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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
DarkMastermind Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/3 6:22pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Hell, Han Solo didn't have a problem with his kids going off on jedi missions when they were kids during YJK.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/3 9:01pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Dawud786 Good point that all of the Jedi marriages we've seen in Luke's Order have worked out well. I agree that it was odd for Han to have misgivings about Jedi duty in Betrayal and being actually rather angry with Luke, especially since he was the one who talked Luke into allowing the teenagers to go on that fateful Myrkr mission when Luke had serious misgivings about it. And, as DM said, Han didn't seem to have any problem with his kids going off on missions in the YJK when they were even younger. Beccatoria has started a "book of the month club" basically, where we read a specific Bantam book and discuss it. This month's discussion topic is I, Jedi. I thought I'd post some of my thoughts about Luke's role in this book here. Some I posted in Becca's thread; others are new for this one. I remember that in the Jedi Academy Trilogy, I thought that some of Luke's Jedi training techniques seemed really strange and rather useless. I found myself saying, "WHAT?" quite a few times. I, Jedi made those training methods and practices make more sense. For example, when Luke took all of the apprentices into the grotto pool in the middle of the night in the JAT to go "skinny dipping", it seemed like a very ridiculous and useless exercise. Yet, through Corran's experience of this in becoming attuned to the Force and journeying with Luke through the galaxy, it seemed like a wonderous and important lesson. I always thought that Luke's decision to allow Kyp to become a Jedi after disposing of the Sun Crusher was a rather poor one. I thought Kyp deserved more punishment for killing so many people on Carida. Yet, in I, Jedi, Luke explained his decision this way, "In dedicating his life to being a Jedi, Kyp is really under something of a life sentence." Even Corran admits that he can't come up with a better solution and that killing Kyp wouldn't make the galaxy any better. That explanation made this decision make a little more sense. I think that Luke really needed someone like Corran Horn as he was restoring the Jedi Order from scratch. He needed someone to confide in; someone who interacted with him as an equal; someone to ground him. Luke had no Jedi colleagues or mentors when he started the Academy. Luke needed a friend and "sounding board" and Corran provided that for him. However, I do think that at times Corran was too opinionated and too bossy. He knew less about the Force and the Jedi than Luke did, but sometimes he acted as though HE were the Jedi Master. I thought he criticized Luke far too much. Stackpole made some sense of Luke's apathy and aloofness in the JAT, tying it to his not yet being fully recovered from his traumatic experiences on Byss where he nearly fell to the dark side. It's been said that Luke was portrayed as "too powerful" in some of the Bantam books, but it seemed to me that new Jedi Corran Horn did quite a few flashy things with the Force in I, Jedi that were even more powerful than anything Luke did. For example, Corran contained the explosion of Shala's warehouse single-handedly by causing a fiery cyclone. Then he projected into the minds of everyone the image of a giant man holding a lightsaber. And that's right after completing an abbreviated version of Jedi training. I greatly disliked the lightsaber "duel" between Luke and Corran. I truly feel that even if Luke wasn't used to "rough and tumble" growing up, even if Luke was distracted, he still should have come out the winner in that little duel. When a Jedi Master goes against a Jedi apprentice with one month's training, there should be no doubt about the outcome: The Jedi Master should be victorious, in my opinion. I had the opportunity to talk to Mike Stackpole one-on-one for about fifteen minutes right when I, Jedi was published, and when I told him that this scene bothered me, Stackpole said that Luke's mind wasn't on the fight; that he didn't really care about it; that he was distracted and not really concentrating. He said that if Luke had been paying attention that Luke would have "mopped the floor" with Corran, and that Corran knew it. But it still bugged me. I did enjoy the camaraderie between Luke and Corran on the ship on the way to Susevi, and I liked the way they worked together when they freed Mirax. I thought it was very funny when Corran thought to himself that the only help Luke would have needed from him was to "hold his cloak" when they were fighting the Jensaari. As arrogant as Corran was through most of the book though, and as much as he seemed to lecture Luke throughout, and as much as he didn't seem to agree with Luke about much, I was pleased that he referred to Luke as "My Jedi Master" at one point, and that at the end, he told Luke if he ever needed Corran Horn or "Keiran Halcyon", they would be available for him. He did seem to come to respect Luke at the end. And Corran certainly became one of Luke's greatest and most trusted Jedi supporters in the NJO, DN, and LotF books. I liked Corran better in later books than I did in I, Jedi. I think he's reined in his arrogance quite a lot. Another thing that I said to Mike Stackpole in our chat was that I really liked the first person style of the book and that as much as I hate Dark Empire, that I'd like to see a novelization of DE told from Luke's perspective, written in first person. Maybe that way we'd really find out what Luke was thinking before, during, and after his time on Byss, and why he decided to go to Byss and what he hoped to accomplish Stackpole said he'd love to write such a book. Too bad it's never been done, as maybe then Luke's reasons for going to Byss might make more sense. Actually, I'd like ANY book written in first person from Luke's point of view. Any other comments about Luke in I, Jedi?
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DarkMastermind Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/3 9:20pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Well, it's been a long time since I've even read I, Jedi, and from what I remember, the book wasn't even about Luke. Not to make fun of Child of Winds or anything but I think if we're going to talk about Luke's actions in any book it should be one that focuses on him, not one where he's a peripheral character. Still CoW made some good points, and it would be awesome to have a book told from Luke's perspective, or any characters perspective for that matter. I mean, I wanna know what the hell everyon'e been thinking since NJO!
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/4 2:30am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Ever read a book where a character isn't present but nonetheless hovers over the story throughout, with much of it returning back to that character? That's IJ. Through the entire story Corran keeps measuring himself against Luke, sometimes thinking he's better than him, or knows something he doesn't and what happens? Corran finds Luke knew all right but wasn't being an egoistic arse about it. By the end Corran realises Luke is way ahead of him, but there's nothing wrong with that, he's gained true confidence in his own skills. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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Lord_Riven Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 5/4 3:01am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/4 3:01am (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Riven
	It was a good use of Luke without making Luke the main character. Stackpole achieved a good balance between having Luke in it but not too much of Luke. He was used well as a supporting character without making him seem like the main character or just stuck in there because he is Luke Skywalker (for the sake of having Luke in the book). I think it sets the bar as to how to use Luke as NOT a main character -----signature----- Legacy AU fic: Family Ties. Follow the link in the next line. http://www.fanfiction.net/~darthriven Casiah - Cade Skywalker x Marasiah Fel 'shipper (#1) Canderous >>> Boba Fett
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/4 7:46am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/4 7:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	DarkMastermind : Well, it's been a long time since I've even read I, Jedi, and from what I remember, the book wasn't even about Luke. Well, first of all, this IS a thread about Luke's characterizations. Luke was hardly in Revelation at all, and I doubt that he will be in Invincible very much either, but we discuss Luke's roles here, whether they're big or small. Unfortunately, lately Luke's roles all seem to be rather small. But I think it's time for a reread of I, Jedi for you! Luke was VERY much an important character in I, Jedi. Corran was the major hero, yes, but Luke was the second most important character in the book. He wasn't a peripheral character at all. Much of the story was basically about Luke and his first class of Jedi students on Yavin IV. Corran was one of those students, so I, Jedi is, to a large extent, a retelling of the Jedi Academy Trilogy from Corran's perspective. As Jedi Ben said, this is a book in which Luke hovers over the story throughout, even when he's not on the page. Corran does measure himself against Luke in the book. At first, he arrogantly thinks he knows a whole lot more than Luke does, but by the end, Corran realizes he didn't know nearly as much as he thought. He ends up with a real respect for Luke. One that has continued throughout the EU. Corran has always been one of Luke's major supporters. Plus, Luke does have an adventure with Corran later in the book, in which he helps Corran rescue Mirax. And Corran was extremely impressed with the way in which Luke handled the Jensaari! I agree with Lord_Riven that I, Jedi was a great use of Luke without making Luke the main character. It does set the bar of how to use Luke but not have him be the major hero. And yes, wouldn't it be great to have a book from Luke's perspective?!
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/4 11:01am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Lord_Riven posted: It was a good use of Luke without making Luke the main character. Stackpole achieved a good balance between having Luke in it but not too much of Luke. He was used well as a supporting character without making him seem like the main character or just stuck in there because he is Luke Skywalker (for the sake of having Luke in the book). I think it sets the bar as to how to use Luke as NOT a main character Yep. I agree. This should be Luke's place in the continuing EU after LOTF. Seriously... I love Luke Skywalker, but if we're going to talk about ways to save his character it's to NOT have him always be the central force in the stories and the authors have to come up with contrived ways to make the stories they want to tell work without Luke smacking down any upstart nephew challengers right from the get go. LOTF has been one long contrivance to keep Luke from putting Jacen in his place from the start, let alone giving the kid a lecture about the dark side of the Force from the man that witnessed first hand Darth Vader's cruelty even to those he loved AND recieved training from a mad clone of Sidious AND read Sidious' own writings on the subject of the dark side. Let alone who has access to the Telos Holocron that Sidious is the gatekeeper of! The man who encountered almost all the Force-using traditions that Jacen spent time with decades before Jacen was even a Jedi apprentice. The list goes on and on. There's no reason that a man who can take down the Sith Lord that was basically Dark Side Incarnate should have any sort of challenge from a nephew like Jacen, and he shouldn't pussyfoot around what he's feeling that dude do. I'd like an I, Jedi for Leia. Let's give her some time to really shine as a Jedi Knight/Master with her brother obviously looming over the story but not being the central figure. I, Jedi Leia Skywalker Organa Solo would also have Anakin Skywalker looming over the story as well. Ben, too. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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DarkMastermind Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/4 11:28am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I think every character should have a story told from their perspective. Has i said earlier, I wanna know what the hell everyone's been thinking since NJO!
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/4 11:29am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Dawud786 posted: Yep. I agree. This should be Luke's place in the continuing EU after LOTF. Seriously... I love Luke Skywalker, but if we're going to talk about ways to save his character it's to NOT have him always be the central force in the stories and the authors have to come up with contrived ways to make the stories they want to tell work without Luke smacking down any upstart nephew challengers right from the get go. LOTF has been one long contrivance to keep Luke from putting Jacen in his place from the start, let alone giving the kid a lecture about the dark side of the Force from the man that witnessed first hand Darth Vader's cruelty even to those he loved AND recieved training from a mad clone of Sidious AND read Sidious' own writings on the subject of the dark side. Let alone who has access to the Telos Holocron that Sidious is the gatekeeper of! The man who encountered almost all the Force-using traditions that Jacen spent time with decades before Jacen was even a Jedi apprentice. The list goes on and on. There's no reason that a man who can take down the Sith Lord that was basically Dark Side Incarnate should have any sort of challenge from a nephew like Jacen, and he shouldn't pussyfoot around what he's feeling that dude do. Telos Holocron? I find myself in agreement with Dawud, the notion that anyone knows the dark side better than Luke is ludicruos when you factor in the adversaries he has faced. If there's an MO for Luke it's that he gives a chance to those who believes can come back, thus Brakiss is given a chance but refuses it twice over. Each time Luke knows exactly how and why this is and in their final confrontation in the YJK books, Luke defeats Brakiss without killing him. He doesn't kill him because he doesn't need to nor does he have to. In contrast, Luke lops Shimmraa's head with a pair of lightsabers! Nor did he try to redeem Exar Kun. Of these aspects, it's arguably the latter that has been forgotten in favour of the redeemer element, but not every foe can be redeemed and, in some cases, they may represent such a threat that it's foolish to try, as doing so risks defeat and what does that mean in turn for the galaxy? I'd say from the start DR were unduly influenced by a fan notion of Luke being too powerful and so they have sought to restrain him in all manner of ways, some better than others, but even DR fans would probably admit they tend to be lacking overall. DR are caught to a degree between Scylla (Luke as Superman = bad) and Charybdis (Luke as inactive = wrong) and seem unable to find a middle path through it. At the same time they've been erratic, going from one extreme to the other, thus Luke is kept in check for the bulk of a story and is then used to smash the villain through a planet or two, in a couple of paragraphs. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/4 11:40am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Telos Holocron, it's in the Essential Guide to the Force. It was new to me, but that book was "written" by Tionne Solusar during this whole LOTF debacle. Presumably before she was mutiliated by that GAG nut. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/4 7:01pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/4 7:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Dawud786 Seriously... I love Luke Skywalker, but if we're going to talk about ways to save his character it's to NOT have him always be the central force in the stories and the authors have to come up with contrived ways to make the stories they want to tell work without Luke smacking down any upstart nephew challengers right from the get go. While I basically agree with you, I don't think Luke can step down and be a background character right away for two reasons: 1) The next generation characters aren't ready to step up and take over yet, in my opinion. Ben and Allana are too young; Jacen is a Sith Lord; and Jaina can't carry the novel franchise by herself. So Luke is still needed to light the way. 2) Because Luke was written so horribly in LotF, I feel he needs to be repaired in some of the post-LotF books. I'm not ready to just have Luke play a minimal role until he has been portrayed as a smart, wise, competent, successful Jedi Master and leader. Once that happens and the character of Luke Skywalker can be respected again both in-universe and without by fans, then yes, I can see Luke playing a smaller role in the books. Now if Luke is given an important and useful part to play, as he was in I, Jedi, then fine. I can certainly accept having Luke be a hero, but just not the most important hero. But whatever is done in the future, I think the character NEEDS to be written with more respect. No more specter of the darkside; no more indecisiveness; no more cluelessness and incompetence. Luke needs to be shown as successful at what he does, and as a model Jedi and leader of the Jedi. He needs to be shown as always doing what is right, nothing that is questionable. Luke's been diminished and regressed too much in most of the NJO, DN, and now in LotF. It's time for the authors to turn this around and give us a really great Luke characterization. I agree that LOTF has been "one long contrivance to keep Luke from putting Jacen in his place from the start, let alone giving the kid a lecture about the dark side of the Force". And not having Luke put Jacen in his place from the start has made Luke look weak and like an idiot. As you pointed out, Luke knows more about all aspects of the Force and more about the dark side than anyone. There IS no reason why Luke, who took down "... the Sith Lord that was basically Dark Side Incarnate" should have had any problem dealing with Jacen. Luke should have known right from the beginning that Jacen was going dark, and should have done something about it. But in order for Del Rey's plot to work, Luke had to be written as clueless and incompetent. And, they had to taint him with the dark side again, which I hate more than anything. As I keep saying, heroes shouldn't be brought down to the level of the villains. I'd like an I, Jedi for Leia. Let's give her some time to really shine as a Jedi Knight/Master with her brother obviously looming over the story but not being the central figure. I, Jedi Leia Skywalker Organa Solo would also have Anakin Skywalker looming over the story as well. I agree that this would make a very interesting story. But I want to see one from Luke's point of view too.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/4 7:29pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Actually, Windy, there's no reason why Jacen couldn't beat Luke. It's not like Jacen's not in the same league as Luke anyway. Luke shouldn't be treated like he's going to be at his 100% best every fight. Furthermore, someone vastly weaker than Palptine defeated him (Luke Skywallker) in DE just as Luke was an insect to Vader yet defeated him in RotJ. I don't have a problem with someone weaker than Luke clobbering him, just as long as they're clever about it or Luke gets to look Awesome even in defeat (like Kol Skywalker). -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/5 7:19pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 Actually, Windy, there's no reason why Jacen couldn't beat Luke. It's not like Jacen's not in the same league as Luke anyway. Well, Luke certainly seemed to literally put Jacen in his place in Inferno (or was it Fury, these books run together) when Luke stuck Jacen to his seat. But you're right that a weaker Jedi can defeat a more powerful one given the right circumstances, like Corran Horn in I, Jedi. Luke definitely wasn't at his 100 percent best there! I really would like to see a fight between Luke and Jacen where they use all of the skills and techniques at their disposal from all of the different Force groups that they learned from. It would be a truly epic fight. I don't have a problem with someone weaker than Luke clobbering him, just as long as they're clever about it or Luke gets to look Awesome even in defeat (like Kol Skywalker). But therein lies the problem. Luke hasn't been allowed to look as you say, "Awesome in defeat". Look at how poorly he came out in the fights with Lumiya. In the first one, he lost both weapons and a hand. In the second one, he was tricked by her when she seemed to be holding out a hand of friendship. And the third time, she got the last laugh because she got the great Luke Skywalker, Jedi Grandmaster, to kill her for revenge.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/5 7:21pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Oh come on, it was hilarious. Lumiya strapped a nuclear bomb (proton torpedoes have about 40 megatons or so don't they?) to herself and then she STILL couldn't beat Luke! -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Lord_Riven Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 5/6 4:16am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/6 4:17am (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Riven
	Then I think the weakness is not in the story, it is in the way that it is conveyed to the audience. Yes, Lumiya couldn't beat Luke, but the way it was written and presented, though she lost the fight, it seemed like they were making her win the war. And I would love a Leia POV novel - and we definitely need to expand on what she did post Truce at Bakura in regards to Anakin Skywalker's Force Ghost (and we need to definitely definitively set when Leia became a full fledged Jedi). Have Luke in it too for some good family bonding as a minor character. -----signature----- Legacy AU fic: Family Ties. Follow the link in the next line. http://www.fanfiction.net/~darthriven Casiah - Cade Skywalker x Marasiah Fel 'shipper (#1) Canderous >>> Boba Fett
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