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Author	Topic: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/19 10:13pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Actually, for the SW universe, I equate happiness with being able to enjoy a fairly lengthy period of peace after spending most of one's life struggling and sacrificing to make the galaxy a better place, and leaving a stronger, more stable, peaceful galaxy to one's child/children, and grandchildren. Unfortunately, Luke doesn't seem to get either. Nor does he get to leave a lasting legacy of a flourishing Jedi Order. sad Please, Luke knows that Jedi exist for war. They exist to fight and battle evil wherever it goes. Star Wars is filled with evil and Luke's people are there to fight it. Your belief that Luke and company should magically be able to wish away all the evils of the world is unrealistic and boring. Even if Luke was able to get galactic peace, then they'd be fighting day to day hunting serial killers and psychopaths. Furthermore, you ignore that the retcon that human lifespans are only 100 years makes the 100 years of peace much more patable. You don't want to believe it though so you operate from faulty information. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Jedi Ben Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 5/20 10:50am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	ChildOfWinds posted: Jedi Ben : only to for him to be done over in turn by an older Jedi prophecy whose hands his defeat to Vader's children! What "older Jedi prophecy" are you referring to, JB? The one given by Bodo Baas. -----signature----- "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for even should we fail - should we fall - we will know that we have lived." Anomander Rake, Son of Darkness
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/20 11:04am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Yeah, but the Old Republic didn't need Luke to make a functioning galactic government. Nobody's asking that the galaxy be put in perfect order. But it should be at least be as stable as the Old Republic before Sidious started meddling.
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 5/20 11:12am Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Incidentally, Charles, we do disagree when you argue Jedi exist for war. They don't. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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ChildOfWinds Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 5/20 1:10pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Dawud786 COW, I think your gripes about Cade Skywalker are pretty petty and pointless. The bottom line is, I simply don't like Cade. I wouldn't like him if he wasn't Luke's descendant either. I find it rather sad though that Cade is all that Luke left behind and Cade's such a jerk. Luke has no other Legacy. After the mess that is LotF, Luke's personal life is terribly sad. And, because of Legacy, we already know that Luke and company didn't leave a lasting peace as a legacy. Since so many of the Jedi are killed in Legacy, his life's work was practically destroyed soon after his death too. Cade is all that is left of Luke as a legacy for him. So it bothers me that Cade was written as such a disappointing and annoying character. If there had been even ONE other descendant of Luke Skywalker that Luke could have been proud of, I wouldn't mind that Cade is an unlikeable, drug-addicted bounty hunter. Then maybe I even would think of him as somewhat fascinating. But since Cade is all that Luke has left as a Legacy, I'm not at all happy about his character. And, as you said, Cade could even get worse. He could choose to be an even more dangerous monster than Anakin Skywalker. What a horrible Legacy THAT would be for Luke! Luke started down the dark path in DE, but I think there's a difference between starting and actually falling. You and I seem to feel the same way about this. I don't feel that Luke ever fell in DE, but he was an idiot to decide to learn about the dark side. As you said, DE only took up a few weeks in-universe, and, as I said, Luke never really did any evil deeds during his time with the Emperor. He was an undercover agent who really helped the Alliance by sabotaging Imperial plans and missions. I agree though that the experiences in DE "scarred Luke emotionally". But I also think they made him less likely to fall again as he "knows how it can enter" and because he's now more cautious and more wary of it. It annoys me when authors keep portraying Luke as teetering on the edge of darkness. Luke, more than anyone should be able to control his emotions and fight off and avoid the dark side. He has learned through the Emperor's books and has experienced enough in his time on Byss, that he should be sort of an expert on the darkside and how to fight against it. more later...
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/20 1:11pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/20 1:13pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	J_K_DART posted: Incidentally, Charles, we do disagree when you argue Jedi exist for war. They don't. Who are you disagreeing with? Because I argue they exist to stop it. Child of Winds posted: The bottom line is, I simply don't like Cade. I wouldn't like him if he wasn't Luke's descendant either. I find it rather sad though that Cade is all that Luke left behind and Cade's such a jerk. Luke has no other Legacy. You know this isn't true, Marlene, so why do you repeatedly post it? It just wastes people's valuable time refuting it. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Rouge77 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 5/20 3:42pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	There are few other Jedi left too, and I think Gunn Yage is Kol's daughter, but an Imp space pilot isn't much of an extra legacy and the other Jedi don't seem to matter much without Cade. At this point Cade is the part of Luke's legacy that is the shatterpoint that will decide the future of the galaxy. Personally I don't like the future Legacy has created, but eventually Cade will become a better person and will carry on Luke's Legacy, as the plot demands it. That said, I will probably never like Cade. -----signature----- Recipient of the Confederation Ewok with "Rebel Yub"® Action!! Kill Ben Skywalker
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/20 3:47pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Luke Skywalker left the Galactic Alliance, the Jedi Knights, and a universe not enslaved by the Yuuzhan Vong. There's an active resistance against Darth Krayt (What does Windy think of Admiral Stazi and his crew?) plus a Jedi Knighthood that IS actively fighting against the Sith. It may take a thousand years without Krayt but eventually, the jedi WOULD overthrow him. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Emperor_Time Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 5/20 3:47pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	But I thought that Gunner Yage's father was Rulf Yage? -----signature----- Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/20 3:51pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/20 3:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Emperor_Time posted: But I thought that Gunner Yage's father was Rulf Yage? Rulf Yage raised Gunner but we don't know whether or not she was born at the same time as Cade or immediately after (my grandmother would call them Irish Twins but despite being Irish, never seemed to realize it was a derogatory term to her people). This is born up by the fact that Gunner seems about Cade's age. Frankly, even if Kol is the man who sired her, I consider Rulf her father. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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J_K_DART Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 5/20 4:13pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/20 4:15pm (1 edits total) Edited By: J_K_DART
	Here's the thing, Charles; if the Jedi exist to stop war, isn't it at least a trifle concerning that the instant Luke dies it's all back on again? Anyway! That being said, as promised here are my reflections on Legacy. I first of all have to admit that, at present, there is very little in the EU to hold my attention much. No longer is it the case that I come to Star Wars for something imaginative, something with twists and turns in it, something with style and excitement. I've not found SW to be all that satisfying for quite some time; probably since about the time Anakin Solo died, tbt. There have been occasional moments that have soared above the everyday; Luke battling his way through hordes of Yuuzhan Vong to face Shimrra is a scene I won't ever quite forget, methinks, because I consider that to be such a defining moment for his character as a hero. But, all in all, I've found my enthusiasm for the EU waning - as reflected by the diminished number of posts I'm making on the boards. And Legacy, quite frankly, is a breath of fresh air. It has two things that I like; firstly, it has imagination; secondly, it has style. I've now read the first arc, and to say I'm impressed is to understate the case. I'll highlight my interests, and then circle the points back to Luke. Firstly, the situation in Legacy is wonderfully portrayed. In a matter of a few lines, we get the strong sense that the entire Galaxy has simply become... darker. Krayt's Holocron message at the beginning of the arc does the trick; and then there's the wonderful throwaway comment at the end of his having a chance to end the Skywalker lineage once. These two minor touches create a sense that, if we're honest, the NR and the rise of the GFFA was an aberration. Palpatine was overthrown; but the Darkness has reclaimed the ground won by the Skywalkers. Symbolic of this is the attack on Ossus. By now, the Jedi know who their enemies are; their Temple on Coruscant has already been taken, and will become the heart of Krayt's power. In a frankly quite spectacular scene, Kol Skywalker dies - and dies as a beacon of Light, a servant of the Force, in a scene that is absolutely mind-gripping. The words 'well done' don't even begin to describe it. Note that it is not the overthrow of the Temple that changes everything for the Jedi; it is the battle of Ossus. The Jedi Temple is not the symbol that the Sith had to break in order to win against the Jedi. The Skywalker was. And now we come to the main Skywalker character: Cade himself. And there's a beauty in this character, as we can see, in that fateful battle on Ossus, every single element of the conversation is set up to break him. The first time he leaves Kol, he says "Yes, father." The second time, he says "Yes, master." In that subtle understated moment of dialogue we see Cade rejecting his birthright, his heritage, his very family. The Jedi way is to stand in the path of every enemy, in order to protect. The Jedi way is of self-sacrifice. But every act of self-sacrifice is, in the end, a sacrifice of a part of another person as well, and in dying for the Force, Kol causes devastating harm to Cade. In his father's death, Cade sees the Jedi way as futile, self-defeating. The galaxy has suddenly arisen against the Jedi, and now even a Skywalker cannot stand against the tide. Something in Cade is indeed 'broken'. He was a true Skywalker all the way at Ossus, unable to stand by, desiring to make a difference against all the odds, and that very Skywalker essence was burnt out of him. To say I like Cade's character is an understatement. He's a Skywalker dealing with a galaxy where Skywalkers really can't make a difference... Or so it seems, of course! The title 'Legacy' is perfect. The Skywalker can still make a difference in his time, he just has to come to the place of believing it again. This wonderful touch means this series is, more than anything else, a homage to what it means to be a Skywalker now - and, let's be honest, this is a role now defined mainly by the man who appears as a Force-ghost. Luke Skywalker. In respect of this, it's worth pointing out who appears as a Force-ghost - not Anakin Skywalker. Luke. Luke is the hero, the one whose legacy Cade will eventually step back into. Anakin's shadow is almost forgotten; it is Luke's beacon of light that Cade sees. I think Legacy has a chance, by the end of it, of being the most Luke-respecting piece of EU ever written. I like. -----signature----- "Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni." "I like my pizzas without pepperoni." "Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/20 4:23pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	JK_Dart posted: Here's the thing, Charles; if the Jedi exist to stop war, isn't it at least a trifle concerning that the instant Luke dies it's all back on again? Star Wars is a Pulp Universe. The Jedi Knights aren't nearly as original as people might think they are. George Lucas has privately let it loose to Mark Hamil that while he was initially inspired by Samurai Movies and Shaolin monks, George has also admitted that the idea of the Jedi Knights owe their origins to comic books/science fiction. In this case, Green Lantern Corps and Lensmen. The former being introduced in 1959. Heck, George Lucas' comic influences are rather noticible in that Mark Hamil pointed out Doctor Doom was an influence on Darth Vader and he initially mistook sketches of the later for the former. The Green Lantern Corps exists to attempt to bring peace and order to the 3,600 Sectors of the Universe (sound familiar?). Now, never are the Green Lantern Corps actually going to suceed in this mission but they exist to fight the good fight against Warmongers, Criminals, and Bad Guys. They're a combination of Police and Knight Errant. Luke Skywalker is the best of the Jedi Knighthood and the one everyone else fears. That doesn't mean the other Jedi aren't up to snuff but they'll never be Kyle Raynar if you catch my drift (I refuse to acknowledge Hal Jordan as the best Green Lantern). If the Jedi Knights DID however, sucessfully eradicate war, then they would CEASE TO BE JEDI KNIGHTS. They would just be Jedi. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/20 5:31pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	I think you're confusing fighting and war, Charles. The former is something Jedi are very good at, the latter is something they are terribly suited for. People have a bad habit of leaving for war as Jedi and coming home Sith Lords. Revan, Malak, Vader, Caedus, and Krayt are the biggest examples. Ventress, Depa Billaba, the Jedi of Jedi vs Sith, the Padawan Pack, Quinlan Vos, Alema Rar ... the psychological stresses and morally murky nature of full-scale war (real, honest-to-God, war - protracted, brutal, large-scale war) break Jedi. They couldn't handle the Mandalorian Wars, the New Sith Wars, the Clone Wars, the Vong War without, well, snapping. If there is a core social/political moral arc to the SW movies, it's that even a just war is an atrocity, and that ultimately even victory in battle prolongs the cycle of violence and darkness. Vader is basically the victim of war become the victimizer, and it's only when Luke renounced violence and opts instead to try to heal the ravaged man inside Vader's battle armor that the light side actually wins. Expect this point of view that's going to be reinforced heavily in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor. Mace Windu was 100% correct when he pointed out that the Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 5/20 5:40pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3) - Date Edited: 5/20 5:45pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	I think you're confusing fighting and war, Charles. The former is something Jedi are very good at, the latter is something they are terribly suited for. Actually, the implications are Jedi are magnificent at war. The Jedi won the Clone Wars, Darth Revan won the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi won the Sith Wars, Luke Skywalker won the Galactic Civil War, and then Luke/Jacen won the Yuuzhan Vong War. However, the Jedi exist to fight war. Take note, I'm saying not fight IN wars. They exist to FIGHT war. People have a bad habit of leaving for war as Jedi and coming home Sith Lords. Revan, Malak, Vader, Caedus, and Krayt are the biggest examples. Ventress, Depa Billaba, the Jedi of Jedi vs Sith, the Padawan Pack, Quinlan Vos, Alema Rar ... the psychological stresses and morally murky nature of full-scale war (real, honest-to-God, war - protracted, brutal, large-scale war) break Jedi. They couldn't handle the Mandalorian Wars, the New Sith Wars, the Clone Wars, the Vong War without, well, snapping. The opposite is the case. Shatterpoint shows that other people hate the Jedi and come to loathe them because they discover just how ugly and pointless their conflicts are when Jedi show that civilization DOESN'T NEED TO BE COMPROMISED in wartime. Mace Windu was 100% correct when he pointed out that the Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. And yet that is exactly what Luke excels at as does Obi Wan. -----signature----- Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Dawud786 Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/20 6:22pm Subject: RE: SOS: Save Our Skywalker, Luke Skywalker (v3)
	Charlemagne19 posted: If the Jedi Knights DID however, sucessfully eradicate war, then they would CEASE TO BE JEDI KNIGHTS. They would just be Jedi. Due to the nature of this being "Star WARS", of course, this can never happen until by some bizarre twist of fate someone at Lucasfilm decides to retire Star Wars. However, I have been thinking that it would be nice to see the Jedi Order(note, it's the Jedi Order not the Jedi Knighthood) which was founded initially as a meditative ascetic/philosophical/mystical order actually have a program to truly bring peace and justice to the galaxy. For millenia since they were dubbed "Jedi Knights" by beings on planets that were liberated by early Jedi from tyranny they've essentially fallen back behind the old lightsaber and contented themselves with being defined by that. Perhaps it is time for the New Jedi Order to discover early Jedi plans for actually effecting true heartfelt change in the galaxy. Spiritual and moral healing, not just them bouncing around the galaxy putting out fires and occassionally having to fight full scale wars against their own fallen members. I've never been a big Green Lantern reader, but correct me if I'm wrong... the Green Lantern Corps has never had a very spiritual side to them in the same way the Jedi Order does have they? So I think it is realistic to view the Jedi as a sort of police force(though I definitely think they shouldn't be tied to a particular government strictly) for the Force... they also need to have a plan or a program to essentially rehabilitate first and foremost, themselves, and then to guide the galactic populace to a sort of new "edenic consciousness" where they are in harmony with the Force as they were in some ancient past obscured in they mists of time. Luke Skywalker, after all, does believe that the dark side didn't come into being until sentient beings fell out of harmony with the Force. Or so he says in The Unifying Force. So I'd like to see him implement some means to do this. That would, of course, require that the Jedi become almost high priests of the Force as well as chivaliers. -----signature----- http://blogs.starwars.com/slaveoftheforce
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