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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
Sinrebirth Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 5/6 5:04am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Dawud786 posted: Telos Holocron, it's in the Essential Guide to the Force. It was new to me, but that book was "written" by Tionne Solusar during this whole LOTF debacle. Presumably before she was mutiliated by that GAG nut. It's written straight after Sacrifice, I believe, with a postscript by a Jedi fleeing from Ossus carrying Tionne's guide. The Telos Holocron was a Sith Holocron they discovered shortly before the Guide, and it's Gatekeeper is a youthful Palpatine... Riven, CoW: If anyone survives a fight with Luke it's a win, generally. That's the way Luke is. If you survive, you've won. If you die, it takes a pretty special person to turn that into a win. And if it happens to be a Rule of Two Sith - Sith whom have proven themselves the most dangerous and/or powerful in all Star Wars - I'm content with it. As only two individuals have turned their deaths into wins; Sidious and Lumiya. Rather than demeaning Luke, I think this just sums up just how amazingly dangerous Rule of Two Sith are... Which is what we want, rather than a dozen Kueller's, Brakiss', Nyax's and the like, I reckon. Enemies that we still need to be concerned by even with Luke Skywalker about. I don't feel it's artificial at all, to be honest. Caedus is simply an extension of that logic. Lomi Plo too, in a limited fashion - but even she is a Sith! -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The First Canon Apologist The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 4.5 is up! Now Featuring: Niathal, Daala, Syal, Wedge, Winter & Tycho!
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MasterSkywalker86 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/6 7:42am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I think we can sum up Luke as the Superman of Star Wars in battles. but even the latter has been written to multple loses. still I agree with Child we haven't seen him demonstrate displays of the Force to the extent of TUF lately. -----signature----- " The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."-Darth Vader "Anakin wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."- George Lucas
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Ayukawa Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/6 2:38pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	This has been an interesting thread to watch and read. So, I've decided to input my two cents (one cent adjusted for inflation) worth on this topic. But I want to provide some caveats for those who read my post. I've read ad hoc of the post ROTJ literature, so I might not know all of the backstory of the EU Luke. But I have read Thrawn Trilogy but I gave up on the story of Luke during the Dark Empire graphic novels. As for the JAT, I can't stand it. So, huge chunks of Luke Skywalker backstory is unknown to me. Also, I tried to jump into the NJO series and well, I gave up. Asking me to follow 15+ books for a storyline is a bit much for me. I guess my experience with the Star Wars EU literature has been quite hit and miss. What I am driving at and how it relates to saving Luke Skywalker as a character is this. I don't really think you can develop anything more from him. He's been through countless crises and problems. I think you can only put someone into literary danger so many times, before turning that character into a caricature. I think it's harder to empathize with him without making him removed from who he is/was at ROTJ. At this point in his life during LOTF series, he'd either end up catatonic from the trauma or wholly insane like the clone Joruus. So, in conclusion, I feel that it would be best for Luke to retire and walk off into the sunset or die a dramatic death fitting a main character of the Star Wars Saga. I'm not naive to enough to expect Del Rey to give in like that because of matter of franchise and profitability, but I think it would be for the best. Luke has had a great run, but he needs to die a hero, not fade into dismal retirement.
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MariahJade2 Title: FanFic Archive Editor Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 5/6 4:39pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	CoW has been relentlessly hounding me to post even though I don't feel at home in lit anymore, because of the current state of things. I will say that I can't agree that Luke should be fading off into the sunset any time soon. I'd possibly agree at some point in the far distant future, if I felt he had been done justice in his deveopment till now, but he hasn't IMO. One of the problems is that putting him in literary danger seemed to be one of the few things they did to develop him as a person. Deveoping him in other ways was generally not done well, with little page space, in short snippets. Either that or he was OOC half the time. And that's just it. Who Luke was shouldn't necessarily change so much as learn and adapt. Most people I know still like and dislike a lot of the same things they did when they were younger, they just add on new things and become more knowledgable about the world, sometimes they realize mistakes, they learn and grow from them but core of a person doesn't change all that much unless something life changing happens. Protests Mara's death Luke and all of the gang became less then what they were before and that's not the way of heroes. And darn it we need our heroes. I'm still waiting for one book from Lukes POV and how many years has it been? And this was the very symbol of SW's for many. -----signature----- Have a question or suggestion for the Archive? PM me anytime. "You spin me right 'round baby right 'round"...
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Ayukawa Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/6 5:43pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/6 5:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ayukawa
	I can understand the feeling that Luke has not been given his proper due as a good character as a novel should be. The majority of his base personality is founded on our knowledge of the events in the OT. But the problem with that is he's already a full grown adult by the time he travels with Obi-Wan off of Tatooine. What were the shaping influences in his moral/ethical outlook on life and towards the Jedi before he became one? How about his ability to socialize, make and keep friendships. We all know from ANH that Biggs is his friend, but then he dies in the attack on the Death Star. I think the exposition on the formative years of Luke's childhood would go a long way to help establish him. But sadly we have to rely on after he has matured into a young adult. So, we have a person who develops from and through crisis and in the end discovers a new world on the other side. Would this new world or being conflict with his personal feelings or assumptions/attitudes from his younger years? I don't know if this will ever happen. Possibly due to the fact that the OT is Lucas's domain and he may prefer not to flesh Luke out anymore than he has been in the movies and the novelizations. But I do think this opaque history does hamper other author's efforts to develop Luke outside of this savior/hero/warrior medicant. But if the childhood story was to be written, it would have a very difficult or maybe impossible time being able to align correctly with all the extra EU post-ROTJ baggage. It's always easier to write forward then it is to return to the beginning and expect it to make any sense at all. But in the end, I do agree that Luke is getting the short shrift.
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/6 8:25pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/6 8:28pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ChildOfWinds
	Sinrebirth Riven, CoW: If anyone survives a fight with Luke it's a win, generally. That's pretty much what I was saying: Luke lost all of those three fights with Lumiya. Plus, he lost to Jacen in LotF and to Lomi Plo in DN. I don't like that Luke is portrayed as so weak that he rarely takes out the villain. As you said, both Lumiya and Palpatine turned their deaths into wins too. And I disagree with you. I think that DOES demean Luke Skywalker and makes him look weak and inept. That's not what I want. This is why I feel that we need to have other Luke books post LotF, books in which he IS shown as powerful, successful, competent, wise, decisive, and ESPECIALLY : morally good, before Luke is shoved into the background or killed off. MasterSkywalker86 , good to see you back in SOS! You're right. We haven't seen Luke demonstrate powerful displays of the Force very much. More important to me though is that Luke be portrayed as doing the right thing at all times, as being a good role model for the other Jedi, AND as being successful in accomplishing his missions. Ayukawa , welcome to the SOS thread! In my opinion, you didn't miss much by not reading all of the NJO! While I agree that Luke has been through countless crises and problems, I don't agree that he can't be developed further. In fact, I think it's very necessary that Luke be developed in future books. I think Luke has truly regressed and been degraded since VotF, and I think he needs to be "repaired". I don't want Luke to ultimately be remembered as an incompetent, clueless loser, whose last major action was a vengeance killing. Luke has NOT been handled well in the NJO, DN, and LotF. I think a real effort needs to be made to reinstate the character of Luke Skywalker to Lightside hero status, and to right his moral compass again. Furthermore, I want Luke to be written as a decisive, respected, smart, and successful Jedi leader. Then I'm willing to have Luke play more of a supporting role rather than a main role. But not until Luke has been redeveloped well. MariahJade2 Who Luke was shouldn't necessarily change so much as learn and adapt. they learn and grow from mistakes, but the core of a person doesn't change all that much unless something life changing happens. Luke and all of the gang became less then what they were before and that's not the way of heroes. And darn it we need our heroes. EXACTLY! And you're right that we don't get very much from Luke's point of view. Why is that anyway???
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/6 8:38pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	That's pretty much what I was saying: Luke lost all of those three fights with Lumiya. sad Plus, he lost to Jacen in LotF and to Lomi Plo in DN. I don't like that Luke is portrayed as so weak that he rarely takes out the villain. sad I DON'T consider survival a win. Did Luke win against Darth Vader in ESB? No. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Lord_Riven Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 5/7 2:47am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/7 2:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Riven
	Charlemagne19 posted: That's pretty much what I was saying: Luke lost all of those three fights with Lumiya. sad Plus, he lost to Jacen in LotF and to Lomi Plo in DN. I don't like that Luke is portrayed as so weak that he rarely takes out the villain. sad I DON'T consider survival a win. Did Luke win against Darth Vader in ESB? No. QFT. So they survived...but that's not a win. -----signature----- Legacy AU fic: Family Ties. Follow the link in the next line. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3751906/1/Star_Wars_Legacy_Family_Ties Casiah - Cade Skywalker x Marasiah Fel 'shipper (#1) Canderous >>> Boba Fett
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DarkMastermind Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/7 5:54am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 posted: I DON'T consider survival a win. Did Luke win against Darth Vader in ESB? No. Well take into account that at the time Luke didn't have nearly as much knowledge and skill has he does currently, and probably wouldn't have been able to beat Vader in the Empire Strikes Back.
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Sinrebirth Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 5/7 7:36am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	ChildOfWindsThat's pretty much what I was saying: Luke lost all of those three fights with Lumiya. Plus, he lost to Jacen in LotF and to Lomi Plo in DN. I don't like that Luke is portrayed as so weak that he rarely takes out the villain. That's not weak. Lomi Plo had one over Luke because she was utterly alien to him in her technique. He beat Alema and Welk with little effort. Lumiya had her backside handed to her in Tempest, for all her surviving. As you said, both Lumiya and Palpatine turned their deaths into wins too. And I disagree with you. I think that DOES demean Luke Skywalker and makes him look weak and inept. That's not* what I want.* CoW, no offense here, but then your Star Wars is darn boring. No matter the threat, Luke should walk into it and end it. That's not interesting, in the slightest. Sure, he's Luke Skywalker, but clearly the Sith, without an awesome bloodline beside them, have reached the level where he is needed to stop them. Sidious took a thousand years of intense effort to create. It's the same with Yoda, I suppose, to a degree, but Luke took up the Yoda role and people still complained. It really simply sounds like you'd like Star Wars to end with Luke, CoW... This is why I feel that we need to have other Luke books post LotF, books in which he IS shown as powerful, successful, competent, wise, decisive, and ESPECIALLY : morally good, before Luke is shoved into the background or killed off. And the story won't last very long? Even then, we have a very good characterisation of Luke through LotF - in my opinion, of course; He was all those things in Betrayal, and the plan didn't work. Because Sith arethat good. Okay, he can't be successful all the time. He took a backseat and then went after Lumiya, sensing she was at the heart of things, from Bloodlines. Competence and decisive, and morally good and powerful. He practically kills Lumiya at Roquo Depot. He is duped by Lumiya for his compassion, and is betrayed by her. He humanly loses it, and realises he's been too much of a Yoda. He goes after Lumiya, with the wrong intent. Him being morally good took a severe drumming, but an 'eye for an eye' has it's own adherents. He kills the wrong person. He collapses, because he shouldn't have done it. He goes for Jacen darn angry at Ben's torture. Doesn't even try to redeem him anymore. Luke recovers, slowly. Very slowly. He then goes after Caedus as a Jedi, first foiling him, and then attempting to deprogram him like Raynar Thul. He fails at the latter, because Caedus is a Sith, and not a random misguided Dark Jedi, and not a shattered man like Vader. I'm struggling to understand whether your gripe is with Luke Skywalker not having a stationary characterisation, or Star Wars in general. I'm trying hard to understand, but Luke simply isn't God. If he was God, Star Wars wouldn't be worth following anymore, for me, anyway... He is human. And that's why we love him, isn't it? The world is a dark place at the moment, and flights of fairy tales like the OT don't fly after 2000. The stories out there are nitty and dark and realistic. But the world is wondering through a dose of moral relativity at the moment, I'd guess. -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The First Canon Apologist The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 4.5 is up! Now Featuring: Niathal, Daala, Syal, Wedge, Winter & Tycho!
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/7 10:30am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	DarkMastermind posted: Well take into account that at the time Luke didn't have nearly as much knowledge and skill has he does currently, and probably wouldn't have been able to beat Vader in the Empire Strikes Back. Lumiya forced Luke to pull out some tricks and damaged his robot hand. Whoop de do. Giving him a hard fight just means she's a worthy adversary. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/7 11:12am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Sinny, CoW, no offense here, but then your Star Wars is darn boring. No matter the threat, Luke should walk into it and end it. That's not interesting, in the slightest. Sure, he's Luke Skywalker, but clearly the Sith, without an awesome bloodline beside them, have reached the level where he is needed to stop them. Sidious took a thousand years of intense effort to create. * Actually, I'd say it moves SW into the realm of Judge Dredd! Of course that raises the question of how interesting is a serious Dredd approach and the answer isn't much, Dredd has been so successful due to its mix of social and political satire, Dredd varying fro story to story, from heavy to hero, right to wrong whilst always being legally right. It's a story with a degree of flexibility SW doesn't have. I'm struggling to understand whether your gripe is with Luke Skywalker not having a stationary characterisation, or Star Wars in general. I'm trying hard to understand, but Luke simply isn't God. If he was God, Star Wars wouldn't be worth following anymore, for me, anyway... He is human. And that's why we love him, isn't it? The world is a dark place at the moment, and flights of fairy tales like the OT don't fly after 2000. The stories out there are nitty and dark and realistic. But the world is wondering through a dose of moral relativity at the moment, I'd guess. * I'm not so sue I'd agree that moral relativism is the answer, but then neither is moral simplicity! The question of our time is: How do you best deal with a highly adaptable enemy, that despises all you are with maniacal intensity, that resists all traditional approaches? The answer to this is, by its very nature, going to be complex. I think this is why the Legacy comic has been so successful as it seeks to deliver a morally complex but not relativistic tale. There are differences between all the players, both individual and organisations. Legacy doesn't take the easy option of simply saying: Well, they're all relatively equal. It forces the reader to contemplate, evaluate and consider the various agendas, actions and morality. * The strange thing is that what I propose above shouldn't be a problem for Luke, for he's was dealing with complex questions in the OT: How to defeat his father? Luke found an answer none of the older characters even thought to look for! I think things went wrong with Luke and the Jedi when the PT advanced the idea that Jedi don't need to think, because the Force tells them all they need to know. As a viewpoint of an order that is going to fall, it works very well. As a tenet of a new, successor order, it's more problematic. * Also one of the foundations of western thought is the use of practical reason, the concept of Philosopher Kings has been around a long time. The Jedi are in a way Philosopher Enforcers, you could also liken them to Shaolin Monks - they're perfectly willing to be peaceful, but give them trouble and you'll get your head kicked in! I guess I'm not comfortable with the notion of The Force = Dispenser of Instant Wisdom. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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Sinrebirth Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 5/7 11:26am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	JB: * Actually, I'd say it moves SW into the realm of Judge Dredd! Of course that raises the question of how interesting is a serious Dredd approach and the answer isn't much, Dredd has been so successful due to its mix of social and political satire, Dredd varying fro story to story, from heavy to hero, right to wrong whilst always being legally right. It's a story with a degree of flexibility SW doesn't have. Intriguing. SW, on the other hand, frequently mixing legality with morality, and right and wrong with justice, too. Yet you believe that SW doesn't have the flexibility for it? Or does Luke Skywalker not have the flexibility? * I'm not so sue I'd agree that moral relativism is the answer, but then neither is moral simplicity! The question of our time is: How do you best deal with a highly adaptable enemy, that despises all you are with maniacal intensity, that resists all traditional approaches? The answer to this is, by its very nature, going to be complex. I think this is why the Legacy comic has been so successful as it seeks to deliver a morally complex but not relativistic tale. There are differences between all the players, both individual and organisations. Legacy doesn't take the easy option of simply saying: Well, they're all relatively equal. It forces the reader to contemplate, evaluate and consider the various agendas, actions and morality. Hmmm. While LotF has engaged in the complex question, Legacy has displayed each side and given you the choice to pick one, and all of us find which side we fall on - True Empire, Sith Empire, Jedi, GA, Calixte - has it's own share of flaws. Interesting point, Ben. * The strange thing is that what I propose above shouldn't be a problem for Luke, for he's was dealing with complex questions in the OT: How to defeat his father? Luke found an answer none of the older characters even thought to look for! I think things went wrong with Luke and the Jedi when the PT advanced the idea that Jedi don't need to think, because the Force tells them all they need to know. As a viewpoint of an order that is going to fall, it works very well. As a tenet of a new, successor order, it's more problematic. True, Luke did, but Luke knew he was being fashioned to be a weapon and so he had to tailor his answers differently, I imagine. So the Force being a Dispenser of Instant Wisdom probably seemed the most logical answer, what with the growth of the concept that the Force encompasses all - even those beyond Jedi senses i.e. Yuuzhan Vong... * Also one of the foundations of western thought is the use of practical reason, the concept of Philosopher Kings has been around a long time. The Jedi are in a way Philosopher Enforcers, you could also liken them to Shaolin Monks - they're perfectly willing to be peaceful, but give them trouble and you'll get your head kicked in! I guess I'm not comfortable with the notion of The Force = Dispenser of Instant Wisdom. That is a quite amusing image. For some reason Jet Li is running around with a lightsaber for me. It depends, doesn't it, on whether you view the Force as a deity with an agenda - like Kreia - or something with a natural flow and natural answers like Luke and so forth seem to have viewed it... -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The First Canon Apologist The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 4.5 is up! Now Featuring: Niathal, Daala, Syal, Wedge, Winter & Tycho!
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/7 11:35am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Sinny, Intriguing. SW, on the other hand, frequently mixing legality with morality, and right and wrong with justice, too. Yet you believe that SW doesn't have the flexibility for it? Or does Luke Skywalker not have the flexibility? * To be a Dredd-style story? No, I don't think so. One of the reasons given for the failure of Dredd in the US is that Americans take it at face value and don't get the joke. Dredd's quite a subversive tale in a way SW isn't. This doesn't mean SW does not have any flexibility or a style of its own though. Although I do think SW, where DR is concerned, has been lacking confidence. True, Luke did, but Luke knew he was being fashioned to be a weapon * Did he? In IJ he seems to view the suggestion by Corran as something new to him. and so he had to tailor his answers differently, I imagine. So the Force being a Dispenser of Instant Wisdom probably seemed the most logical answer, what with the growth of the concept that the Force encompasses all - even those beyond Jedi senses i.e. Yuuzhan Vong... * Well, that does make the central problem the Jedi have with the Vong work, but my own view is if the Jedi thought for themselves they'd have solved the problem fairly easily: Yes, the Vong shouldn't be annihilated, neither should they be permitted to rampage. That is a quite amusing image. For some reason Jet Li is running around with a lightsaber for me. * Would you mess with him? It depends, doesn't it, on whether you view the Force as a deity with an agenda - like Kreia - or something with a natural flow and natural answers like Luke and so forth seem to have viewed it... * I think I'd be happier with the idea that the Force may supply answers but the individual has to correctly understand those answers and then apply them, otherwise does it not reduce the Jedi to willing automatons of the Force? JB -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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NewStaryknight Registered: Dec '07	Date Posted: 5/7 8:52pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	So uhhh, anybody got anymore ideas on what Luke should do with the Order post LOTF?
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