| Author |
Topic:
Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
|
Date Posted:
4/9 4:47pm
Subject:
Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
- Date Edited:
4/9 5:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth-Ghost
|
I started rereading parts of Traitor, Destiny's Way, and The Unifying Force to try and understand Vergere better. She always spoke of how "Everything I tell you is a lie" or "Everything I tell you is the truth." She purposely mixed truth with lies, probably so her students came to their own conclusions and found themselves, or perhaps as a test. Here's what I've come to think.
Vergere
-had a very rational interpretation of the Jedi Code, based on reason and knowledge
-believed you could master your emotions through self-knowledge
-understanding the reasons behind your emotions would calm you, and keep away darkness
-then knowing the reasons for your emotions, you choose and act, using the reasons you had for your emotions in a logical way
-the mastery of emotions was through knowledge, not detachment or compassion, though she did sacrifice herself for Jacen in the end
-she believed in action, not reaction
-she believed in compromise, an ability most fanatics lack
-she agreed with Jacen that we have to approach the universe with love, despite all the pain and death, but sometimes forced to be a gardener
-a Dark Side in the Force exists, but as a result of life, sometimes even after life has moved or died
-the torture and slavery of Jacen was the only way, under the circumstances, he could find an understanding of the Yuuzhan Vong
-believed a complete surrender to the Force and your emotions revealed your true self
-intention doesn't always triumph over action, such as her example with the beast, and opinion of "Jedi slaughtering people being ok if they feel bad" being sick and wrong
-she did destroy Alpha Red, and didn't try to blame Luke or the Jedi
-she did not believe in the Potentium, which thinks there is no such thing as evil, period
Jacen, on the other hand, seemed to have been able to separate the truth from lies when he was first with her, but started misinterpreting her teachings in his memory years after she had died.
-he believed strength through the deliberate pain of sacrifice would keep passion in check and preserve selflessness
(contrast to Vergere say we should act with love and not be slaves to pain)
-to save the galaxy he has to fix the broken government by ruling it through force
(Vergere said we should surrender our desire to control events)
-corruption of the dark side is avoidable
(she warned him of the darkness to be found in his heart)
-life as a Jedi was purposeless and not his destiny
(she wanted him to be the living Jedi dream)
-a trait of the Sith is to survive
(Vergere sacrificed herself to save Jacen, after disoberying her to rescue Jaina, and she appeared as a ghost)
-sacrifice the few to save the many, he's overconfident and the master judge and gardener
(may be forced to be a gardener sometimes, just like a doctor, but should approach universe with love)
-the ends always justify the means, and morality is purely rational
(should always act logically, but in action not reaction)
-no darkside actions, only intentions matter
(already shown how Vergere thought actions mattered, usually more than intentions)
-sofheartedness equally as destructive as being power-hungry
(Vergere saved Mara, Ben, Jacen, and the whole race of Yuuzhan Vong. Jacen by sacrificing herself)
-darkside is really the true, unleashed power of the Force
(she never denies that living beings have a dark side, and that it is wrong)
-wants to control everything
(learned how to surrender the desire for control and become one with the Force at the end of NJO)
How Jacen took and corrupted Vergere's philosophy is clear, though she didn't help by confusing him and mixing truth with lies in the first place. Some lines may be drawn, such as Vergere teaching one must live with the pain yet continue to love VS Lumiya saying pain should be sought, and it can be seen how Vergere's very rationalistic interpretation of the Jedi Code may have helped Jacen on his rational path toward the dark side.
But somewhere along the way Jacen stopped acting and only reacted, stopped approaching the universe with love, stopped trying to accept the universe and started to desire to control it, forgot how Vergere said a Jedi being able to kill as many as he can just because he is calm is both morally wrong and very sick, stopped compromising and became a fanatic, let his pain enslave him, abandoned reason and let his emotions master him.
Conclusion: Vergere's teachings definitely oppose the philosophy and attitude of Darth Caedus
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ixoyefreak
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 4:58pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
- Date Edited:
4/9 5:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ixoyefreak
|
|
Very good points. I was thinking the same thing, i just never got to putting my thoughts down. I congradulate you. Jacen did seem to start mixing them up and going the wrong ways with them after Lumyia got a hold of him. Maybe before. But i wish he would go back to her original teachings.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
RushinSundaws
Registered:
Feb '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 5:17pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
|
Fascinating, truly fascinating, I may have to change my opinions of Vergere being a Sith. I'll admit it's entirely possible she did attempt to become a Sith but decided they were wrong and turned on Palpatine and later deceived Lumiya and Krayt hoping to end their attempts to bring the Sith back into prominence before they could achieve their goals...if only Caedus hadn't mucked things up.
-----signature-----
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is The Force.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
|
Date Posted:
4/9 5:25pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
Vergere was a Jedi and Sith heretic. She believed the Sith way could be used without becoming evil and tried to kill Palpatine for his evil deeds. Just because she studied under Sidious and made use of the Sith way doesn't mean that she was trying to become a Dark Lord of Evil.
-----signature-----
Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
|
Date Posted:
4/9 5:49pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
RushinSundaws posted:
Fascinating, truly fascinating, I may have to change my opinions of Vergere being a Sith. I'll admit it's entirely possible she did attempt to become a Sith but decided they were wrong and turned on Palpatine and later deceived Lumiya and Krayt hoping to end their attempts to bring the Sith back into prominence before they could achieve their goals...if only Caedus hadn't mucked things up.
I still contend Vergere wasn't saying diddly-squat about Sith to Krayt...except that the Sith were wrong...
-----signature-----
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
RushinSundaws
Registered:
Feb '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 5:53pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
BobaMatt posted:
RushinSundaws posted:
Fascinating, truly fascinating, I may have to change my opinions of Vergere being a Sith. I'll admit it's entirely possible she did attempt to become a Sith but decided they were wrong and turned on Palpatine and later deceived Lumiya and Krayt hoping to end their attempts to bring the Sith back into prominence before they could achieve their goals...if only Caedus hadn't mucked things up.
I still contend Vergere wasn't saying diddly-squat about Sith to Krayt...except that the Sith were wrong...
That's what I was kind of implying...I think she was trying to convert him to Lumiya's philosophy to reveal the presence of the Sith to the NJO long before they were ready.
-----signature-----
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is The Force.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
|
Date Posted:
4/9 6:13pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
|
No. I think she was trying convert him to her philosophy and failed.
-----signature-----
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ixoyefreak
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 7:05pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
BobaMatt posted:
No. I think she was trying convert him to her philosophy and failed.
NO, i think it might be half and half  I don't think she was trying to reveal the sith. Just convert him into what she wanted jacen to be also.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
|
Date Posted:
4/9 7:08pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
|
That's what I said.
-----signature-----
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ixoyefreak
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 7:13pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
|
haha, i know, i was just being stupid.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
|
Date Posted:
4/9 7:20pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
|
Heh. My thoughts on the whole thing are in the NRW thread.
-----signature-----
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
JediAlly
Registered:
Oct '00
|
Date Posted:
4/9 8:52pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
I like the way you presented the main points of Vergere's belief. Like I said before about her conversations with Luke, they made too much sense to be easily dismissed. I wasn't say she was right or wrong, or that she was Jedi or Sith. Just saying she made too much sense to be brushed aside.
As for her saying she was neither Jedi nor Sith, I don't know the whole deal about her and Sidious, so I won't get into that. I do believe she was somehow aware of the possibility that the Sith existed. Right now, the how is irrelevant. Anyway, she learned about Sith history and philosophy. I believe that the more she learned about them, the more she realized that the Republic and the Jedi, as they were, wouldn't be able to win against them. But if they followed the Sith philosophy and did things the way a Sith would, the Jedi would win against the Vong, but now you'd have an army of Sith. So she might have developed her own philosophy, which would merge the Jedi and Sith philosophies in a way that a Jedi armed with this philosophy would defeat the Vong and not turn to the dark side. Now it would seem that this was what happened with Jacen, and her plan worked insofar as winning against the Vong.
As for the aftermath, I think the main flaw was the state Jacen was in entering the war - always questioning the Force and his role. Then it would seem that he got his head straightened out in Traitor. Then he was encouraged by Luke to continue his questions and then he started getting the visions. You have the Dark Nest crisis, and...
Well, I agree that he had become arrogant, believing his way was the correct way. That was about the one thing that remained constant throughout the NJO. The only thing that changed was the nature of his way. Now in one sense, his way was correct in that it was his way of viewing and using the Force, which was encouraged by Vergere, which allowed him to defeat Onimi and end the war.
From the way he was acting at the beginning, I'd say Jacen took a lot after her mother in that he preferred negotiation and limited use of the Force over the direct approach Anakin and Jaina took. Vergere took the "negotiator" and more or less forced him to become a "warrior".
I also believe that it was how others acted in the war that led to his disillusionment towards others. Here are the specifics: no unity amongst the Jedi and New Republic; the shenanigans of politicians like Borsk and Viqi; his uncle fear that acting directing against the Vong, coupled with their absence in the Force, would lead them to the dark side; his uncle not taking action to safeguard the Academy by evacuating it when it was obvious that it was in the path of the Yuuzhan Vong conquest and would be a prime target; his mother not realizing until Duro that the only negotiations the Yuuzhan Vongs would honor would be ones where they dictated all the terms; and basically the whole galaxy not realizing until the very end that the New Republic wasn't worth fighting for anymore.
Since the end of the war, he hasn't seen much effort made into rectifying these underlying problems. And since he kept seeing the visions, he decided to act and take charge. He could have talked to Luke, but I don't believe he trusts his uncle's judgment anymore because of his lack of action during the first half of the Yuuzhan Vong war, and then sending a bunch of inexperienced and half-trained Jedi into the lion's den, when a group of Masters might have had better luck.
-----signature-----
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 9:27pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
One interesting point I stumbled on while rereading SbS that I don't think anyone else has brought up: there's a scene where Tsavong Lah and Vergere are talking in the middle of a religious ceremony. The priest is killing a prisoner, cutting out his guts. Vergere looks at him, and suddenly the sacrifice is at peace, calm, doesn't appear to be feeling any pain. It's clear in retrospect that she used the Force to soothe his pain and put him at peace as he died. Now, if she were a Sith just out to corrupt Jacen, why would she do this? There's no one around to see her do it, no one she could impress by doing it. No one ever knows. She gets no benefit by it. It's a purely selfless action, done to help another sentient for no reward.
I really wish people would read the books sometime before buying into "Vergere is a Sith!" arguments.
-----signature-----
"Have you not yet learned, Executor, that everything I tell you is the truth?" - Vergere
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Carnage04
Registered:
Mar '05
|
Date Posted:
4/9 10:07pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
Havac posted:
I really wish people would read the books sometime before buying into "Vergere is a Sith!" arguments.
Do you mean the books where other Sith Lords talk about her being a Sith?  Or are you saying the other authors should read the books sometimes before writing the "Vergere is a Sith" retcon.
Seriously though, the entire idea doesn't sit well with me. In light of her actions in the NJO series the entire idea makes absolutely no sense (Nice pickup on the sacrifice, by the way).
The problem for me is Legacy 18. When Lumiya told Jacen that Vergere was a Sith it was easy to blow the statement off as deception because Lumiya had a great deal to gain by telling Jacen such a thing. Darth Krayt has no reason to lie to Cade about Vergere. At this point it seems that "Vergere = Sith" is fact and the burden of proof is put on those who want to think "Vergere is not a Sith".
The best explanation I can come up with is that Hett wasn't really in any shape to know what the heck Vergere was talking about and the flashback we see is only based on how Hett remembered things...which is not anywhere close to the truth.
-----signature-----
Carnage
I Finally decided to use a signature after 3500 posts!
3500 posts * 7 Characters = 24500 keystrokes wasted
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
|
Date Posted:
4/9 10:27pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
- Date Edited:
4/9 10:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
|
Carnage04 posted:
Do you mean the books where other Sith Lords talk about her being a Sith? Or are you saying the other authors should read the books sometimes before writing the "Vergere is a Sith" retcon.
Seriously though, the entire idea doesn't sit well with me. In light of her actions in the NJO series the entire idea makes absolutely no sense (Nice pickup on the sacrifice, by the way).
No offense but the books don't claim Vergere *IS* a Sith.
They claim she studied under a Sith.
-----signature-----
Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Grey1
Registered:
Nov '00
|
Date Posted:
4/10 6:17am
Subject:
RE: Vergere: separating the truth from the lies
|
Darth-Ghost posted:
I started rereading parts of Traitor, Destiny's Way, and The Unifying Force to try and understand Vergere better.
I did the same thing... I read Traitor again last fall, and I still really love this book. A few weeks ago, I had some time to flip through my bookshelf, and I ended up reading passages from DW and TUF...
To make it short, I totally agree with you analysis.
Darth-Ghost posted:
-the ends always justify the means, and morality is purely rational
(should always act logically, but in action not reaction)
This I actually see a bit more straightforward: Both NJO and LOTF tell us how the ends never justify the means. Both series use Jacen as the central character to demonstrate this. In NJO, Jacen first struggles to find the means to reach the ends (denying the Force in the process), then after Vergere he knows that he can do stuff, but he can't embrace the darkness - performing genocide with Alpha Red, or making a living planet turn violent. In LOTF, his character is all about doing no matter what in order to reach the goal of everlasting peace.
So, Vergere's lesson is that the ends never justify the means, and it gets driven home when she destroys Alpha Red. Which is what contrasts her view from the proactive Jedi like Kyp, who blew up civilian world ships in "totally logical action".
Now I was thinking, isn't it end over means when she teaches Jacen through torture? The answer is - she couldn't have changed his fate when he was in the hands of the Vong. She could only help him to use what happened to him in the best possible way. Let's presume that Jacen wouldn't have gotten away if Vergere had really freed him - he would have died on the run. And if Vergere had not helped Jacen understand the Embrace of Pain, he would still have been tortured, only he wouldn't have made it through.
Darth-Ghost posted:
-a Dark Side in the Force exists, but as a result of life, sometimes even after life has moved or died
The whole "there is no dark side" argument never struck me as anything but semantics. Of course there is what is called the Dark Side - but what is it? So Vergere strips Jacen of the phrase, even of language, so that he has to find his own answer to what is darkness and what is not. And even when there is a dark Side, it's still only part of the Force, and the Force is one. And that's no novel thought at all, as some earth religions might attest.
"Using the dark side" is still using the Force - but using it in certain ways. "Abusing the Force".
JediAlly posted:
From the way he was acting at the beginning, I'd say Jacen took a lot after her mother in that he preferred negotiation and limited use of the Force over the direct approach Anakin and Jaina took. Vergere took the "negotiator" and more or less forced him to become a "warrior".
Isn't there a part in one of the books where Jacen muses that he isn't a warrior...? He also rejects being a teacher in the end, because he doesn't want people to look up to him. People have suggested that he would have made a good Jedi Consular in KOTOR terms. At the end of NJO, I think he had the potential to become a sage/hermit type character. The one who ponders the life force without running around with a glowing stick. A possible story could then have brought him back when the galaxy needed the additional glowing stick, like when Yoda finally goes up against the Sith.
I'd also like to point out that at the knighting ceremony, Luke encourages Jacen to "never stop asking questions", and that he observes his nephew not having lost his goodness in spite of everything that had happened to him. I know, Luke could be wrong, but hey, Luke can't be wrong!
JediAlly posted:
Since the end of the war, he hasn't seen much effort made into rectifying these underlying problems. And since he kept seeing the visions, he decided to act and take charge.
At the beginning of LOTF, I had this theory that Jacen has two destinies thanks to the Will of the Force. The first was solving the Vong conflict. The second was to become the proving ground for the next hero, Ben, and for the galaxy at large. In order to move him into this position, the Force feeds him with visons of how everything goes down the drain if he doesn't act in a certain way. And I think many people haven't accepted the validity of these visions, simply titling Jacen arrogant because he believes that what the Force feeds him is correct. And the best part is, in a cyclical open end universe like SW, Ben's trial will only bring him to the point where something will result in Kol's trial, and then Cade's trial as seen in Legacy.
I didn't like this turn of events, however... I'd been more happy with wise Jacen.
Oh boy, why do I always get carried away while writing posts?
-----signature-----
Jacen had learned that one can meet the Universe [...] with fear, or with hatred, or with despair.
Or one can choose to meet it with love.
Jacen had chosen.
But still, he was astonished to discover that the Universe could love him back.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
