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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/16/08 5:19pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 posted: Dawud posted: Logistically speaking, Jacen/Caedus shouldn't pose any real threat to Luke. I can see the whole sentimentality of the familial bond and what not... but Caedus doesn't really have anything that poses much of a challenge to Luke Force wise. And the only power Jacen ever came back with that worried Luke was the flow-walking. Honestly, part of the problem is that Jacen has almost as much training as Luke but no one treats him like he does. Wasn't Jacen pretty lazy in his training except for the last 10 years? -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/16/08 5:33pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Dawud786 posted: Wasn't Jacen pretty lazy in his training except for the last 10 years? Actually, wasn't it pretty clear Jacen lived in the Jedi Academy?
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/16/08 6:51pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 posted: Dawud786 posted: Wasn't Jacen pretty lazy in his training except for the last 10 years? Actually, wasn't it pretty clear Jacen lived in the Jedi Academy? I don't recall him being the most diligent of the Solo kids though. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/16/08 6:55pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/16/08 6:58pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Dawud786 posted: I don't recall him being the most diligent of the Solo kids though. Well, from my memory of the Young Jedi Knight books, Jacen Solo was treated as incredibly enthused about the whole prospect of becoming a Jedi Knight. Admittedly, he was fourteen years old and didn't have the emotional maturity to be one by far but the fact was that he was always enthusiastic about his lessons from "Uncle Luke." No he wasn't Hermione, to compare him to a JK Rowling character, but he wasn't a slacker either. He seems about Harry Potter level for the most part. In other words, actually quite smart even if he's not a genius at Force Use. That's actually pretty close to how Luke himself was portrayed. I mean, whether you're enthusiastic or not, studying day in and day out Mister Miagi style will do the trick. Luke Skywalker was always studying Jedi stuff but also jetting around the universe saving the world too. I'm not saying that Luke isn't better, I am saying though that any Solo child will probably give Luke a run for his money at the age of Thirty years old.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/16/08 7:07pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Dawud786 It amazes me that we're supposed to believe Jacen has all this Force training above and beyond Luke, like we're supposed to forget that most of the Force traditions Jacen visited Luke had already encountered and established contact with decades before... Exactly, Dawud! This is why I feel cheated that we're apparently NOT going to get the spectacular battle in Invincible that we could get if Luke were the one to confront Jacen/Caedus instead of Jaina. As you said, the depths of Luke's Force knowledge should be explored. And if he and Jacen fought, they could use a wide range of Force skills, from Jedi to Fallanassi to Jensaari to Dathomiri and perhaps even more. It could be one AWESOME fight! DarthGeist I do like the NJO Luke though. I really hated the NJO, for many reasons. One of those reasons was that I hated Luke's characterization in that series. Luke suddenly became a passive, inactive, clueless, indecisive idiot in the NJO. Two of the things I hated the most were when Luke sent teenagers on that suicide mission to Myrkr which he and Mara were far better suited for, and when he didn't go to rescue the Jedi children on Yavin IV, instead leaving the job for a 15 year old. But I agree with you that TUF was SO much better! I really enjoyed reading about Luke battling the slayers and defeating Shimrra. I also liked that Luke was able to survive having a thousand coral skippers chasing after him when his ship was damaged, and the rescue of Jacen with two lightsabers was good too. Otherwise, I was very disappointed in the way that Luke was portrayed in the NJO. I think that Luke's characterization in LotF has been very inconsistent, and that he seems to regress after any forward movement that his character makes. It's very frustrating and annoying.
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masterskywalker Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 4/16/08 7:27pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/16/08 7:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: masterskywalker
	"Two of the things I hated the most were when Luke sent teenagers on that suicide mission to Myrkr which he and Mara were far better suited for," So the Solo kids could go fight and likely die at Coruscant instead of Myrkr? That's war, you deploy the resources you have available to the missions they're suited for. Which mission was more important? Defending Coruscant or defeating the Voxyn? Both were high priority targets, but with one you had the fate of trillions, and the other, the fate of a few hundred. It should be blatantly obvious which Jedi should have gone where. Luke was needed for an even bigger mission, that's all there was to it. "and when he didn't go to rescue the Jedi children on Yavin IV, instead leaving the job for a 15 year old." So the Jedi Master has to drop everything and run off every time some Jedi are at risk? It's part of the deal of joining the Jedi, you may be called upon to sacrifice your life at any moment. Luke WAS going to send someone to the Academy, but Anakin couldn't wait and snuck out on his own. That's like blaming Yoda for 'letting' Luke get off of Dagobah and go running around Cloud City looking for his friends. No offense, but these situations weren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. -----signature----- Peace to corrupt, no less than war to waste.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/16/08 7:34pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	masterskywalker posted: So the Solo kids could go fight and likely die at Coruscant instead of Myrkr? That's war, you deploy the resources you have available to the missions they're suited for. Which mission was more important? Defending Coruscant or defeating the Voxyn? Both were high priority targets, but with one you had the fate of trillions, and the other, the fate of a few hundred. It should be blatantly obvious which Jedi should have gone where. Luke was needed for an even bigger mission, that's all there was to it. With all due respect, Coruscant was doomed from the beginning. Jedi are really not going to do all that much in large battles. masterskywalker posted: So the Jedi Master has to drop everything and run off every time some Jedi are at risk? It's part of the deal of joining the Jedi, you may be called upon to sacrifice your life at any moment. Luke WAS going to send someone to the Academy, but Anakin couldn't wait and snuck out on his own. That's like blaming Yoda for 'letting' Luke get off of Dagobah and go running around Cloud City looking for his friends. No offense, but these situations weren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Uhhhh, isn't this what pretty much the entire Jedi Council did to rescue Anakin Skywalker? Honestly, Luke has no responsibility to the venile politicians of Coruscant and it's not like his role as Jedi Grandmaster is one that amounts to all that much when there's only 100 Jedi to coordinate.
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masterskywalker Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 4/16/08 7:57pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/16/08 7:58pm (1 edits total) Edited By: masterskywalker
	"Uhhhh, isn't this what pretty much the entire Jedi Council did to rescue Anakin Skywalker?" Who was the Chosen One. And they were still debating whether or not to nuke the site from orbit when they arrived. "Jedi are really not going to do all that much in large battles." Yeah sure, just like the Battle at the Star Forge and a hundred others where the difference was made by a few Jedi. So by that logic it was totally unneeded for Luke to be at the first Death Star battle? Yoda was leading a 9,000 strong Jedi order and could afford to take off, especially considering Geonosis was a flash point for the beginning of a major war. And you're honestly saying a major Jedi contingent is unimportant for a decisive battle as large as Coruscant was? Luke was needed there to help rally the defenders of the galaxy's capital. Not run after a threat that was only dangerous to Jedi and their immediate force using allies. -----signature----- Peace to corrupt, no less than war to waste.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/16/08 8:03pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	masterskywalker posted: Who was the Chosen One. This is the Jedi Academy. Children should trump the Chosen One. If I were Mace Windu, I'd choose kids over Anakin and Anakin would back me up. masterskywalker posted: And they were still debating whether or not to nuke the site from orbit when they arrived. That wasn't a debate, that was Mace Windu spitting his absolute disgust at the very suggestion by Depa Biblia. masterskywalker posted: Yeah sure, just like the Battle at the Star Forge and a hundred others where the difference was made by a few Jedi. So by that logic it was totally unneeded for Luke to be at the first Death Star battle? Actually, the Battle of Geonosis proves Jedi are pretty much useless in a fight against masses of troopers. Jedi Battle Meditation is something that Luke would have made a MASSIVE difference at if he'd used but Shadow Bombs....not so much. masterskywalker posted: Yoda was leading a 9,000 strong Jedi order and could afford to take off, especially considering Geonosis was a flash point for the beginning of a major war. Yoda should STAY because it's larger and needs coordination. masterskywalker posted: And you're honestly saying a major Jedi contingent is unimportant for a decisive battle as large as Coruscant was? Luke was needed there to help rally the defenders of the galaxy's capital. Not run after a threat that was only dangerous to Jedi and their immediate force using allies. The Battle of Coruscant was a military disaster that shouldn't have even occurred. Frankly, the Jedi should have opted out of it and attacked the Yuuzhan Vong afterwards. Actually, bizarrely, Luke apparently could have ended the war at ANY TIME by killing Shimmra. The Battle was, by itself, meaningless.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/16/08 8:10pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	DurronFan #1. He's definitely been indecisive at times, well several times in fact. But he was originally meant to be killed and DR then didn't know what to do with him, That's not exactly what I'd call a good excuse for writing Luke as indecisive. Yes, they planned to kill Luke originally, but couldn't they have rewritten their story a bit instead of plugging Luke into a role that clearly doesn't suit him? And I still find it kind of hard to believe that Del Rey wouldn't have had a Plan B in place in the event that Lucas wouldn't give his permission to kill off Luke Skywalker. They had to know this was a very real possibility and should have had a role ready for Luke in case Lucas refused. (which he did) #2. Umm...who hasn't? You're just never going to get over that Lumiya killing, are you? The hero should not keep making bad moral choices. Killing Lumiya is one of them, but so was allowing torture and using anger to fuel the Force in DN. #4. I think you just want to see him in more combat. Not necessarily. I just want to see Luke accomplish SOMETHING; do SOMETHING instead of walking around clueless or sitting on the sideline while bad things are happening and doing nothing to stop them. And yes, I'm all for far shorter stories. I'd love to have a lot of single book stories or trilogies at the most. #6. "His Skywalker class power" ??!?!!? Why does this make him immune to the dark side in your eyes? I'm not saying that his "Skywalker class power should make Luke immune to the dark side, but should help him fight off thought manipulations of other Force users. He's not weak-minded. He should be able to withstand and overcome attempts to control or mind-manipulate him. But both Nyax and Lomi Plo were able to trick Luke. ACTUAlLY, the more power a person usually has (whether it be with the Force or other means), the more susceptible he or she is to be corrupted by it. I'm not sure I agree with that. #7. I think Luke should be a fairly good leader. He was a legendary leader of Rogue Squadron, after all. He was a General in the Rebellion too. And Luke seemed to be doing pretty well as the head of the Jedi until Del Rey started to write him. #8. Too human...Not heroic enough? I have a feeling you want Luke to be Superman 80% of the time but unfortunately for you DR wants Luke to be Clark Kent 80% of the time. I'd settle for Luke being Clark Kent 80 percent of the time. Unfortunately, since VP, Luke has been Clark Kent for about 90 percent of the time, Lex Luthor 6 percent of the time, and Superman for 4 percent of the time. #9.I think at the root of this "problem" for you is that you just want to see Luke do something really cool with the Force that would somehow make him the most awesome character possible. That's probably true. And the problem is....? #10. All I can say is...really? Yes. For example, Luke has known since training with Yoda that using anger with the Force is a bad thing. Yet, in DN, Luke is again learning that using anger with the Force is a bad thing. Lord_Riven : Most of them I do agree with. Thanks, LR! You're right that people forget that Luke was the leader of Rogue Squadron and a general. You're right that he should be pretty good at goal setting and achieving and at planning battle strategies. I definitely agree that as the Jedi Grandmaster, Luke should be able to control himself. He should have known that killing for revenge was wrong, and he shouldn't have done it. Yes, I can agree that there has been a lack of creative ways of using the Force and other skills that Luke has picked up by being an X-wing pilot, a Jedi, and a General. J_K_DART : Yes, I do see Luke as a hero in the more traditional sense. And I think that there's a difference between acknowledging Luke's humanity and being hit over the head with it to the point of Luke being portrayed as having more negatives than positives in his character. but in-universe it illustrates my point and also shows Luke's wonderful character in letting Ben teach him a trick he already knew. I really like that idea, Dart. But didn't Luke already use the skill in Inferno? That means that if Ben taught Luke the trick, he taught him between Sacrifice and Inferno. That would be great if Luke used the Force to put the illusion of his face on Jaina, but then actually DID approach Jacen/Caedus without Jacen realizing it. I do very much want to see Luke face and defeat Jacen in Invincible. I know the likelihood that this will happen is extremely small, but I still hope it does. Charlemagne19 : Luke Skywalker was never a moral paragon Sorry, C, but I disagree. I do think that Luke is supposed to be a hero with a strong moral compass. Perfect? No. But a very good and morally upstanding man who usually makes the correct moral decisions.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/16/08 8:15pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/16/08 8:23pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Child of Winds posted: Sorry, C, but I disagree. I do think that Luke is supposed to be a hero with a strong moral compass. Perfect? No. But a very good and morally upstanding man who usually makes the correct moral decisions. Yep. And I believe that moral paragons are usually disingenous to present to children. hey make people think that impossible ideals are to be lived up to and destroy genuine real role models who have decent but flawed personalities like Luke. It's why I like the Silver Age Superman and not the Messianistic one. Luke is a hero, not a cardboard cut out. I think your definition of paragon differs strongly from mine. For me, I prefer a Luke who acts on his moral compass because he's a man tempted by rage and the easy path like a normal human being. A person who behaves in a moral manner because he's kind and compassionate while a believer in a strong sense of justice. If you don't make a character work for that and don't give him nuance than any moral lessons derived from it are really worthless because that's not how real people work. Edit: For me, I think Star Wars represents one of the last reserves of what I consider to be "Heroes without Guilt." A lot of action movies present Action Heroes who are fairly brainless embodiments of slaughtering people for simply how it looks on screen. Likewise, plenty of other established stories try and make heroes forced to be Anti-Heroes or morally angst over it because they've become ashamed of being good. The ugliness of Luke Skywalker's talk with Ben about fighting the Empire is that it attempts to make Luke Skywalker feel GUILTY about saving the galaxy from the Empire. Yes, a million people died on the Death Star and its not something Luke Skywalker should be bragging in a bar about. However, I don't think he should feel guilty about it either. Because Luke Skywalker has a body count probably in 7 figures rather than just six at this point. He kills, kills, and kills a lot because its war and he's fighting for the future of the people of the universe.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/16/08 8:36pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	masterskywalker : Which mission was more important? Defending Coruscant or defeating the Voxyn? A few Jedi weren't really capable of defending Coruscant in the first place. And I think if Luke and Mara would have gone instead of the Jedi children, they could have been in and out quickly and could have accomplished BOTH missions. Luke and Mara knew Myrkr well; they could have used the Falanassi trick to cloak themselves; they could have killed the voxyn queen and been out in enough time to help at Coruscant too. The Jedi Children are the Jedi Master's responsibility. As leader of the Order, it was Luke's duty to protect the youngsters. Most of those children were probably too young to have even made the decision for themselves to be Jedi, so saying that being willing to sacrifice your life is part of the deal to join the Jedi doesn't really work for them, I don't think. MasterSkywalker86 : 1. Too indecisive, dithering Yes, this has been plaguing Luke since the beginning of the NJO, with Luke constantly questioning himself. 2. Makes too many morally questionable and/or dark decisions this idea reared it's ugly head in DN and Sacrifice...Luke is NOT a anti-hero. Exactly, and I don't like having him portrayed as one. 3. Few or no ideas about how to solve a given problem. Luke used to be resourceful. You're right. Zahn does this very well. He writes Luke as talented, smart, and resourceful even without the Force. 4. Too inactive, sits on the sidelines, in the background too much Yes, Del Rey seemed to figure out that inactive Luke was a terrible mistake by the time of The Unifying Force. Unfortunately, they seemed to forget again in the DNT and in LotF. 5. Too incompetent; portrayed as being unsuccessful at achieving his goals, at least until the end of the series. agreed. the Tempest duel could have been managed better. A lot more than just the Tempest duel could have been managed better! 6. Too weak; easily influenced by darksiders like Lumiya and Lomi Plo. Beaten too frequently for his Skywalker class power that's one of the faults I had with DN. LotF has the same faults. 7. Written as a poor leader of the Jedi; a poor role model this is the guy who lead the famous Rogue Squadron and form the Jedi Order....what happen to that ? I don't know, MS. That's what I want to find out too. 8. Too flawed; too human; not portrayed as heroic enough now I would love to see this more balanced, I don't want him to be perfect but I don't want him to be too flawed either. That's what I want to see too: balance. 9. Doesn't use the Force enough Agreed, where in the Legacy of the Force have we witness the Force ? Well, when Luke and the Jedi created the Force illusions in Revelation. The question is though, what did they accomplish? Nothing. .. that a classic heroic character isn't as cool to younger readers. what do you do ? you kill him or turn him into a villian and bring out a fresher younger kid to take your place.....that's just lame. It certainly isn't what I wanted to see! You're right: "We don't see that much creative magic with the character" that we saw in the older novels.
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masterskywalker Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 4/16/08 9:04pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/16/08 9:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: masterskywalker
	"The Battle of Coruscant was a military disaster that shouldn't have even occurred. Frankly, the Jedi should have opted out of it and attacked the Yuuzhan Vong afterwards." Which makes zero sense from a Jedi's view. 'Oh, Y HELLO THAR galactic captial! I know we defended you n' stuff for the past four thousand years or so, but we're sorting of smarting from how you've treated us, so we're going to abandon you and beat the bad guys later, k thnx by.' Luke refusing to defend the galactic capital was an impossibility. Imagine the image that would send to the galaxy! "Hero Luke Skywalker turns coward and runs! Allows barbaric aliens to rape and pillage most important planet in galaxy!" Yeah, that's going to do great for Jedi publicity. Jedi are sworn to defend life, and the needs of the many called the Jedi to put their best to defend Coruscant. Whether they succeeded or not! How would you feel if as an New Republic soldier you were told Luke Skywalker was going to be there. It'd be a huge psychological boost and it WAS. I think you're really downplaying how important this battle was Charles. The important thing is that they TRIED! Debacle or not! NOT trying would be a total betrayal of the Jedi belief that they are DEFENDERS OF LIFE. How could they possibly abandon the defense of the most populated planet in the galaxy? In case you forgot, every minute the Jedi held off the attackers, it meant that thousands of people escaped brutal, tortuous deaths to the most savage enemy in the galaxy. Saying, 'they didn't make much difference' is totally untrue if in the 15 extra minutes they bought the defenders a few hundred thousand more civilians escaped. You can't REALLY be serious that Luke Skywalker was better off running to defeat a few stim'd up Jedi hunting beasts than be a rallying symbol at the defense of the galaxy's capital which was not about to be conquered, but rather obliterated and raped so badly that it became unrecognizable... are you? -----signature----- Peace to corrupt, no less than war to waste.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/16/08 9:27pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	You can't REALLY be serious that Luke Skywalker was better off running to defeat a few stim'd up Jedi hunting beasts than be a rallying symbol at the defense of the galaxy's capital which was not about to be conquered, but rather obliterated and raped so badly that it became unrecognizable... are you? I think that Luke could have destroyed the whole place and reached Coruscant before it was done without bothering with the stealth mission and using the Falcon Hyperdrive.
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DarthGeist Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 4/16/08 9:44pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	You guys have to remember also, Anakin Solo wasn't your average 15 year old kid. And neither were his brother and sister. Personally I never would have let them do the stuff they did but they weren't just Jedi, they're pretty much recognized as the A-Team of the Order. Honestly, I think Luke had a huge grasp on the situation in NJO ... except for the politcs. But that seemed natural because Luke isn't really a politician. -----signature----- "Women are like wookies: Let the wookie win." - My personal philosphy on conflict resolution in relationships "Not a good idea to tell a woman she's like a wookie. Doesn't translate" - My personal philosphy on avoiding relationship conflicts
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