Jedi Council Forums - SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)

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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 4/27/08 4:52pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Rouge77 posted: I would guess that it is probably Denning's own choice to make Invincible as short as it will be; that if he would have liked to make it longer, he could have done it - considering that we are getting 416 pages and 448 pages long hardcovers this year. Maybe that's the reason you guys are having trouble being optimistic about Invincible. There's so much to tie up and yet the book is so short. Does anybody know how many pages Betrayl and Sacrafice had?
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/27/08 5:42pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Maybe the Invincible page counts are wrong. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 4/27/08 6:45pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I would have thought that it would be at least in the 300's.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/27/08 6:46pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Jedi Ben You know what's really funny about you and DE? It isn't the story you loathe as much as the botched follow-up in the novels. Well, I wish DE wouldn't have been written at all. I think it completely negates RotJ and Luke's willingness to die to avoid the Dark Side. In DE Luke WILLINGLY learns about about the dark side and reads the Emperor's dark side books. Yes, it was to try to destroy Palpatine from within. But that was a truly foolish risk to take. But you're right that I loathe the "botched follow-up in the novels" even more. As far as I'm concerned, as foolish as Luke was to try to defeat the dark side by learning about the dark side, I don't believe he ever truly fell. He was an undercover agent who tried to help the Alliance by sabotaging Imperial plans and vehicles and sending the Alliance Imperial Codes. He did lose hope that he would ever be able to defeat the Emperor or get away from him after he was beaten in a duel by the one surviving Palpatine clone, but it just took Leia's words that Luke would train her children and he regained his confidence and defeated the Emperor. But some of the novels made it look like Luke was a real darksider who had truly been corrupted and fallen. After DE, the dark side was brought up frequently with Luke in the books, and he was sometimes portrayed as on the edge of darkness or actually doing dark things. Even in LotF, this continues, as Luke was written as going dark when he killed Lumiya for revenge. I blame all of these "dark Luke" portrayals on DE. * But Luke had a childhood which Cade didn't. Well, Cade seemed to have a pretty happy childhood for 14 years. It was then that his universe fell apart. You're right though that Luke had another 4 years of a normal childhood that Cade didn't, and at least Luke ended up with the Rebellion where he made good friends and felt that he could make a difference. You're right that Luke was able to get some satisfaction from being able to fight the Empire. That was far better than what Cade got with Rav. So there is SOME excuse for Cade, but I just think Luke is a lot different from his descendant; Luke's a lot more altruistic and unselfish. * The funny thing here is this point could as easily apply to Han Solo as to Luke! I think Han used to be a lot like Cade before he met Luke and Leia. Dawud786 CoW, you never liked DE? Really? I find that hard to believe. That and TTT really brought SW back in its day. I have always hated DE. As I wrote above, I truly think it did Luke a terrible disservice. Not only did it negate Luke's RotJ sacrifice and regress the character, but Luke's characterizations have suffered because of DE in many, many subsequent books. On the other hand, I LOVED TTT! I loved the way that Luke was portrayed as gifted even without the Force. I liked a lot more of the Bantam books than the Del Rey books. And I really HOPE that Invincible will be longer than 299 pages. Otherwise, I don't see how the story can be wrapped up adequately and convincingly. The fewer the pages, the less the likelihood that Luke will have a decent role in the book. NewStaryknight Does anybody know how many pages Betrayl and Sacrafice had? I don't know about Sacrifice, but Betrayal had 386 pages. I don't know what to say that can convince you that Luke is going to play a big role in the end. have a little faith. There has never been a final book yet that the Big 3 haven't seen alot of action. It seems that Han and Leia will get a lot of action. Luke seems to be the one who may not. And I really am not worried about Luke, Leia, or Han dying in Invincible. If it were going to happen, I think we would have already been reading about this BIG EVENT in the media. And they would be on the cover. But Luke's character may very well be written as weak and ineffective yet again, and I don't want that either.
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 4/27/08 6:55pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	ChildOfWinds posted: I don't know about Sacrifice, but Betrayal had 386 pages. Hmmmm. Thats still short by my estimations. The last Harry Potter book was 759. The thing is, there's not really a whole lot to wrap up anyway.
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Master-Chief-Kenobi Registered: Jun '07	Date Posted: 4/27/08 7:07pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I find Cade immensly interesting to read about. I Love watching his journy. He starts the comics being the physical embodyment of Del Rey star wars, whiney, dark, reluctant anti-hero. And as the series goes on we seem him slowly transform into the classic Luke kind of hero and i find that facinating. Cade talks big about not wanting to be a jedi, and whatnot but he always does the right thing in the end. Legacy #18 where Hosk died brought a huge smile to my face just to see Cade embrace Luke's legacy of the light,
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 4/28/08 3:53am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	COW, Well, I wish DE wouldn't have been written at all. I think it completely negates RotJ and Luke's willingness to die to avoid the Dark Side. In DE Luke WILLINGLY learns about about the dark side and reads the Emperor's dark side books. Yes, it was to try to destroy Palpatine from within. But that was a truly foolish risk to take. * Sorry, done a few hundred laps of this track previously and have it all memorised! But you're right that I loathe the "botched follow-up in the novels" even more. As far as I'm concerned, as foolish as Luke was to try to defeat the dark side by learning about the dark side, I don't believe he ever truly fell. He was an undercover agent who tried to help the Alliance by sabotaging Imperial plans and vehicles and sending the Alliance Imperial Codes. He did lose hope that he would ever be able to defeat the Emperor or get away from him after he was beaten in a duel by the one surviving Palpatine clone, but it just took Leia's words that Luke would train her children and he regained his confidence and defeated the Emperor. * Yeah, that's all it took, so why didn't it ever happen before? Well it did - DS2, with Vader. But why only then? Because prior attempts were by lone Jedi and the dark side tends to amplify the ego thus: I must do this because I am the only one who can etc... But some of the novels made it look like Luke was a real darksider who had truly been corrupted and fallen. After DE, the dark side was brought up frequently with Luke in the books, and he was sometimes portrayed as on the edge of darkness or actually doing dark things. Even in LotF, this continues, as Luke was written as going dark when he killed Lumiya for revenge. I blame all of these "dark Luke" portrayals on DE. * To which I retort that you're committing a blatant injustice, but we've been here before and before....and before... Well, Cade seemed to have a pretty happy childhood for 14 years. It was then that his universe fell apart. You're right though that Luke had another 4 years of a normal childhood that Cade didn't, and at least Luke ended up with the Rebellion where he made good friends and felt that he could make a difference. You're right that Luke was able to get some satisfaction from being able to fight the Empire. That was far better than what Cade got with Rav. So there is SOME excuse for Cade, but I just think Luke is a lot different from his descendant; Luke's a lot more altruistic and unselfish. * See I'm not so sure, I'm inclined to see the aftermath of Ossus as basically sickening Cade's soul to the point of destruction, yet not. I think Han used to be a lot like Cade before he met Luke and Leia. * Oh I'd say so but neither character was truly amoral either. I have always hated DE. * Yet not to the point where you aren't open to some truly devious reworkings of it! JB -----signature----- Excellence: "You are the forum's Quick Ben." SW EU fans: John Ostrander needs your help! http://www.comix4sight.com
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 4/28/08 7:31am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I never percieved DE as ruining Luke's character. It sort of deepens him, and his motivations for doing what he did were understandable I think. On the DS2 Luke Skywalker was a young man who'd seen a few years of war but was still extremely idealistic at his core. DE is 6 years after Endor. He's been battered by warfare for a decade now... warfare with the same Empire. Worse yet, he can sense a truly dark threat in this particular struggle with the Empire and he wants to understand his father... desperately. Mind you, at this piont in his life, Anakin's motivations for turning to the dark side of the Force are still a mystery to him. So he erroneously concludes that the good man that was his father must have wanted to stop the Emperor at all costs, and thus tried to go at him with a ruse and failed for some reason. So to his mind, he's following in his footsteps. I like the sleeper agent thing. Luke obviously wasn't nearly as consumed as his father given the short time he was under Palpatine's clone compared with Anakin with Sidious as of ROTS. I mean, Luke sabotaged World Devastators shortly after his "turning" while Anakin took the name Darth Vader immediately AND slaughtered every Jedi Master, Knight, Padawan and youngling in the Temple. DE deepens Luke's character no matter how you slice it. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/28/08 12:43pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	NewStaryknight The thing is, there's not really a whole lot to wrap up anyway. I disagree, Stary. I think lots of things need to be wrapped up!!! Jedi Ben * Sorry, done a few hundred laps of this track previously and have it all memorised! LOL! I think we both do! * Yeah, that's all it took, so why didn't it ever happen before? Well it did - DS2, with Vader. But why only then? But you know I don't feel it's the same, because I don't think Luke was ever evil. I don't think he ever completely fell, so there was really no need for him to be "redeemed". Now, Anakin Skywalker, on the other hand, not only fell, but remained dark for about 25 YEARS. * Oh I'd say so but neither character was truly amoral either. I'll agree with that, but I found Han more appealing than Cade, despite both being "grey". But I prefer heroes who behave like real heroes and don't do questionable things like anti-heroes are known to do. Luke used to be like that. I think it's unfortunate that the authors have written him as more grey. I think we can use some heroes who are truly lightside heroes and who almost always do what is right; heroes how won't step over the line of their own moral codes. I have always hated DE. * Yet not to the point where you aren't open to some truly devious reworkings of it! True, you and C and even Genghis found a way to make Luke seem almost NOBLE in DE. I liked your renditions. You never saw Luke as all that dark in DE either. Dawud786 I never percieved DE as ruining Luke's character. It sort of deepens him, I thought it darkened and diminished him and took some of the halo off of the hero. Luke swore in RotJ that he would never join the Emperor, that he would never turn to the dark side. Yet, DE made a liar out of Luke. Luke did join the Emperor (yes, to try to defeat him from within, but he joined him none the less). While I don't think that Luke was corrupted or did evil deeds, he DID learn about the dark side. He did read those dark side books. He WAS foolish to risk falling, and he came close to being lost to the dark side. And I thought his motivation for going to Byss was ridiculous. With the galaxy in chaos Luke Skywalker decides it's a good time to learn to understand his father????? Nope. Doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. So to his mind, he's following in his footsteps. Not exactly a great idea to try to follow in the footsteps of a Dark Lord of the Sith, I don't think. Luke obviously wasn't nearly as consumed as his father given the short time he was under Palpatine's clone compared with Anakin with Sidious as of ROTS. I mean, Luke sabotaged World Devastators shortly after his "turning" As I said, I saw Luke as an undercover agent in DE. I never saw him as dark. He didn't kill innocents or destroy worlds. In fact, he saved many Alliance lives by destroying Imperial property. DE deepens Luke's character no matter how you slice it. Then I guess I wish Luke's character weren't so deep. I like heroes who act like heroes and don't do questionable and truly foolish things.
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 4/28/08 2:54pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	ChildOfWinds posted: NewStaryknight The thing is, there's not really a whole lot to wrap up anyway. I disagree, Stary. I think lots of things need to be wrapped up!!! Aside from stopping Jacen/Cadeus and hopefully striking a peace between the Confederacy and the GA what else is their to do? I suppose its possible to mention old White Eyes and his Sith band again but thats about it.
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 4/28/08 4:13pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Hmmm... Would Luke's struggle with the Dark Side have been made as significant a plot if not for DE? I think it would've; forgive me, but it's an obvious plot, in that it can tread vaguely new ground while paying homage to the films. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/28/08 6:53pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	NewStaryknight Aside from stopping Jacen/Cadeus and hopefully striking a peace between the Confederacy and the GA what else is their to do? I suppose its possible to mention old White Eyes and his Sith band again but thats about it. Well, this is off-topic so I'll be brief and we can discuss it more in PMs if you wish. Some unresolved things: The GA is currently in two pieces. How will that be resolved? There is still a war going on. How will that play out? Will Corellia rejoin the GA? What will happen with the Imperial Remnant? Boba and the Mandos? What will happen with Jacen/Caedus? What will Luke do with the Jedi? Will they serve the GA again? What will Ben and Luke do in Invincible and afterwards? What about Tenel Ka and Allana? Han and Leia? Who will lead the GA when this is all over? Who will lead the Imperial Remnant? Will we see Old White eyes again? What about those tassels? Who was Han talking to when he said, "I loved you like a daughter" (or something like that) in Luke's vision? Will we ever see Ship again? J_K_DART Hmmm... Would Luke's struggle with the Dark Side have been made as significant a plot if not for DE? I think it would've; forgive me, but it's an obvious plot, in that it can tread vaguely new ground while paying homage to the films. But don't you think that Luke made his big darkside choice in RotJ and in TESB? He refused to join his father and rule as father and son in TESB. He was willing to die to avoid the dark side. This happened in RotJ too. Luke again chose death over the dark side. What more can you offer but your life? Luke did it twice. He passed his trials. He should have forever been a lightside Jedi without any major problems with the dark side, in my opinion. Look at Obi-wan. He managed to live his whole life without even being tempted by the dark. Luke beat his temptations in the films. I feel the dark side shouldn't be a struggle for Luke. He's a basically good person who has no interest in power or domination over others. He's not selfish. His personality is pretty even-keel most of the time. Except for his anger with Vader when he threatened Leia, Luke's been pretty even-tempered most of the time. If anything, I think the EU blew it's chance. I think we should have seen LEIA's struggles with the dark side instead. She has never had to pass a Jedi trial. She has a fiery personality. I think the darkside plot should have been about Leia, not Luke.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/28/08 7:28pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28395604/p1/?0 My opinion on Cade Skywalker needs another thread since it's offtopic. But yes, I support Dark Empire as the definitive EU portrayal of Luke Skywalker. Overall, I dislike a few elements (I think the "learn about my father" element makes no sense and confuses readers like Child of Winds who refuse to acknowledge the many other important factors Luke was going for) but I had no problem with Luke Skywalker breaking his ROTJ oath. Because he WOULD and that's called good characterization when you have a character voluntarily choose to break a usually deeply trusted creed because it makes sense in story sense. I hated recent Superman stories (as in a couple of years ago) where Magog attempted to get Superman to kill in order to save the lives of billions. The problem was that made no sense that Superman WOULDN'T.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 4/28/08 7:35pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 Yes, the idea that Luke went to Byss to learn about his father when people are dying and the galaxy is being devastated by the Emperor and his forces is absolutely ridiculous and extremely damaging to the character of Luke Skywalker, in my opinion. I had no problem with Luke Skywalker breaking his ROTJ oath. Because he WOULD and that's called good characterization when you have a character voluntarily choose to break a usually deeply trusted creed because it makes sense in story sense. Why do you think it made sense for Luke to break his oath and stupidly put himself and the galaxy at risk by learning about the darkside and putting himself under the thumb of the Emperor??? He's lucky he got out alive and with his soul intact!!!! Luke could have become another Darth Vader!
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 4/28/08 7:56pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	ChildOfWinds posted: Yes, the idea that Luke went to Byss to learn about his father when people are dying and the galaxy is being devastated by the Emperor and his forces is absolutely ridiculous and extremely damaging to the character of Luke Skywalker, in my opinion. I don't think so because you seem to be the only person in the world who believes that was his primary motivation. ChildOfWinds posted: Why do you think it made sense for Luke to break his oath and stupidly put himself and the galaxy at risk by learning about the darkside and putting himself under the thumb of the Emperor??? He's lucky he got out alive and with his soul intact!!!! Luke could have become another Darth Vader! Because it was the right thing to do. If Luke hadn't done it, then he would have died and the world would have been plunged into eternal darkness. The Emperor would have killed Luke Skywalker, claimed Leia's child, and then ruled the galaxy for all eternity. Then he would have drained all planets of their life energy and ultimately destroyed the entire universe. Luke also knew this. If he had confronted Palpatine with Leia before his confrontation then he might have had a chance but alone, he was doomed and to not join Palpatine would mean the end of all life everywhere. Yeah, so I would say it was the only SANE decision.
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