the angle. However, launching an existing character on a new arc creates immediate issues. This was complicated by, c.) When DR got the contract, they recognised (rightly, I think) that Luke's two major arcs through Bantam - his singleness and his Jedi Order - were concluded. Instead of crafting a new arc for him, their initial response was to conclude that it was time for Luke to go. Lucas nixed the idea, and DR have been playing 'ooopsie' ever since. Shoehorning Luke into the early NJO led to a poor characterisation that has never been fully recovered from. But the problem is Luke and most of the characters except for the exceptions of Anakin Solo and Jacen Solo don't have a character arc under DR's watch. They've been trying to remake a franchise built around the "Herp's Journey" and transforming it into a more reality based foundation for the GFFA which is just at cross purposes to what SW is. Everyone was convinced that Anakin Solo was going to be the Luke of the NJO. Then DR killed him off and tried to make Jacen the hero, but the problem with that is they didn't really try to treat that with the panache a story founded around "The Hero's Journey" would have done, and having Jacen go bad sabotages the effort they made with his character in the second half of NJO. They're supposed to be plotting ahead between writers and editors, but honestly I can't tell if they are. They just have no direction...they're in the control room frantically running around flipping switches and pushing flashing buttons...I'm starting to seriously wonder if DR even knows what it is trying to do with this SW liscense they have. Nobody Its arguable whether Star Wars is really Anakin's story. The movies are his story, since he shows up in all six of them, and I think Lucas said so too, but its arguable how one can interpret his story. Yes, he falls (though its a somewhat tragic flaw), becomes evil, one of the more iconic fictional evil figures, but in the end, he is redeemed by the love of his son and dies in the light. LR I'd actually respectfully disagree to that one. It is a story of Anakin's internal struggle to be a good being rather than an exterior struggle against the evil Empire. Yes. That is a revision of the focus from the external to the internal but it is still ultimately a story of good vs evil, and good does triumph. It still I believe a story of heroes fighting and ultimately winning over darkness, in the end, Anakin chose his son, chose the light side of the Force over the dark side. 2nd Quest Though, one could say he could have made the right choice 23 years earlier and saved a lot of people a lot of suffering. I've liked the notion that Anakin made the wrong choice and failed, but Luke making the right one is what convinced Anakin to redeem his past failure, do the right thing, and "break even" in the grand cosmic karma of things. I don't feel Anakin is the chosen one at all. All Anakin did was throw Palpatine down the DS's shaft. It was more of the same from him-acting out of aggression-sure to save his son-but still typical Anakin. It was Luke who defeated the Sith when he stopped his fit of rage in that fight with Vader. When he threw his lightsaber to the floor and said: "You've failed your highness. I am a Jedi like my father before me." That was Luke seeing the Power of the DSide, and deciding that power was not really worth it. That's the defeat of the Sith and why Luke is the Chosen one IMO. Charlie Frankly, I think that would have been a much more powerful moment where Luke Skywalker consciously chooses to execute Lumiya depsite their past relationship because she's a threat to the Galactic Peace and will never repent. You could have all manner of interesting insights into Luke. The problem is Traviss didn't treat it with the panache it needed, and she timewarped Anakin Skywalker into Luke's shoes throughout that fight...Luke was a Jedi Grandmaster at the point in the continuity he should've had better control over his emotional state, if she wanted to take the whole Vengeance killing angle. Traviss could've subdue all that enderneath his actions then had him do it at the pivotal moment. That would've been more acceptable. Traviss having him fly off the handle from the get go there and do it so obviously and heavy-handedly kinda insults all the Jedi, because she's saying that not just Anakin any Jedi who gets emotionally distraught becomes like Bruce Banner in rush hour traffic. Despite all the wisdom, calmness, and selflessness they try to uphold according to Traviss they're just rageaholic timebombs waiting to go off. Traviss was the one to say it, and as with alot of the controversial notions she brings up there is an element of truth to that outlook. Her bias against the Jedi is well known, but I just wish she could've handled that scene with alot more tact and subtlety. JB Would Rodan have been so bad? Given his atheistic hostility to the Force, the relationship with the Jedi would have likely and quickly gone bad, which given the Jedi's role in opposing the Vong would have screwed the galaxy. Rodan would've been Karen Traviss' favorite character if he was in LOTF. -----signature----- "It is the actions of a man that defines him not his intentions."-yours truly "Though battles have been lost, the Alliance still lives. We have not surrendered. We do not concede the stars. We will win back our birthright. Freedom." -Jaius Yorub
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/24/08 8:31am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	patchworkz7 Reposted from the REV thread at CoW's request: Thanks, Patch! For me, the words that Luke speaks are just loaded with meaning upon meaning, and since Luke is NOT a character who is prone to vengence,... I think it just shows the humanity of Luke Skywalker, It's true, Luke is NOT prone to vengeance. Yet all of the passages that I quoted for you indicate that he WAS killing for personal reasons. Luke WAS seeking and killing for revenge. I don't really think this showed the "humanity of Luke Skywalker." Luke's brand of "humanity" involves compassion, forgiveness, and redemption. because I think he had loved the person who Lumiya was and wanted very badly to bring her back into the light... I agree that Luke would have liked to have brought Lumiya back to the Light, as he would like to bring EVERYONE back to the Light. However, I'm not one who is convinced that Luke "loved" Lumiya all that much. Did you ever read the Shira Brie issues of Marvel? They never really had all that much of a relationship. Shira's whole purpose in trying to get close to Luke was to kill him or discredit him. Yes, I think Luke was attracted to her and may eventually have grown closer to her, but they really hadn't progressed very far in a "relationship". Right before they got into those TIE fighters for their mission, Shira kissed Luke. He was truly surprised. I took that to mean this was the first time she had ever kissed him. Then, during that mission, the Force told him there was an enemy in the ship he shot down. That ship was Shira's. Over the years, they faced each and fought each other many times. I wouldn't exactly call that much of a love story. So the words Luke spoke actually bothered me. To me, it almost seemed like he was mocking her, like: "I'd never let you fall, but I WILL kill you." And if Luke truly felt badly about killing Lumiya, if it had bothered him, wouldn't he have been sad afterwards? He wasn't. The book says, "Now he could breathe again."
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patchworkz7 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 3/24/08 9:00am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	ChildOfWinds posted: I agree that Luke would have liked to have brought Lumiya back to the Light, as he would like to bring EVERYONE back to the Light. However, I'm not one who is convinced that Luke "loved" Lumiya all that much. Did you ever read the Shira Brie issues of Marvel? They never really had all that much of a relationship. Shira's whole purpose in trying to get close to Luke was to kill him or discredit him. Yes, I think Luke was attracted to her and may eventually have grown closer to her, but they really hadn't progressed very far in a "relationship". Right before they got into those TIE fighters for their mission, Shira kissed Luke. He was truly surprised. I took that to mean this was the first time she had ever kissed him. Then, during that mission, the Force told him there was an enemy in the ship he shot down. That ship was Shira's. Over the years, they faced each and fought each other many times. I wouldn't exactly call that much of a love story. So the words Luke spoke actually bothered me. To me, it almost seemed like he was mocking her, like: "I'd never let you fall, but I WILL kill you." And if Luke truly felt badly about killing Lumiya, if it had bothered him, wouldn't he have been sad afterwards? He wasn't. The book says, "Now he could breathe again." I did read the Shira Brie issues of Marvel (and the later Lumiya ones), and I think Luke was attracted to her, and at that point he was still young and prone to crushes. Men tend to take early crushes rather seriously. Not all men, but Luke is thoughtful, sincere, introspective, and clearly attracted to Shira. Do I think they had a passionate affair? No, but I do think he felt for her, and he also had some guilt for shooting her down, even if she WAS the enemy, because that's who Luke is. As to "Now he can breathe again", he's deathly afraid for Ben. Remember that Luke was ready to charge off because Ben was threatened. Mara calmed him down and smoothed over his fears and he let her go because he thought she could handle Lumiya just fine, not expecting her to run into Jacen. He can breathe because he doesn't think Ben is in danger anymore. Was there an element of vengence involved? Yes, but I think there was also a bit of preemptive protection of Ben since he now believes Lumiya is out to harm him and his family. However, I do think there can be several readings of that scene and dialogue, which is why I say that they're very loaded words. With the fall echoing a "fall to the darkside" as well as a physical fall, the fight itself echoing their first fight as Luke and Lumiya, and the idea that Luke will stetch out a hand to any in need. It's a complex scene with complex emotions, which is why I like it. I do understand why you dislike it, but while I think your points are all very valid, I think they're only part of the reading of that scene. I don't think your reading is wrong, quite the opposite, but for me, there was just more to it than that. -----signature----- Original Fiction & essays "Does God Limp?" in HOUSE UNAUTHORIZED http://www.smartpopbooks.com/allbooks/2007.html#house Now in German and Polish Editions! James A Gilmer
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 3/24/08 9:29am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Lord_Riven posted: AnnLouise posted: If the SW saga becomes Anakin's story, instead of Luke's, there is a major change in the whole outlook of SW. It's not a story of heroes fighting, and ultimately winning, over the darkness; it's a story like Anakin's - a struggle against the darkness that ends in capitulation and failure. I'd actually respectfully disagree to that one. It is a story of Anakin's internal struggle to be a good being rather than an exterior struggle against the evil Empire. Yes. That is a revision of the focus from the external to the internal but it is still ultimately a story of good vs evil, and good does triumph. It still I believe a story of heroes fighting and ultimately winning over darkness, in the end, Anakin chose his son, chose the light side of the Force over the dark side. Anakin in the end doesn't capitulate or fail, at the vital moment he chooses, and makes the right choice. For me it's taking Episode's 1-6 as a whole rather than as two Trilogies. And when you take it as a whole, I think that it is Anakin's story. Yes there is a big 18 year gap between PT and OT but ultimately it is Anakin's struggle against the darkness and his triumph. It's not just Anakin's struggle against darkness. The OT is still a story of an internal battle, just the PT is. They cover both the inner spiritual struggle and an external struggle against evil. The problem with the Clone Wars is that the battle lines are not truly clear. Which, I think, is the an allegory for the confusion in Anakin Skywalker himself. In the OT the battle lines are exceedingly clear. Rebels good, Imperials bad. Which is an allegory for Luke's own inner state where right and wrong are pretty clearly defined for and by him. He doesn't suffer any confusion and the only time he's every really close to giving into his anger is on the DSII. It is via Luke's clarity that Anakin can even come out of the shroud of Darth Vader. Placing the two trilogies together does not make it one story about Anakin Skywalker by any means. Especially when the focus of the story shifts so dramatically away from Anakin/Vader in Episode IV. The OT is clearly Luke's story. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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Ulicus Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 3/24/08 9:36am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family. - Date Edited: 3/24/08 9:38am (1 edits total) Edited By: Ulicus
	Since they're rewriting the Marvel stories anyway, they might as well rejig the story about and make Luke and Shira Brie lovers. (I'd like to see the whole Shira Brie arc redone by Dark Horse, personally) Still, even if they don't do that, I think it's a much better story if both Shira Brie and Luke really did care a great deal for one another, and would have - barring her accident - shaken off the yoke of her Imperial Masters. And, hey, CoW - for all we know, the reason Luke looks so surprised that Shira kissed him is because it's the first time she's done it in public. -----signature----- This is an imaginary story... aren't they all supposed to fit together, though? An animated cartoon about Obi-Wan and Padawan Anakin would have made more sense. Recipient of Golden Ewok™ and Golden EwokTrooper™
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 3/24/08 9:43am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Ulicus posted: Since they're rewriting the Marvel stories anyway, they might as well rejig the story about and make Luke and Shira Brie lovers. (I'd like to see the whole Shira Brie arc redone by Dark Horse, personally) Still, even if they don't do that, I think it's a much better story if both Shira Brie and Luke really did care a great deal for one another, and would have - barring her accident - shaken off the yoke of her Imperial Masters. And, hey, CoW - for all we know, the reason Luke looks so surprised that Shira kissed him is because it's the first time she's done it in public. I'd like to see Shira Brie/Lumiya re-tooled by DH. Maybe not make her and Luke lovers... but I'd love better art. Those issues are tough reads viewed from today's standards. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/24/08 9:44am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	patchworkz7 : I think Luke was attracted to her, and at that point he was still young and prone to crushes. But there's difference between an attraction/crush and real love. If Luke had truly loved her, maybe there would have been an added poignancy to having to kill her, but Shira/Lumiya has really been his enemy for most of his life. While he should regret taking any life, however necessary, I don't really see a special sadness here because this was a "love of Luke's life". She wasn't. She was more of a nemesis. I don't know if Shira herself ever had any real feelings for Luke. I saw it all as an act to get close to Luke to kill or ruin him. Though I do agree that Luke probably felt guilty about shooting her down and causing all of those injuries. As you say, that's who Luke is. But, she was the one who was really at fault. The Force DIDN'T betray Luke, Shira did. She DID mean to harm him. As to "Now he can breathe again", he's deathly afraid for Ben. He can breathe because he doesn't think Ben is in danger anymore. But this wasn't said or even implied in the text, I don't think. The line comes in right after Luke has killed Lumiya. There is no thought of Ben. There is no thought about Luke being sad or sorry for ending Lumiya's life. There's only the idea that "Now he could breathe again". I took that to mean he had satisfied his thirst for vengeance. With the fall echoing a "fall to the darkside" as well as a physical fall, Yes, I saw that in there. I'm sure Luke did wish he could have kept Shira from a fall to the darkside. Unfortunately, she had really already fallen before he even met her. and the idea that Luke will stetch out a hand to any in need. And I DO like the IDEA of Luke stretching out to those in need. Unfortunately, in this case, it was a false offer of help, as right after saving her from a fall to her death (Which I would have liked far better, as it would have been part of a fair fight) with that outstretched hand, he killed her, again, making it VERY personal. I don't like the scene at all, because it reminds me too much of Anakin Skywalker taking revenge after his mother's death by killing Tuskin women and children. Heroes should NOT stoop to the level of the villains, and that's what I see Luke doing here. And after SO many years of being a Jedi knight, this scene truly bothers me. I see it as the worst thing Luke has EVER done in is life. I see this as his worst darkside act.
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 3/24/08 10:40am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Re: Luke and politicians, I think the most interesting commentary on this was in the Corellian trilogy. There, Mon Mothma warns him what's going to happen; sooner or later, he'll inevitably be drawn into a cause of some sort, and he'll have to become active in politics. However, Mothma argues, if Leia has skills she has not chosen to develop that she shares with Luke, then the same is true of Luke; he has political skills that he has not chosen to develop. Again, it's interesting to look at that as yet another subtle attempt to launch Luke into a new character arc, one that hasn't really been dealt with as effectively as it could've been. CoW: Your comments re: Luke's idea of handling the Order differently in HoT actually underscore my point. Zahn's whole purpose in HoT seems to have been to finally 'wrap up' several of the prominent Luke-style character arcs, while at the same time providing a couple of pointers to ones he thought could be developed further. Again, they weren't particularly. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 3/24/08 11:32am Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Child of winds posted: But there's difference between an attraction/crush and real love. If Luke had truly loved her, maybe there would have been an added poignancy to having to kill her, but Shira/Lumiya has really been his enemy for most of his life. While he should regret taking any life, however necessary, I don't really see a special sadness here because this was a "love of Luke's life". She wasn't. She was more of a nemesis. I don't know if Shira herself ever had any real feelings for Luke. I saw it all as an act to get close to Luke to kill or ruin him. Actually, I considered Shira Brie to be genuinely falling for Luke Skywalker. The kiss she gave him was genuine and I believe we were (as the readers) expected to believe that Shira Brie was going to defect and join the Rebellion for real. That's when the horrible transformation to Lumiya occurs and makes it all the more poignant for Luke that HE COULD HAVE redeemed her at one point but that moment passed. As for why I think their relationship should be retconned, it was Lucas who said "A kiss is equivalent to a sex scene." Luke was quite the swashbuckler back in those comics, I point out. But yes, for me, the final scene with Luke Skywalker and Lumiya as written by Traviss incorporates elements of vengeance but his final words underscore that it's not nearly so simplistic as Luke wanting to murder her for killing his wife. It's also twisted with the tragedy that he loves Lumiya as a former friend and intends to kill her for her own good as well.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/24/08 12:40pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family.
	Nobody145 I prefer to think of it as Luke's story, but he only appeared in three (four, if you count RotS) movies while Anakin was in a major character in all six movies. Isn't it rather strange though to have the villain be the major character in the story? That doesn't really sit very well with me. That's why I prefer to think of Luke as the major hero of the saga and Anakin/Vader as the major villain. Like C, I like to think of the PT as Anakin's story and the OT as Luke's story. making Zayne Luke's ancestor would elevate him a lot. And if the Fetts get an ancestor 4,000 years ago, then some other family lines should last at least that long. Hey, I agree! Certainly the most important family in SW should have a known ancestor as long ago as the Fetts do! And its kind of funny having Luke nag at Cade again and again. He's like a conscience Cade can only drown out by knocking himself out with deathsticks. I'd like to see Luke appear more to Cade more often. I'd also like to see him make even more of an impact on Cade. Killing Caedus isn't that incredibly hard, they just need an opportunity. As apparently even a Mandalorian commando knows. I wish Luke wouldn't have blown HIS opportunity in Revelation either. As you said, when it was clear that Caedus didn't want redemption, Luke and the other Jedi just should have blasted his ship when they had the chance. Though the alternatives of either Jaina or Luke killing him aren't exactly appealing either... I'd cheer if he ended up dead, but it would still do a lot of psychological trauma to the rest of his family. That's why I'd like to go with the Force-stripping option. Jedi Ben I tend to see one point of ROTJ being that a Jedi, even a supremely skilled one, cannot conquer the dark side alone. It took both Luke and Anakin to kill the Emperor. It does seem to take teamwork. I'm glad that you agree that the entire saga shouldn't "all be perceived through Anakin". While Luke may not have been in all six movies, his importance in the saga is without question. Without Luke, Anakin would not have been redeemed and Palpatine would not have been defeated. Returning to Luke, it's interesting that the craftier elements of Luke's personality aren't often looked at.Luke is a good deal defter at dealing with politicians than is often shown, BP has a good example of this. What Luke came to understood is the faith in the entire democratic process was on the verge of collapse and with that goes any authority that resides within it. Not only in politics, JB. I think Luke's craftiness and resourcefulness are often forgotten in the EU. Luke was actually quite clever and resourceful in the films. I particularly liked his sort of "Trojan Horse" method of getting his lightsaber into Jabba's palace and his ideas for taking down AT-ATs. I-poodoo But the problem is Luke and most of the characters except for the exceptions of Anakin Solo and Jacen Solo don't have a character arc under DR's watch. They've been trying to remake a franchise built around the "Herp's Journey" and transforming it into a more reality based foundation for the GFFA which is just at cross purposes to what SW is. I certainly agree about the characters, especially Luke. Except for a few things here or there, like the killing of Shimrra and Lomi Plo, Luke hasn't even been given all that much to do. His characterizations are all over the place, and he doesn't seem to grow or develop. Luke seems to keep needing to relearn what he already knew. I feel that Luke has regressed since VotF. The vengeance killing was the worst. I don't feel Anakin is the chosen one at all. It was Luke who defeated the Sith when he stopped his fit of rage in that fight with Vader. When he threw his lightsaber to the floor That was Luke seeing the Power of the DSide, and deciding that power was not really worth it. That's the defeat of the Sith and why Luke is the Chosen one IMO. I like your interpretation! I also agree that Luke was a Jedi GrandMaster when he faced Lumiya and should have had better control over his emotional state. Dawud786 In the OT the battle lines are exceedingly clear. Which is an allegory for Luke's own inner state where right and wrong are pretty clearly defined for and by him. It is via Luke's clarity that Anakin can even come out of the shroud of Darth Vader. Placing the two trilogies together does not make it one story about Anakin Skywalker by any means. Especially when the focus of the story shifts so dramatically away from Anakin/Vader in Episode IV. The OT is clearly Luke's story. I enjoyed your entire post, particularly the above. I definitely agree. More later...
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 3/24/08 12:50pm Subject: RE: SOS Save our Skywalker: Luke, Friends and Family. - Date Edited: 3/24/08 12:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
	Ulicus posted: Since they're rewriting the Marvel stories anyway, they might as well rejig the story about and make Luke and Shira Brie lovers. (I'd like to see the whole Shira Brie arc redone by Dark Horse, personally) I think the Shira Brie arc has some of the best art and storytelling in the whole Marvel run, personally. I've ALWAYS read subtext into the gap between her hauling him into a kiss and "Several Hours Later", or whatever the next caption is: dangerous mission, possibility they might not come back, that sort of thing - Shira says as much. Bear in mind that, at that point, Shira's mission was to shoot down Luke. I doubt that Palpatine or Vader would want to remove the Galaxy's best source of viable Skywalker genetic material without exploiting it. And I think that she did have feelings for him, as well.... Of course, this leads to the question of whether Luke's compassion would extend to having comfort sex with his wing-mate, and generally, into the question of what sort of man the Jedi Master is. I have to admit, I like Luke Skywalker when he's scarred and human, but I think that he can only be a successful protagonist if he retains his sense of goodness and his ability to act like the hero-king he is for the Jedi Order. I'll go so far as to say that DelRey may have ALREADY fatally damaged the character in the canon continuity: they've had him being ineffectual for the length of TWO full story-arcs in NJO and DN3, and while he stood up and took out his lightsaber at the end of both, he's in danger of becoming something of a cliché. In 'Legacy of the Force', we had "Farmboy spurred into action by a major character death in the middle hardcover" as in SbS, followed by "Farmboy reverts to his usual moral hesitancy", and we may get "Farmboy beats the bad guys in the final hardcover", although it will be by Denning, and I've generally liked the way he writes Luke - not least because he depicts him as a great tactical-level starfighter commander, which is what he is and always was. To adapt something that Spock once said to Jim Kirk, "Leading an X-wing squadron is his first, best destiny: anything else is a waste of material". But I digress. 'Legacy of the Force' was the series that could have saved Luke Skywalker, and there were a lot of good "Luke moments", even good "Luke books"; but the couch-topato Luke sitting in the sofa watching TV in Bloodlines killed his momentum in the series, and the paralysed Luke who did nothing for the length of Sacrifice until he lost his temper at the end had no heroism at all; the hesitant, questioning Luke of Fury was probably the reason I didn't enjoy that book more fully - his character scenes were strangely at odds with his action scenes. Though I'll admit that I think his scatalogical discussion with Tenel Ka was the single best Luke scene of the series. The thing is, Luke is in danger of his pattern getting tighter: he sits on his hands and worries, then gets up and attacks the bad guys with all the skill we would expect, and then pulls his punches at the end of the book, because the plot needs the conflict to continue until the end of the nine-book arc. He's starting to look like a moral hypocrite, and an incompetent as well. The question is, what do we do with Luke Skywalker now? Personally, I think Tenel Ka should drag him away to Hapes - or Dathomir - to be Allana's stepfather, and to sire a lot more Skycrawlers. But perhaps the authors should learn from Zahn's experience - the man has written seven Luke-focused novels, after all: firstly, have the action come to him, and secondly, give him lots of individual physical and analytical challenges to get through in the novel. That way, Farmboy is stretched by the story, and getting through the book is an accomplishment in itself, even if the bad guys escape at the end of the book. - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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