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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 4/18/08 3:00pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	DarthGeist posted: But on all this talk about the Invinceable blurb: I would actually prefer it if he stayed out of the finale. It's almost like the Shimmra fight in NJO. Luke took care of Lumiya, and now it falls on Jainia to take out her brother. Incidentally, that worked very well. The torch was passed by necessity in TUF, but it's less apparent in Invincible. Luke should be injured fighting Caedus, or taking out the Anakin Solo on his own. Then I'd be more happy about Jaina going after Caedus, myself. Luke's been after him for the entire post-Caedus spell, starting with the angry strike at Kashyyyk, a fighter battle in Fury, and then him finally calmed and balanced enough to deal with him by Centerpoint. With that in mind, he moves to attempting a reprogramming in Revelation. He's at least functional. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up! Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Lord_Riven Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 4/18/08 5:36pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Has anyone considered that Luke might have learned all the necessary things about how to be a General off screen? I hope Stover does show us a Luke that isn't just 100% Jedi, he's got other facets and training to help make him more effective as a leader and as a person. -----signature----- Legacy AU fic: Family Ties. Follow the link in the next line. http://www.fanfiction.net/~darthriven Casiah - Cade Skywalker x Marasiah Fel 'shipper (#1) Canderous >>> Boba Fett
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 4/18/08 5:57pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	That's my view too, Lord_Riven! -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/18/08 10:13pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/18/08 10:16pm (2 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Sinrebirth : I can't say I'd be very happy about Luke being injured facing Caedus. I don't want Caedus to ever defeat Luke. However, I do wish we'd get a better explanation for why Jaina confronts her brother instead of Luke's worry that he might go dark. I'm really tired of having the dark side brought up with Luke all the time. It seems to make Luke very weak that he still can't control his emotions even after 40 years as a Jedi. I'm really not happy about this at all. Luke's been after him for the entire post-Caedus spell, starting with the angry strike at Kashyyyk, a fighter battle in Fury, and then him finally calmed and balanced enough to deal with him by Centerpoint. With that in mind, he moves to attempting a reprogramming in Revelation. I agree that Luke seemed to be functional there. And Luke seemed sad, but calm and accepting after hearing the confirmation that Jacen had killed Mara. I would think that Luke would now be at the stable point where he could face Jacen as both Uncle and Jedi Grandmaster, going with the hope of bringing back a lost sheep of the family and of the Jedi, but prepared to do his duty and take out a menace to the galaxy if necessary. DeJade_Vu is Luke's character being as bipolar-ish as usual? I think AnnLouise covered this pretty well when she said: " Actually, he's acting more in the Clinically Depressed with Mistaken Vengence Killing mode, alternating with Plot-Driven Catatonic State." As someone on this thread said, Luke has been doing SOME "stuff", but it hasn't really amounted to anything. He hasn't really accomplished any of his goals or been successful at anything except killing Lumiya for revenge, and that's something he SHOULDN'T have done. I still think Luke has been on the sidelines too much, grieving over Mara, beating himself up for killing Lumiya, and in such a state of depression that Ben was worried that his father was considering suicide. DurronFan Yes, now that you mention it, I do remember our debate about what consitutes a fall to the dark side, and that we had different interpretations of what it involves. Since, as you said, the three events that you mentioned are debatable, I guess we'll just agree to disagree about that. It's just that if his so-called learning and experience was acquired at the cost of lives he was responsible for, then I'd a little disgusted. I wouldn't think that Rogue Squadron would have become such a celebrated, famous, respected, and exemplary fighting unit if lots of lives were lost. Quite frankly, COW, I don't think I'm the one here who needs to be reminded of this. LOL! Well, it seemed that you were trying to put real-life limits on a fictional character, so I thought I'd remind you that Luke ISN'T real. And I agree with your statement that Star Wars is more about entertainment than realism, which is why I don't think it's too far-fetched for me to want Luke to be portrayed as a "superhero" for at least 50 percent of the time, or for me to want him to be shown as having a strong moral compass and making correct moral choices. All human beings are capable of great heroism so in that sense Luke with his great compassion and courage (being strong with the Force helps too) always has that potential of being that great superhero you dream about. It's just that for me, him being an interesting human being takes precedence over that. Unfortunately, I don't feel that Luke HAS been written as an interesting human being. I don't like that he keeps being portrayed as indecisive and/or flip-flopping on everything. I don't like that Luke is so ineffective so often. He successfully accomplishes almost nothing. I don't find that kind of portrayal interesting at all. On the other hand, I do think that an heroic character who is compassionate and courageous and has an arsenal of Force powers to boot, CAN be very interesting and compelling. As I said, I think the dichotomy of the Jedi Master and the Farmboy is very interesting when handled well. My point was that Luke, in spite of mastering the Force in so many ways by the NJO, still had many gaps that he couldn't understand since he had to learn most of the stuff himself. So when a old Jedi Master of the extinct Old Republic comes along and shares a few ideas about the Force, of course the guy is gonna listen, But Vergere isn't the first or only Old Republic Jedi that Luke has met. Besides Obi-wan and Yoday, Luke knew Ikrit for quite a while too. And wasn't Brand an Old Republic Jedi? Luke also has had years to study all of those Chu'unthor tapes and a holocron too, so it wasn't as though this "witch bird" was Luke's one and only shot at learning Old Republic knowledge and skills. AND, if I remember correctly, wasn't Vergere only a newly minted knight herself when she went off with the Yuuzhan Vong? The fact that she tortured Jacen should have been a huge clue for Luke that Vergere was NOT to be trusted!
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DarthGeist Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 4/18/08 10:24pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I only have a moment to post but I just wanted to get this out there: a possible explanation for Luke being portrayed as a flip-flopper/two steps forward two steps back/indecisive/enter descriptive terminology here. What is Luke going to become? An active leader? A front line leader? An administrator? Perhaps the reason Luke is the way he is currently is because, as Grand Master and a jack-of-all trades, there is so many aspects of Luke that the authors can't grasp in which way he is to be shaped...which is alarming in and of itself. But anyways, It's just a thought and I haven't had time to think it through yet ... it's half past midnight where I'm at and I'm about to bottom out so forgive my inchorency (hey! made up a word!). If I'm not back tomorrow, I'll see everyone on Monday. Adios! -----signature----- "Women are like wookies: Let the wookie win." - My personal philosphy on conflict resolution in relationships "Not a good idea to tell a woman she's like a wookie. Doesn't translate" - My personal philosphy on avoiding relationship conflicts
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/18/08 10:42pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 I'm confused, how is Luke as a General in any way immoral? He's already served two and half years with the Rebellion by the Battle of Endor with distinction above and beyond the Call of Duty that any human being could possibly have served. And, as you said, Shadows of Mindor takes place five years after Luke started serving the Rebel Alliance. Great list of reasons for why it's not illogical for Luke to have been awarded the rank of General. You've convinced me! I agree with all ten of your points. I think Dart made some good points as well. I especially liked his remarks about Luke Skywalker being a symbol of the Rebellion and a symbol of the Jedi. As he said, "Bearing a lightsaber, the mark of the ancient heritage of the Republic, and the destroyer of the Death Star, the Rebellion could use that symbol powerfully." Making Luke a General would make the symbol more prominent. Plus, Luke created Rogue Squadron, which became a legend as well. So Luke was pretty "high profile". He was also well-trusted by the Alliance by this time. Making Luke a General DOES make sense. As others have said, Luke was probably a good morale booster for his troops. But yes, we'll have to see what happens in Shadows of Mindor to find out for sure. From what little I know of the battle, I believe it was quite a brutal fight.
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DurronFan Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 4/18/08 10:49pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	" In Rogue Squadron, yes, it's important but mostly it's the fact that people look to him as a natural leader. Wedge Antilles and the other Rogue Squadron members automatically deferred to Luke after the Death Star despite their greater experience and that made him natural to lead it." I'm not disagreeing with any of this but to say that nobody could stand higher thank Luke in rank/hierarchy without making a fool of themselves was giving way too much credit to Luke's leadership abilities and not giving enough to a guy like Rieekan or Ackbar. "Naval Academy training provides you with a lot of the discipline and understanding of the system that allows you to function in a unit." It that's all it did then it would be no different from any standard military training that would only make you a private. Any officer school, including naval academy, trains you on how to be an officer and that means the ability, at the very least, to lead a platoon. So all things considered, Han's education made him more prepared to lead a contingent of people than Luke. Still having said that, Han wasn't trained to lead a whole ship so he must have learned that himself over the years. "However, the majority of what Han Solo learned in the Imperial Academy during his years there is not going to be "How to run an Imperial Naval Battleship" (which wouldn't help that he was a General in the Army either" Most certainly not, but he received helluva lot more knowledge there than what Luke knew before joining the Rebellion. "2. Rank, Rules, Regulations." You're talking about one of the most standard things that are ever taught, even the lowliest private is expected to know this. " Discipline (words cannot describe how this is the major thing you're expected to learn)." BELIEVE ME I KNOW. I have a year of my life to back it up. But again, this just standard stuff that not just officers are expected to know, but also petty officers and everybody below them. Including privates "Imperial history." Basic military history of your your affiliation is taught anywhere. Look, you've just mentioned mundane examples of what Han would have learned, he was trained as an officer for crying out loud which is a whole class above those things. Believe me when I say that the most important thing that they teach in Officer school is how to lead, how to be responsible for the lives of your subordinates. That really is the whole freakin' point of it. There's a heavy dose of theory taught to make you as good an officer as possible, theory that actually makes a huge difference. "If the Rebellion had its own Annapolis, Luke probably never had time to attend it since he was too busy rescuing Jan Dodonna from the fleet of Darth Vader days later." I already conceded this point. "Really, the question isn't whether Luke going to the Academy would qualify him as an officer but whether 5 years of constant small combat experience mixed with the occasional Mid-Level Command (Squadron level and the Truce at Bakura) warrants him being made a General." I'm sure the experience he gathered warranted him to becoming at least a Colonel by Rebellion standards but my real itch here is that he gained this 5 years of experience without any prior training to lead. That he learned at the expense of whoever died under him. Whereas if he had the training of how to lead before taking the responsibility, I'm 100% sure less lives would have been lost. I just hope that the first mission after yavin, they didn't make him responsible for a squadron right away. "Of course, his status as a Jedi Knight may have also done this as people automatically assume Jedi are Generals." Granted this is true. "Your point has some serious validity I confess, I don't think Luke would have been a General in any world where basically superheroes aren't expected to have special privileges." Like I said before, I'm not going to expect everything in SW to be absolutely realistic, it's science fiction for crying out loud. Actually when one thinks about it, ranks are handed not based on a specific degee of training, experience or accomplishment. They're handed out based on who's most proficient in these areas at hand and the next rank to the one after that, basically you work with what you have and the Rebellion didn't have that much after all. -----signature----- Luke Skywalker: I'm not afraid! Yoda: Good... You will be. You will be.
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/19/08 6:49am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/19/08 6:51am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	ChildOfWinds posted: But Vergere isn't the first or only Old Republic Jedi that Luke has met. Besides Obi-wan and Yoday, Luke knew Ikrit for quite a while too. And wasn't Brand an Old Republic Jedi? Yes. And there were Vima-da-Boda, Aqinos and the Iron Knights; then there are those that were more or less half-trained by surviving OJO Jedi and could have been in possession of knowledge that Luke hadn't got, like Kam Solusar or that Katarn fellow. Also, there are some Jedi - mostly Padawans etc - who survived until the movie era, with unknown fates, who Luke might have met. Also, Luke's NJO have found several holocrons, lastly the Great Holocron of the OJO itself, apparently just before LotF according to Jedi vs Sith. And Vergere was a Knight, not a Master. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/19/08 8:46am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Lord_Riven posted: Has anyone considered that Luke might have learned all the necessary things about how to be a General off screen? I hope Stover does show us a Luke that isn't just 100% Jedi, he's got other facets and training to help make him more effective as a leader and as a person. Stover's going to be giving us a Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and Rebel fighter ace/general in transition from his role as fighter ace and general to full time Jedi Knight on his way to Mastery. We have to remember that Mindor is where Luke has the spiritual crisis that makes him question the appropriateness of a Jedi leading troops into battle and causing massive amounts of death and destruction for both sides of the conflict. It also spurs him to really get into seeking out Jedi artifacts and researching his Jedi legacy that ultimately leads him to take on the responsibility of instructing his sister in the ways of the Force, her children and starting his Jedi Praxeum. I don't think he'll be indecisive, but his inner turmoil over what he's doing SHOULD hopefully make his hesitance to sent his Jedi into battle to kill and die during the NJO make some kind of sense. Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor isn't just an untold Luke Skywalker story... it's a major retcon to explain some of Luke's more recent tendancies. Being as Matt Stover is doing it... it's going to make it believable for once. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 4/19/08 9:58am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	There is another element to Luke's caution with the Jedi: Namely, what chance to 100 Jedi have against millions of Vong? What's the point of sending them forward into a giant meatgrinder in "a display of futile heroics"? I'm not sure it ever received that much attention in NJO, but the Jedi were going to have to be selective about where and when they acted despite wishing to save everyone. -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 4/19/08 11:41am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I wonder what ever happened to the Iron Knights?
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/19/08 11:46am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/19/08 11:47am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rouge77
	NewStaryknight posted: I wonder what ever happened to the Iron Knights? Few of them fell to the Dark Side during the YV war and died fighting the YV, the rest should still be around. It would be nice to see even a glimpse of them in a novel, as they are a direct link between Luke and Mace Windu, on whose side they fought in the Arkanian civil war. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/19/08 12:49pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Jedi Ben posted: There is another element to Luke's caution with the Jedi: Namely, what chance to 100 Jedi have against millions of Vong? What's the point of sending them forward into a giant meatgrinder in "a display of futile heroics"? I'm not sure it ever received that much attention in NJO, but the Jedi were going to have to be selective about where and when they acted despite wishing to save everyone. QFT. To be certain, running off half-cocked like Kyp did wouldn't have been good if sanctioned by Luke. I think it is a realistic concern to be wary of sending his few Jedi Knights off to fight on the frontlines in such a heated situation. I'm actually shocked that Kyp didn't cross over into the dark side again... -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 4/19/08 12:54pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/19/08 1:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: NewStaryknight
	On that note, does anybody think Luke could fall to the dark side again. Because thats the only way I see this story ending on really tragic note. Its also the only way I see Denning killing off the Solo's or Ben or Jaina.
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DurronFan Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 4/19/08 2:16pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	COW "I wouldn't think that Rogue Squadron would have become such a celebrated, famous, respected, and exemplary fighting unit if lots of lives were lost." Well like I said I'm not exactly familiar with Rogue Squadron's history, especially of the time when Luke was there. I do remember having a PC game called Rogue Squadron in which you flew as Luke Skywalker, and not surprisingly evry mission became a great story of success...so long as you didn't die But there are few PC games that I consider worthy canon and this isn't exactly one of them. "And I agree with your statement that Star Wars is more about entertainment than realism, which is why I don't think it's too far-fetched for me to want Luke to be portrayed as a "superhero" for at least 50 percent of the time, or for me to want him to be shown as having a strong moral compass and making correct moral choices." I suppose I can't really disagree with that. But likewise it shouldn't be be far-fetched for me to want him to be a character of more intrigue than heroism. "Unfortunately, I don't feel that Luke HAS been written as an interesting human being. I don't like that he keeps being portrayed as indecisive and/or flip-flopping on everything. I don't like that Luke is so ineffective so often. He successfully accomplishes almost nothing. I don't find that kind of portrayal interesting at all. On the other hand, I do think that an heroic character who is compassionate and courageous and has an arsenal of Force powers to boot, CAN be very interesting and compelling. As I said, I think the dichotomy of the Jedi Master and the Farmboy is very interesting when handled well." He struggles with decisions and that constitutes him as not interesting at all? See I don't really think you're concerned with whether or not he's an "interesting" character. It's a character's flaws that make him/her interesting usually. That's not to say that the more flawed the more interesting, of course not. I guess what I'm saying is that Luke's indecisiveness, while stalling and annoying at times I gladly admit, does not necessarily make him uninteresting. "But Vergere isn't the first or only Old Republic Jedi that Luke has met. Besides Obi-wan and Yoday, Luke knew Ikrit for quite a while too. And wasn't Brand an Old Republic Jedi? Luke also has had years to study all of those Chu'unthor tapes and a holocron too, so it wasn't as though this "witch bird" was Luke's one and only shot at learning Old Republic knowledge and skills." True enough. I just thought that with an anomoly like the Vong, he wanted a second opinion. "AND, if I remember correctly, wasn't Vergere only a newly minted knight herself when she went off with the Yuuzhan Vong?" Well this is true, her official status was that of a Knight. Yet her knowledge of the Force, despite her twisted views on morality and life, was more than that of the average Knight in Luke's Order. "The fact that she tortured Jacen should have been a huge clue for Luke that Vergere was NOT to be trusted!" Well he didn't....until she sacrificed herself to save Jacen which was probably quite the clever ploy to get Luke take her more seriously. NewStaryKnight "On that note, does anybody think Luke could fall to the dark side again. Because thats the only way I see this story ending on really tragic note. Its also the only way I see Denning killing off the Solo's or Ben or Jaina." Well whether he did or did not before, I don't think so. Not unless Ben gets killed but I find that highly unlikely, nearing impossible. Especially with Jaina taking the big fight with Jacen. -----signature----- Luke Skywalker: I'm not afraid! Yoda: Good... You will be. You will be.
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