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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 4/22/08 4:35pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/22/08 4:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: J_K_DART
	I think one of the things, as I've said, that Denning has right is this; a Force-opponent with 'new tricks' against Luke has one chance, just one, to hit him hard. Windu would have that one chance. Should he fail to finish Luke off with it, then he'd be pounded. Luke at the top of his game is a Jedi Grand Master. Just as I don't see anything to convince me that Mace was of Yoda levels (to use crude 'power level' analogies), I don't see anything to convince me that Mace was of Luke levels. You raise an interesting question, Charles: What is the core of Luke's character? You seem to put 'adventure'; I put 'redemption' standing side-by-side with it, hence my dissatisfaction with some of the current run. Incidentally, a question for everyone; what's Luke's 'Shatterpoint'? -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/22/08 4:44pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/22/08 4:45pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Arawn_Fenn
	Ben turning Sith. -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/22/08 4:46pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	It seems to be Family. Luke goes berserk because of Leia. He also kills Lumiya because of Mara. Also, he goes almost as nuts with Ben and lets Jacen get away. Rationally, had Luke been thinking straight, I think Luke would have finished Caedus then smacked Ben upside the head had not Ben given his Dark Side speech during Inferno.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 4/22/08 4:49pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Luke's attachments are a potential weakness... the OJO wasn't completely wrong about attachment... -----signature----- "You're both from strange little backwater planets. You both have odd powers. You're male and she's female. What more do you need? Believe me, buddy, if I were you, I'd go right up there and ask her if she wants to ride on my rancor." - Han Solo
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/22/08 4:52pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Arawn_Fenn posted: Luke's attachments are a potential weakness... the OJO wasn't completely wrong about attachment... Bruce Lee "Every strength can be a weakness and every weakness can be a strength."
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/22/08 5:18pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I guess my major concern with redemption and Luke is that I absolutely believe they've ruined the idea of redemption in the Expanded Universe. Kyp Durron's original destruction of Carida isn't a war crime. It's a planet entirely inhabited by soldiers. Now it's been retconned into galactic genocide. Out of respect to KJA, I personally reject this interpretation but it seems like Luke Skywalker is protecting his students from the consequences of their actions. Luke Skywalker would absolutely try to redeem Jacen Solo in my opinion. But I also think that he would then place Jacen behind bars because that's what a responsible and redeemed Jacen would allow himself to be. He would spend the rest of his natural life imprisoned for the depths of his atrocities or allow himself to be executed. However, if Luke redeemed Jacen, it's like Del Ray would expect Luke to somehow get Jacen off scott free.
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/22/08 7:09pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 posted: I guess my major concern with redemption and Luke is that I absolutely believe they've ruined the idea of redemption in the Expanded Universe. Kyp Durron's original destruction of Carida isn't a war crime. It's a planet entirely inhabited by soldiers. Now it's been retconned into galactic genocide. Out of respect to KJA, I personally reject this interpretation but it seems like Luke Skywalker is protecting his students from the consequences of their actions. Luke Skywalker would absolutely try to redeem Jacen Solo in my opinion. But I also think that he would then place Jacen behind bars because that's what a responsible and redeemed Jacen would allow himself to be. He would spend the rest of his natural life imprisoned for the depths of his atrocities or allow himself to be executed. However, if Luke redeemed Jacen, it's like Del Ray would expect Luke to somehow get Jacen off scott free. Good point. I can't even think of anything that Kyp did with the Sun Crusher but supernova Carida... which was an aggressor world loyal to the Empire whose planetary chief of state/general of the Academy had poisoned the Chief of State of the New Republic AND sent his shiny new spider walkers to kidnap a New Republic senator's child who also happened to be the nephew of the only Jedi Master currently active in the New Republic. The only other thing Kyp used that superweapon on was the Cauldron Nebula... and that was to get Daala's fleet, and she was actively engaged in aggressive actions against the New Republic. Specifically, civilian refugees that had just been relocated to Dantooine and other such targets. The problem wasn't in what Kyp did, but what he could have done had he not been pulled from the dark side's abyss. Luke redeemed Kyp before he could commit real atrocities against people's who were not legitimate military targets. Kyp's gotten a bad rap under Del Rey. I guess it served some narrative purpose, and it had been so long since I read JAT that I'd sorta forgotten it didn't go down how the NJO made it seem. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/22/08 7:24pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Crossposting: ChildOfWinds posted: [i]And eventually Luke has to step down.[i] Why, R77? Yoda didn't. It's either that Luke stays as a Grand Master until his death or that he retires at some point; so far LotF seems to foreshadow the latter. Luke seems to be emotionally tired. I think his resignation and retirement of some sort might happen in the near future. Yoda kind of stepped down when he went in to exile on Dagobah, leaving hundreds of his Jedi Knights to be hunted down and killed - or in some cases, corrupted - by the Empire. I don't think that Yoda can be said to have been a Grand Master after 19 BBY because of this. What he did was probably the right thing to do considering how things turned out, yet still I feel that this was a case where Yoda had a moral responsibility towards the survivors of Order 66: He should have tried to help them. Yes, he would have almost certainly died. But Obi-wan, even as a Force Ghost, might have been able to train Luke on his own. ChildOfWinds posted: But if Luke steps down, what is he going to spend the rest of his life doing? Moping around and pining for his lost Mara and hoping to join her, as Ben suggested? At worst it could be like that, but he might end up still being the real power in the Jedi Order, like officially retired leaders often are, and officially retiring would give him more freedom: He could go on adventures or train Jedi in the Academy, whatever he wished, without being burdened by daily burocratic activies. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker, the new Jar-Jar!
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/22/08 7:37pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	masterskywalker "They could solve problems and mediate disputes together." Which would be boring as heck. Are you kidding?! The kinds of problems and disputes that Luke and Ben could get involved in would most likely require the use of "aggressive negotiations"! I think they would make a FINE team! Think of Luke and Mara in Thrawn's fortress and multiply the action by ten. I think it could be quite entertaining! NewStaryknight To your first post; IU it's because Luke has always had a deep fear of becoming like his father, has ever since those dreaded words "I am you father." it makes sense that Luke is in a very dark place right now when his own nephew killed his wife. Yes, losing Mara was a huge blow to Luke and he will grieve her loss forever, though the pain will lessen with time. But Luke already seems to have come to a calmer state about his wife's death. Luke didn't rant and rave and go out and chop up trees with his lightsaber when he found out that Jacen killed Mara. He quietly sat with his son and mourned. Luke ISN'T like his father and it does bother me that he was written as reacting just like Anakin Skywalker in Sacrifice. I truly don't believe the character would have done that. And I don't believe he should have been portrayed that way. Once again, I feel that Luke's character is being diminished and regressed in LotF in order to raise another character to hero status and in order to further a plotline. I don't feel that characters should be degraded in order to fit a plot. It seems that the authors wanted Jaina to be the hero of LotF. Personally, I think she was brought in as an important character too late in the series to make her work well in that role, but I could have accepted Jaina as the major hero in the story if it hadn't come at the expense of Luke Skywalker. Having Luke refuse to confront Jacen/Caedus for fear of going dark makes Luke like he's too weak emotionally and morally. It also means that Luke is shirking his duty and responsibility as Jedi Grandmaster to deal with a wayward former Jedi. And personally, I don't see Jaina as being less likely than Luke to go dark during the duel. Jacen IS her twin brother, after all. Jaina has a fiery spirit and temper; Jaina HAS touched the dark side. Luke is more forgiving; he's more of a redeemer. He also has the best chance to survive a duel with Jacen/Caedus. I really feel this confrontation in Invincible should be a Luke/Jacen confrontation. And I hope you're right that there WILL be joyful moments for Luke in the future. He certainly deserves them!
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/22/08 7:48pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Rouge77: It's either that Luke stays as a Grand Master until his death or that he retires at some point; I guess I hope that Luke won't retire as Grand Master. I agree that in LOTF Luke does seem to be emotionally tired. But I think resigning would be the wrong move for him. I think it would almost seem like Luke was giving up and giving in to his grief over Mara, like his hope for the future is gone. I think ESPECIALLY now that Luke no longer has Mara he needs something to give his life purpose, something to keep him active and focused; something useful to do, and what could be better than continuing his life's work, leading the Jedi ORder? he might end up still being the real power in the Jedi Order, like officially retired leaders often are, and officially retiring would give him more freedom: He could go on adventures or train Jedi in the Academy, But couldn't Luke still do that even as Jedi Grandmaster? He doesn't have to be stuck at the Jedi Temple, you know.
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 4/22/08 7:59pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Suggestion: maybe the last thing Luke needs to do is be Jedi Grandmaster. It's not really who he is. He's not a teacher at heart. He's not even a leader of an organization at heart. He's a pilot, a swordsman, a squad leader... he's a "hero," and heroes tend to do badly when stuck in leadership. The best thing that could happen to him is to resign his role and go wander the galaxy being the prototypical Jedi, leading by example (what he's actually good at, instead of bureaucracy). Lightsaber in hand, mad conflict resolution skills available, trusty droid at his side... that'd be so much more freeing for him. It's very nearly the next natural step for him. - Keralys -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/22/08 8:39pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/22/08 8:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Charlemagne19 I guess my point is that I consider Luke Skywalker a champion of the people who derives his enjoyment from saving innocent lives and kicking ass in the name of the Lor....err Force. Well, I guess Luke IS a doer, one who is always in the midst of the action. Luke Skywalker is sort of drawn to trouble like bees to honey. 1. I don't think it would diminish Mace Windu to have Luke be able to do Vapaad instinctively. Luke has always been pretty instinctive. He learned many Jedi skills all on his own. Things that he was taught he seemed to master rather quickly, and often added his own modifications, as with the hiding in the Force trick. And, as Arawn Fenn said, Luke has the Skywalker class midichlorian level. And I disagree that Mace would beat Luke most of the time. As Dart said, an opponent has only one chance against Luke. Afer that, Luke figures out ways to counter a given Force trick. 2. Fighting Shimmra he used something that appeared to be Force Lightning but James Luceno implies it wasn't. I'm glad to hear that James Luceno didn't intend for Luke to use Force Lightning in his battle with Shimrra and the Slayers. It was green, so I was hoping it was something else, something Lightside. I'm glad to hear this confirmed by the author. I don't like Jedi heroes using the dark side to get the job as you said Kyle Katarn apparently does. JK_Dart: Just like Luke is a combination of Jedi Master and Farmboy, I agree that the core of his character is a combination of adventure and redemption. Those four things together make for one very interesting character. I wish more authors would "get" this. Incidentally, a question for everyone; what's Luke's 'Shatterpoint'? I guess I would have to say family and friends. The death of Owen and Beru spurred Luke to fight the Empire. Han and Leia in trouble caused him to end his training early. His concern that Vader might turn Leia nearly caused him to fall to the darkside. The death of Mara caused him to kill Lumiya. The near fall of Ben to the darkside caused him to leave without finishing off Jacen in Inferno. But Luke's love of family and friends also saved Anakin Skywalker, and ultimately, the galaxy. It has also saved many others from darkness, like Mara and Kyp. Charlemagne19 However, if Luke redeemed Jacen, it's like Del Ray would expect Luke to somehow get Jacen off scott free. You're probably right about that, C, and I really wouldn't like that. I would like to see Luke redeem Jacen, but I don't think he should get off without consequences. I want to see Luke strip Jacen of the Force permanently, because I really think that would be even a worse punishment for Jacen than death. I don't think prison would do much good. I'd almost rather see Jacen then confined to the Jedi Academy, teaching others how to use the Force without ever being able to touch the Force again himself. Jacen would also be a living reminder to young Jedi of the dangers and consequences of using the dark side. Master_Keralys : Suggestion: maybe the last thing Luke needs to do is be Jedi Grandmaster. It's not really who he is. He's not a teacher at heart. He's not even a leader of an organization at heart. He's a pilot, a swordsman, a squad leader... he's a "hero," Well, I guess I agree that it would be good for Luke to wander the galaxy (and maybe the Unknown Regions too) leading by example as the "prototypical" Jedi, resolving conflicts wherever and whenever they occur. However, I guess I disagree about Luke as a teacher. While it certainly wasn't a role that I think he would have chosen as a Tatooine Farmboy, I think Luke has grown into this role very well. He's very patient and compassionate and has a strong work ethic...all qualities of a good teacher. So maybe, as I suggested in an earlier post, Luke could take an apprentice or two with him, teaching those young Jedi while wandering the galaxy resolving those conflicts.
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DarthGeist Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 4/22/08 8:40pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Back from the weekend everyone! Keralys I agree that Luke isn't really a teacher/administrator, but I believe that's what his character should evolve into. I personally think his characterization was "on track" in series like YJK and NJO, but not so much since the Dark Nest and beyond. -----signature----- "Women are like wookies: Let the wookie win." - My personal philosphy on conflict resolution in relationships "Not a good idea to tell a woman she's like a wookie. Doesn't translate" - My personal philosphy on avoiding relationship conflicts
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/22/08 8:52pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	DarthGeist I personally think his characterization was "on track" in series like YJK and NJO, but not so much since the Dark Nest and beyond. I think Luke's characterization was "on track" at the end of VotF and in the YJK books. I think he was on the right track with the Jedi Order at the end of VotF as well. In the NJO, not so much.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/22/08 8:53pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 4/22/08 8:54pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Honestly, I think Jacen Solo needs to spend the rest of his life in prison because otherwise we're going to have a dilution of the effect of his crimes. While he did it "off-camera", Jacen Solo is guilty of murdering millions of Wookiees. If we allow him to basically just chill back in the Temple with just a lack of the Force then essentially we're saying that those characters are 'less real' because they aren't part of the Skywalker clan. This just seems to make Luke's own judgement as a Grandmaster look more questionable. This isn't a case of Kyp Durron being brainwashed by Exar kun's ghost either, but a case of Jacen Solo knowingly and voluntarilly attempting to wipe out everyone on Kashkyyk. He can't even plead insanity.
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