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Topic:
SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 8:54pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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NewStaryknight posted:
So uhhh, anybody got anymore ideas on what Luke should do with the Order post LOTF?
Just beat some bad guy anyx.
We need some more evil doers for him to kick the butts of.
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RK_Striker_JK_5
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:01pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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NewStaryknight posted:
So uhhh, anybody got anymore ideas on what Luke should do with the Order post LOTF?
At this point, wash his hands of it and walk away.
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:07pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
5/7 9:12pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ChildOfWinds
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Sinrebirth
That's not weak. Lomi Plo had one over Luke because she was utterly alien to him in her technique. Lumiya had her backside handed to her in Tempest, for all her surviving.
Lomi Plo seemed like she was able to Force manipulate Luke, and Luke shouldn't be weak-minded. This happened with Nyax as well. If Luke is so strong, there shouldn't be SO MANY who can fool him and defeat him. As for Lumiya, it didn't seem like she "...had her backside handed to her in Tempest." If anything, Luke was the one who literally ended up on his backside. He lost a hand and two lightsabers, and if he hadn't gotten a lucky shot off with a blaster that he happened to find as he fell to the floor, Luke would have been a dead man. 
CoW, no offense here, but then your Star Wars is darn boring. No matter the threat, Luke should walk into it and end it.
Sin, my problem is that it seems that no matter the threat, Luke walks into it and is defeated by it. It's only at the end that he finally manages to win. (sometimes) And when a series is 19 books long and it's not until the final book that Luke is finally allowed to defeat an enemy, that makes him look like one extremely weak and incompetent Jedi Master.
Throughout LotF, Luke has yet to win a decisive victory, except for the one time in which his win was morally wrong. So in eight books, Luke hasn't really accomplished anything. That's what bothers me. I wouldn't mind if Luke lost now and then, it's that he seems to lose or be wrong 95 percent of the time. I don't find *that* to be interesting or satisfying. You're right that Luke can't be successful all the time. The problem is that he is portrayed as unsuccessful MOST of the time.
As I said though, even MORE important to me than that Luke be victorious and successful more often than he's defeated or unsuccessful, is that Luke be portrayed as morally good ALL the time. I think there should be at least one character that you can always count on to do the right thing, even (especially) when the temptations are greatest. At this point in his life and career, the Jedi should be able to look up to Luke Skywalker as the Jedi ideal, as the model for what do to in a given situation, as the Jedi with the right answers. Instead, we're given a Luke Skywalker who kills for revenge. What a lousy example of what it means to be a Jedi!!! I simply DON'T like morally grey, bordering-on-dark, heroes. Luke shouldn't keep needing to have his moral compass recalibrated every book.
And the story won't last very long?
Are you saying that the story would be short if Luke was allowed to be powerful, successful, competent, wise, decisive, and morally good? If so, that would be fine with me! I like one book to three book stories. I think far too much of the NJO and LotF was filler, and in order to keep the heroes from winning too quickly, they had to be "dumbed down". I don't like seeing characters diminished to advance the plot.
It really simply sounds like you'd like Star Wars to end with Luke, CoW...
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but I do have a few things to say about future books.
In the first place, as I've said many times before, SW books don't always need to be about Galactic conflicts. I'd much rather see smaller adventure stories with Luke and Ben or other Jedi knights on missions throughout the galaxy, resolving conflicts and fighting smaller battles before they become galaxy-wide threats, or dealing with the Hundred terrible somethings in the Unknown regions.
But if Del Rey and the authors aren't willing to do that, then I would like Luke's era to close. Let him and the other OT characters have their "happily ever after" and live the rest of their lives in relative peace. Then they can jump ahead to the Legacy era or beyond and start their galaxy-wide conflicts again and have as many Sith Lords as they want. Before Luke, Leia, and Han are retired though, I DO want a few books which return Luke to genuine hero status, and to a morally correct character again. Before Luke fades into the background, I want him to leave a lasting impression of a competent, resourceful, respected Jedi and a morally upright hero.
If LotF is Luke's "Last Hurrah", so to speak, I believe he will be remembered as incompetent, indecisive, emotional, a poor leader and role model, with a skewed moral compass. Definitely NOT much of a Legacy. Which reminds me: I'm still trying to figure out why this series is called Legacy of the Force. The only legacy that I've seen throughout the eight books has been a DARK legacy, with Mara facing Jacen in rather a dark, angry assasin mode; Jacen going full-blown Sith; and Luke going dark when he killed Lumiya. Not exactly a very positive or happy story.
Even then, we have a very good characterisation of Luke through LotF - in my opinion, of course;
You and I will have to agree to disagree about this. I thought Luke was handled very poorly throughout the first eight books of this series, and I don't have much hope for the ninth.
Competence and decisive, and morally good and powerful. He practically kills Lumiya at Roquo Depot.
I think you and I must have read different books, Sin.  Lumiya nearly killed LUKE! He didn't even last very long with her before having his hand cut off and his two lightsabers lost. But she really got the last laugh on Luke when she got him to kill her for revenge.
I don't think Luke Skywalker will ever recover from that. I think he will now always be a morally tainted and emotionally damaged character, too afraid of the dark side to ever be effective anymore.
I'm struggling to understand whether your gripe is with Luke Skywalker not having a stationary characterisation,
My "gripe" is that Luke Skywalker has regressed a disturbing amount since Del Rey got the contract. He's no longer very heroic or morally good or effective or smart or decisive. I hate that he has been diminished so much. Just read the Invincible spoiler thread and see how many people are now blaming Luke for just about everything, and unfortunately, with reason, because of the poor way I feel the character of Luke Skywalker has been written.
I'm trying hard to understand, but Luke simply isn't God.
I don't expect or want Luke to be written as a "god". As you said, Luke is human. A few weaknesses and mistakes are fine. It's that Luke seems to be portrayed with more weaknesses than strengths and to be wrong more often than he's right that I don't like. I do want Luke to grow and develop and be written as a hero who does the morally right thing and who, even if it's an enormous struggle and he's bruised and battered in the process, is ultimately successful in his battles and goals *most* of the time. This IS fiction, after all. The heroes should win most of the time. It doesn't matter if the world is a dark place at the moment. We can watch the news to see all the darkness around. Star Wars should provide us with some hope for a better future. It doesn't have to reflect the darkness and pessimism of the real world. And I don't like moral relativism at all.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:09pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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I think you and I must have read different books, Sin. wink Lumiya nearly killed LUKE! He didn't even last very long with her before having his hand cut off and his two lightsabers lost. sad But she really got the last laugh on Luke when she got him to kill her for revenge.
I don't think Luke Skywalker will ever recover from that. I think he will now always be a morally tainted and emotionally damaged character, too afraid of the dark side to ever be effective anymore.
So why is Luke weak from killing Lumiya but Han isn't weak for killing Palpatine?
Your double standards annoy me.
Also, you treat Luke as a really weak character. I think you do, not the writers too.
Because I couldn't care less about what writers treat Luke as because the foremost source will always be the movies.
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
5/7 10:43pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
5/7 10:44pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ChildOfWinds
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Sorry, NewStaryknight , I missed your question before:
So uhhh, anybody got anymore ideas on what Luke should do with the Order post LOTF?
I think Luke should go back to what he had planned at the end of VotF. Have apprentices spend a short amount of time at an Academy to learn the basics; then have the apprentices paired with Masters and be a real presence in the galaxy, helping where needed; mediating disputes; fighting evil. The apprentices can receive on-the-job training.
And I think Luke should have the Order remain independent, protecting the citizens of the galaxy, and supporting the GA in a just cause, but remaining neutral and involved in mediating an agreement between two sides in questionable cases.
Charlemagne19
So why is Luke weak from killing Lumiya but Han isn't weak for killing Palpatine?
Do you mean morally weak? If so, it's because Luke specifically killed Lumiya for revenge because he thought she killed Mara. If I remember correctly, Han killed Palpatine because Palpatine was a danger to the galaxy and its citizens. It's the mindset that makes the difference for me.
Believe me, I DON'T like that Luke was written this way, and I don't think he should have been written this way. It annoys me that he was.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 10:49pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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Child of Winds
Do you mean morally weak? If so, it's because Luke specifically killed Lumiya for revenge because he thought she killed Mara. If I remember correctly, Han killed Palpatine because Palpatine was a danger to the galaxy and its citizens. It's the mindset that makes the difference for me.
Believe me, I DON'T like that Luke was written this way, and I don't think he should have been written this way. It annoys me that he was.
I don't see why Luke couldn't have killed Lumiya because she was a threat to the galaxy AND because she killed Luke's wife.
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Lord_Riven
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/8 2:34am
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
- Date Edited:
5/8 2:37am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_Riven
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I don't see why Luke couldn't have killed Lumiya because she was a threat to the galaxy AND because she killed Luke's wife.
I know, he could have but I think that KT chose to emphasize that Luke killed Lumiya out of misguided revenge rather than out of concern for the galaxy. And if we accept that I think it does taint Luke's victory substantially.
Sinrebirth posted:
The world is a dark place at the moment, and flights of fairy tales like the OT don't fly after 2000. The stories out there are nitty and dark and realistic. But the world is wondering through a dose of moral relativity at the moment, I'd guess.
And I guess that's my personal gripe. Why bother reading Star Wars when I could look out my office window and see a world go down the pathway to destruction? Why bother with Star Wars if I can look out my office window and see people get trampled over by the uncaring crowd etc...
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J_K_DART
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
5/8 11:45am
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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A few thoughts: as CoW says, the main reason presented in the text for Luke's killing of Lumiya was revenge. His own thoughts after the deed betray him. Previously, as Charles has said, Luke was hunting Lumiya down just because she was a threat to the galaxy; conversations with Mara earlier on in the series suggest Luke wasn't going to try and redeem her. But the follow-through wasn't for the right motivation.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/8 1:40pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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So KT sabotaged Luke yet again.
I have to say, getting through the first 3/4 of Sacrifice is a real chore. I'm re-reading it right now, and the last quarter really picks up the pace. The whole Fett/Mando thing could have been elsewhere. Not nearly enough Luke and the rest of the Jedi.
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Ayukawa
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/8 4:28pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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I want to thank ChildofWinds for the warm welcome to the forum. I know I seem to have come out of the blue and post deep into a topic.
It's kind of sad that I'm not able to fully comprehend everything people are talking about concerning Luke Skywalker in the Legacy of the Force series. But unless I want to read all of the NJO, DN and LoTF series, I will have to accept that I won't be able to understand it.
As for the moral relativism we seem to experience in our real world of late, it doesn't surprise me to see that it's affecting our literature and movies. Seems very similar to the entertainment that was loose during the early to late seventies. Right before Star Wars came out. *chuckles* I'm starting to think it's all cyclical.
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rebel_cheese
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
5/8 7:02pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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RK_Striker_JK_5 posted:
At this point, wash his hands of it and walk away.
And that would be the most out-of-character moment in Star Wars history.
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Padawan of princess_of_naboo E-married to the amazing padawanlost  Member of Charon_Force Beginning's End: http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28450077&brd=10477&replies=1
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:28pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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Charlemagne19
I don't see why Luke couldn't have killed Lumiya because she was a threat to the galaxy AND because she killed Luke's wife.
Unfortunately, as LR and Dart said, Traviss chose to emphasize that Luke killed Lumiya out of revenge because he thought she had killed Mara, rather than out of concern for the galaxy. It's his motivation which made his actions wrong. In the end, it became a victory for Lumiya rather than Luke, because she succeeded in having Luke commit a darkside act.
And yes, LR, I don't need Star Wars to make me depressed. Turning on the news or reading the papers can accomplish that. I originally liked SW because it was a hopeful an optimistic story. I liked the Bantam books because I didn't have to worry about Luke, Leia, and Han dying. I got to enjoy some good adventures with my favorite characters and there was still the dramatic tension of "How is Luke going to get out of THIS mess?"
Even more than dying, I don't like having to worry about whether or not Luke is going to go dark in the next book. That really shouldn't be. Even if Luke loses a fight, there should be no doubt that he isn't going to lose his moral integrity. Unfortunately, that's no longer the case, and I absolutely hate that!
Dawud786
I have to say, getting through the first 3/4 of Sacrifice is a real chore.
I really hated Sacrifice. As you said, there wasn't enough of Luke and the Jedi, but also, Luke's whole family did morally questionably things. Mara went after Jacen like an angry assassin and ended up dying because Jacen killed her in self-defense. Ben assassinated a chief of state; and Luke committed a darkside vengeance killing. Not a good book for the Skywalkers at all.
Ayukawa
It's kind of sad that I'm not able to fully comprehend everything people are talking about concerning Luke Skywalker in the Legacy of the Force series. But unless I want to read all of the NJO, DN and LoTF series, I will have to accept that I won't be able to understand it.
It's okay, Ayukawa! I've read all of it and I can't say that *I* understand what they've done to Luke Skywalker and the rest of his family or why either. I do know that there's been very, very little about the way that Luke has been portrayed since the start of the NJO that I've liked or agreed with.
And if the moral relativism is cyclical, then I hope we can move on to the next step in the cycle really, really soon. I'm not a fan of it at all.
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Darth_Foo
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
5/8 9:27pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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welcome Ayukawa
don't worry i didn't read NJO, DN and LoTF series either. out of curiosity i did read all about them on Wookie and various spoiler/review threads...just didn't get everything first hand 
non-the-less i'm glad i saved the $ tho.
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Frak the goram Vong! LoE trumps CW cartoon. it's referenced in Ep3 I-VI
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ChildOfWinds
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
5/9 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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Darth_Foo
out of curiosity i did read all about them on Wookie and various spoiler/review threads...just didn't get everything first hand non-the-less i'm glad i saved the $ tho.
I think you were smart to save the money. You might want to try the library though. I've found that my local library has pretty much all of the Star Wars books. That way, you can read the whole books, but you don't need to pay for them.
Here are some questions for all of you:
Which book do you think has the best Luke characterization of all? Why?
In which book do you like Luke's characterization the least? Why?
Which author do you think writes Luke best?
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rebel_cheese
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
5/9 9:32pm
Subject:
RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
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ChildOfWinds posted:
Here are some questions for all of you:
Which book do you think has the best Luke characterization of all? Why?
In which book do you like Luke's characterization the least? Why?
Which author do you think writes Luke best?
In what context? The entire Star Wars EU or just LOTF?
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