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Topic:
NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/13 1:19pm
Subject:
NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 1:31pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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"The Darth title was more than just a symbol of power; it was a claim of supremacy. It was used by those Dark Lords who have sought to enforce their will on the other Masters. It was a challenge—a warning to bow down or be destroyed." - Kas'im
"Someone here once told me that the Darth title was no longer used because it promoted rivalry among the Sith. It gave the Jedi an easy target. It was easier just to abandon the custom. To have all the Sith Masters use the same title of Dark Lord. But I know the truth, Qordis. I know why none of you claims the that name for yourself. Fear. You're cowards. None of the Brotherhood is worthy of the Darth title. Least of all you." - Darth Bane
Okay, ladies and gents, Uli and I have been derailing the NRW thread with this, but it's actually a discussion between the two of us that's gone back a long, long way and spanned at least two other threads. As such, I thought maybe we should respect the other discussions going on there and create a whole new thread to discuss the origins and the true meaning of what it means to claim the title of Darth amongst the Sith. I suggest taking a look at the link before contributing. I've moved my last response to Uli here.
Ulicus posted:
If he hasn't ever been trained by a Darth, how can he be?
I refer you back to Kas'im's quote, and Bane's ascent. The title is something that can be claimed.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
I like that explanation, though I still don't believe in Krayt's ignorance. Rather, I like that he's claiming supremacy with his new philosophy and the other Darths aren't having it.
Yet it would appear that Krayt believes in his ignorance, else he wouldn't be going to the holocrons for knowledge.
Careful, careful. He goes to a few very specific Sith to try and find some very specific knowledge. Knowledge that may in fact be tied to the Darths' connection to the Rakata...
Ulicus posted:
Ultimately our differences are rooted in my belief that the "Darth Tradition" is the "philosophical baggage" and ethos and that the "true authority/supremecy" is a byproduct of that, rather than the source.
Here's what I think happened: as Kas'im states, it is a title that can be claimed - eventually, the claimants of the title become a sect of their own, acquiring philosophy and ethos naturally as time went on. From time to time they'd go extinct but their wisdom on how to be completely badass lived on, so that other people who claim the title or are inducted into it by others who have claimed the title can maintain their hold on supremacy through the wisdom of other completely badass Darths. What Krayt's done is gone way old school and claimed the title for himself, choosing to eschew the wisdom of the Darths before him.
Ulicus posted:
I'd contest that he's like a methodist who has never been educated in Catholicism and knows very little about it crowning himself Pontifex Maximus.
Notwithstanding, if he's Pope, and no one's around to disagree except the ghosts of old Popes, he wins and is allowed to define what Catholicism is.
Ulicus posted:
I've also got a silly desire to see the ink of Sith tatoos retconned as Sith poison.
Yeah, dude, no way it's regular ink. It's evil ink.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Unfortunately, they're ignorant of a lot of actual Sith teachings, no? They're crowned by the waaaaay ancient Sith.
Well, I think they're ignorant of the Darth teachings/traditions, certainly. I think they've very well versed in the general Sith teachings, especially those that were circulating around the "Golden Age of the Sith". (Though that's a misnomer if I ever heard one)
Yeah, all I really meant was that if they'd known about the Darths, they'd have made themselves Darths.
Ulicus posted:
Maybe that's the correct way to look at it, but I still prefer to think that badassery was a result of the specific Darth philosophy and ethos.
I think it fed itself in a cycle. The most badass Sith were able to hold on to their title and so were able to teach later Darths the secrets of being totally badass. What Krayt's done is said, "I'm badass, too, but I don't like your teachings, so I don't even particularly want to learn them."
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
I do anticipate a scene where Nihl goes to talk to those holocrons, though, and they embrace him.
As do I.
And it is going to be AWESOME. 
Awesome speculation dance party!
ARC-77 posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Ulicus posted:
If he hasn't ever been trained by a Darth, how can he be?
I refer you back to Kas'im's quote, and Bane's ascent. The title is something that can be claimed.
Technically, Bane was trained by a Darth in the form of Revan's holocron. He may have claimed the title in ignorance, but he spent enough time with the holocron that he could have learned the significance.
So then perhaps Kas'im's quote is more fitting. Notwithstanding, Bane claimed it and then chose to train under a former Darth to find out how to be more like him. Krayt, instead, claimed the title and then chose to change things.
It's probably worth noting, too, that Bane would likely be pissed at Palpatine, too for playing fast and loose with his Rule.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/13 1:20pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 1:29pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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BobaMatt posted:
I refer you back to Kas'im's quote, and Bane's ascent. The title is something that can be claimed.
So they think, anyway. 
(And, as Arc pointed out too, I think Bane only becomes a true Darth after his instruction from Revan)
BobaMatt posted:
Careful, careful. He goes to a few very specific Sith to try and find some very specific knowledge.
All of whom are Darths, and all of whom refer to him as a heretic or pretender*, which suggests that they've never given him any knowledge ever - especially since A'Sharad had that thing in his bonnet about reforming the Sith from well before he (assumedly) found those holocrons.
*Well, okay, Nihilus might have said: "Okay", but that's not the impression we're given.
BobaMatt posted:
Here's what I think happened: as Kas'im states, it is a title that can be claimed - eventually, the claimants of the title become a sect of their own, acquiring philosophy and ethos naturally as time went on. From time to time they'd go extinct but their wisdom on how to be completely badass lived on, so that other people who claim the title or are inducted into it by others who have claimed the title can maintain their hold on supremacy through the wisdom of other completely badass Darths. What Krayt's done is gone way old school and claimed the title for himself, choosing to eschew the wisdom of the Darths before him.
That's... not a bad take, all things considered.
I still prefer to think that the first Darth was a guy who developed a very specific creed and philosophy that every other Darth followed. Certainly, they had their own spin on things, but the core principles remained the same. This led to their becoming badasses and led to those outside the Darth tradition looking at them and coming to the conclusion Kas'im came to.
Why are we taking the word of a man who believes wholeheartedly in Kaan's brotherhood and is a non-Darth as truth?
BobaMatt posted:
Notwithstanding, if he's Pope, and no one's around to disagree except the ghosts of old Popes, he wins and is allowed to define what Catholicism is.
If he's Pope... which he's not.
He's... the Archbishop of Korriban calling himself the Pope. And yes, I know I've changed him from a methodist to an Anglican, but I'm allowed goshdarnit!
BobaMatt posted:
Yeah, all I really meant was that if they'd known about the Darths, they'd have made themselves Darths.
Quite probably.
Hell, I wouldn't mind if we found out they had done in Secret. (Though explaining why they kept it secret might be a problem)
BobaMatt posted:
I think it fed itself in a cycle. The most badass Sith were able to hold on to their title and so were able to teach later Darths the secrets of being totally badass. What Krayt's done is said, "I'm badass, too, but I don't like your teachings, so I don't even particularly want to learn them."
Well, I think we're just going to have to disagree there.
I'm anticipating Nihl, post-holocrons, or some hidden Banite Sith to show up and say: "How DARE you claim the title of Darth in your ignorance!?" and smack him around a bit. Probably Nihl.
He killed Kol, so it stands to reason that he's going to be the Ultimate Cade Nemesis above and beyond Krayt.
BobaMatt posted:
Awesome speculation dance party!
I'm bringing Bloodsoup and Sith Dip!
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/13 1:30pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 1:50pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
I refer you back to Kas'im's quote, and Bane's ascent. The title is something that can be claimed.
So they think, anyway.
Well, if Kas'im's worth his salt as a historian, he's probably working from history.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Careful, careful. He goes to a few very specific Sith to try and find some very specific knowledge.
All of whom are Darths, and all of whom refer to him as a heretic or pretender*, which suggests that they've never given him any knowledge ever - especially since A'Sharad had that thing in his bonnet about reforming the Sith from well before he (assumedly) found those holocrons.
Oh, you're absolutely right. All I was doing was disagreeing with you that Krayt considers himself ignorant. He only goes to these guys because he needs something specific from them, not because he gives a damn about their opinion about how the Sith should be run or about his own legitimacy. It only turns into a philosophical discussion because of their reasons for refusing to help him.
And, as one of the possible interpretations of the Rakata origins of the word "Darth" is that it stems from the Darths' desire to "conquer death," then it's not surprising he'd turn to Darths for his particular problem.
Ulicus posted:
That's... not a bad take, all things considered.
Why thank you. I based it on my cursory knowledge of religious cults and sects and how they tend to splinter.
Ulicus posted:
I still prefer to think that the first Darth was a guy who developed a very specific creed and philosophy that every other Darth followed. Certainly, they had their own spin on things, but the core principles remained the same. This led to their becoming badasses and led to those outside the Darth tradition looking at them and coming to the conclusion Kas'im came to.
Also not a bad take. There's not enough concrete information to properly evaluate the Kas'im quote, I guess. I'm just taking him at his word.
Ulicus posted:
Why are we taking the word of a man who believes wholeheartedly in Kaan's brotherhood and is a non-Darth as truth?
Because although he believes in Kaan's brotherhood, he says nothing disparaging of the Darths. In fact, he seems to respect their power.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Notwithstanding, if he's Pope, and no one's around to disagree except the ghosts of old Popes, he wins and is allowed to define what Catholicism is.
If he's Pope... which he's not.
But that's exactly my point: so long as no one's disagreeing, and the congregants all agree, he is, for all intents and purposes, Pope. He may not be their kind of Pope, or he may not be truly Catholic, but...well...he's de facto Pope. To extend your analogy to the Church of England, imagine if Henry VIII, instead of seceding from the Church, instead conquered the Vatican and declared himself Pope.
Ulicus posted:
Well, I think we're just going to have to disagree there.
I'm anticipating Nihl, post-holocrons, or some hidden Banite Sith to show up and say: "How DARE you claim the title of Darth in your ignorance!" and smack him around a bit. Probably Nihl.
And that's just going to be a fundamental disagreement so long as we disagree about how to interpret Kas'im's quote.
::shrug::
Ulicus posted:
I'm bringing Bloodsoup and Sith Dip!
Great! I've got skewered puppies on the grill. Help yourself to some of the candy in that bowl - I stole it from babies.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/13 1:59pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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BobaMatt posted:
Well, if Kas'im's worth his salt as a historian, he's probably working from history.
Still an outsider looking in through a muddy window, though, no?
BobaMatt posted:
Oh, you're absolutely right. All I was doing was disagreeing with you that Krayt considers himself ignorant.
Oh, right. Oops.
BobaMatt posted:
Also not a bad take. There's not enough concrete information to properly evaluate the Kas'im quote, I guess. I'm just taking him at his word.
Which is fair enough.
Since this started in the NRW thread, I'm trying to get my interpretion in. If the only thing barring such an interpretation is an in-universe explanation from a guy who could, concievably, not really know the ins and outs, I'm gonna take the opening.
BobaMatt posted:
Because although he believes in Kaan's brotherhood, he says nothing disparaging of the Darths. In fact, he seems to respect their power.
Though I doubt this necessarily means he understand exactly what is going on. He's correctly identified a trend amongst the Darths, certainly, but I don't think it means that he has pinned down what makes them Darths, exactly. Even if he thinks he has.
BobaMatt posted:
But that's exactly my point: so long as no one's disagreeing, and the congregants all agree, he is, for all intents and purposes, Pope. He may not be their kind of Pope, or he may not be truly Catholic, but...well...he's de facto Pope.
But the previous Darths are disagreeing. If the Catholics could actually communicate with their deceased Popes, I think their opinion on what was and wasn't Catholic would be considered.
Similarly, if the majority of Krayt's Sith knew that their leader was referred to as pretender by the previous Darths, I don't think his position would be as secure.
I don't know, I just like thinking that "Darth Tradition = Secret Knowledge" and that it's knowledge Krayt has yet to aquire, considering the whole "We don't like you and we don't want to train you", issue.
BobaMatt posted:
To extend your analogy to the Church of England, imagine if Henry VIII, instead of seceding from the Church, instead conquered the Vatican and declared himself Pope.
Why couldn't that have actually happened? 
BobaMatt posted:
And that's just going to be a fundamental disagreement so long as we disagree about how to interpret Kas'im's quote.
::shrug::
Agreed. Lol.
BobaMatt posted:
Great! I've got skewered puppies on the grill. Help yourself to some of the candy in that bowl - I stole it from babies.
Stolen candy is the best candy!
Oh! And you even provided the Ziostberry Juice! 
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
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Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/13 2:11pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 2:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Well, if Kas'im's worth his salt as a historian, he's probably working from history.
Still an outsider looking in through a muddy window, though, no?
Possibly. That really depends on whether he's right or not. If he's wrong, then yes. If he's right, then he may not be a Darth but it's true that it at least began as a claim that you are a rule. Or, more likely, it began as a title given to supreme-o Sith, and then later claimants to the title were saying that they were supreme-o so long as they could defend their claim.
Perhaps this is a good time to bring in Luke's impressions of Sith "teachings"...
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Also not a bad take. There's not enough concrete information to properly evaluate the Kas'im quote, I guess. I'm just taking him at his word.
Which is fair enough.
Since this started in the NRW thread, I'm trying to get my interpretion in. If the only thing barring such an interpretation is an in-universe explanation from a guy who could, concievably, not really know the ins and outs, I'm gonna take the opening.
Which is also fair enough.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Because although he believes in Kaan's brotherhood, he says nothing disparaging of the Darths. In fact, he seems to respect their power.
Though I doubt this necessarily means he understand exactly what is going on. He's correctly identified a trend amongst the Darths, certainly, but I don't think it means that he has pinned down what makes them Darths, exactly. Even if he thinks he has.
I, too, would tend to believe he doesn't really know what goes on behind closed doors, but I doubt it's so muddy that he can't say, "Every once in a while, a guy calls himself Darth because he thinks he's the shiznit and either beats back everyone who tries to challenge him...or dies."
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
But that's exactly my point: so long as no one's disagreeing, and the congregants all agree, he is, for all intents and purposes, Pope. He may not be their kind of Pope, or he may not be truly Catholic, but...well...he's de facto Pope.
But the previous Darths are disagreeing. If the Catholics could actually communicate with their deceased Popes, I think their opinion on what was and wasn't Catholic would be considered.
But the previous Darths are impotent, right now, and none of the other extant Sith seem to dispute Krayt's authenticity, so for all intents and purposes...he's Darth. You're right that Catholics would care what the Pope-Ghosts had to say. I was throwing out a hypothetical where they didn't...just like the current Sith don't seem to question Krayt's claim.
Ulicus posted:
Similarly, if the majority of Krayt's Sith knew that their leader was referred to as pretender by the previous Darths, I don't think his position would be as secure.
This is true. But that doesn't mean he can't rightfully claim the title, just that the other ones think he's stupid for doing so.
Ulicus posted:
I don't know, I just like thinking that "Darth Tradition = Secret Knowledge" and that it's knowledge Krayt has yet to aquire, considering the whole "We don't like you and we don't want to train you", issue.
I agree there's a heritage and a secret knowledge, I just don't think it's necessarily wrong that Krayt can claim the title and start his own tradition. To me the Sith have always appeared to be a culture of What I Say Goes Until Someone Can Kill Me.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
To extend your analogy to the Church of England, imagine if Henry VIII, instead of seceding from the Church, instead conquered the Vatican and declared himself Pope.
Why couldn't that have actually happened?
Heh.
Anyway, my point is that so long as everyone respected Henry's new authority as Pope, all his reforms would become Catholicism.
Ulicus posted:
Oh! And you even provided the Ziostberry Juice!
And I've got Kiara marinading in the fridge. Ben brought her.
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Darth_Carl99
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
4/13 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 2:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_Carl99
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BobaMatt posted:
...I just don't think it's necessarily wrong that Krayt can claim the title and start his own tradition.
More or less my view here. It doesn’t matter if Krayt deserves to be a Sith by any old slandered. He's the almighty one, he gets to define what makes someone a Darth, no one else can, because no one else has the power to do so any longer, they might have had once upon a time. But their time is past and their power broken. Such is the way of the Sith.
BobaMatt posted:
And I've got Kiara marinading in the fridge. Ben brought her.
Hope you thought to bring some Twilek Slave girls, we need something to eat all this off. Ohh, and here's some cutlery for you, and here's some hunks of meat from Leia's corpse for you, cut them myself with my very own blade  . Just hope her daughter doesn’t track us down, she has an annoying habit of being very painful for any would be Darth’s. That fool Krayt would be dead in 5 seconds flat if she was still around in that time. Ahh for the good old days when we could slaughter and pillage without Jedi interference.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
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Date Posted:
4/13 3:13pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 3:19pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Darth_Carl99 posted:
BobaMatt posted:
...I just don't think it's necessarily wrong that Krayt can claim the title and start his own tradition.
More or less my view here. It doesn’t matter if Krayt deserves to be a Sith by any old slandered. He's the almighty one, he gets to define what makes someone a Darth, no one else can, because no one else has the power to do so any longer, they might have had once upon a time. But their time is past and their power broken. Such is the way of the Sith.
And that's basically the way I see it always having worked. The thing is, successful Darths were always the ones that realized the futility of trying to deny what they really were, and instead embraced the treachery and lust for power inherent to their Order. Successful Darths were then able to pass that wisdom on. Unsuccessful Darths were destroyed. I think the reason for my thinking in this way has to do with the utter practicality of this particular point of the ehtos - it's not spiritual or esoteric, it's merely a lesson in maintaining power. Thus, I don't see it as wrong that Krayt can be a Darth as long as he can manage to not be killed, it's just that the others are bound to see him as a pretender because he's denying something that they believe in with the certainty of truth; he's not worthy of the Darth title because he's not willing to do what it takes to keep it. It probably also has to do with his willingness to bestow the title on all comers, which is a perversion of the titles' significance.
I'm posting an awful lot today because...I don't want to start my homework. I tried to wait for someone else to respond, but...well, procrastination waits for no man. Which is ironic.
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Carnage04
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
4/13 3:45pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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I'll chime in with some deeper thoughts later on but first...a quick question.
In Krayt's new Sith....do the Apprentices use names or are they simply "Apprentice"? In Legacy #2 Talon isn't called by any name until she is given the title of Darth Talon by Krayt himself. Are we to assume that she is a special case because she is bound to become one of Krayt's hands or do all Sith get "Inducted" and named by Darth Krayt?
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/13 3:47pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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BobaMatt posted:
Possibly. That really depends on whether he's right or not. If he's wrong, then yes. If he's right, then he may not be a Darth but it's true that it at least began as a claim that you are a rule.
I think it's yes either way. If he's wrong, yes. If he's right, then his assumption was correct.
BobaMatt posted:
I, too, would tend to believe he doesn't really know what goes on behind closed doors, but I doubt it's so muddy that he can't say, "Every once in a while, a guy calls himself Darth because he thinks he's the shiznit and either beats back everyone who tries to challenge him...or dies.
Well, whether we go with you or me, he's right on that. Every once in a while, a guy DOES call himself Darth, DOES think he's the shiznit and DOES beat back everyone who challenges him... or dies.
It's just a question as to whether or not they declare themselves Darth just because they think they're the shiznit.
I'm trying to reimagine the Sith as an Order where there are plenty of mystery cults with their own specific secrets and knowledge that they don't share with outsiders. Darths, Darzus, Darsomething elses... with the Darths simply being the most successful and powerful of these traditions.
Krayt has started his own tradition that is, thusfar, very successful... it could quite possibly be shown to be greater than the Darth tradition, for all I know. Krayt is well within his rights to slam the Darths for suggesting that he's not the Dark Lord: he is the Dark Lord by virtue of his strength and power. He decides what is Sith and what is not Sith... but that doesn't mean he can decide what is and is not "Darth" - at least in my opinion.
I think he's co-opted the name because of its association with powerful Sith, rather than for the "right" reasons - which he may or may not be aware of, but I'm guessing he's not. Which further enrages the Darth-Sith of ages past.
The Darth title, as Kas'im says, is more than a symbol of power... and I think more than he even knew.
BobaMatt posted:
I agree there's a heritage and a secret knowledge, I just don't think it's necessarily wrong that Krayt can claim the title and start his own tradition.
But if he's not an inheritor of the heritage and secret knowledge - as I believe - then I would say it is wrong for him to claim the title.
It's certainly not out of character for him to do so, and I think it makes alot of practical sense for him to do so. Nevertheless, I will still see him as an illegitimate bearer of that specific mantle.
BobaMatt posted:
To me the Sith have always appeared to be a culture of What I Say Goes Until Someone Can Kill Me.
I think it's more: "How I Choose To Apply The Sith Teachings Goes Until Someone Can Kill Me"
It is the right of the Dark Lord to define what it is to be a Sith... within reason. No Dark Lord, however, would throw out the Sith Code/teachings. They might reinterpret them or add their own creeds on top of them... but, without them, they wouldn't be Sith.
A powerful Dark Jedi who knows of the Sith but has never studied their ways, who cannot be defeated by anyone, and who rises in a time where there are no Sith would not be in their rights to call themselves a Sith. They may very well do so and in time their own Order might very well become known as "Sith". But they would not ever be the Sith... and they would always be an illegitimate Sith Order.
I think the same thing has happened with Krayt and Darth.
If you do not follow the teachings/secrets of the Darth sect and replace them with your own, you're not a legitimate Darth. You're something else.
Krayt isn't a practitioner of the Darth tradition, as far as I can see. He's a Dark Lord who has co-opted the "Darth" name and started his own tradition. He can SAY it's the Darth tradition until he's blue in the face, but it's not the Darth tradition.
It's "the Kraytian Darth Tradition That Goes Against The Real Darth Tradition".
BobaMatt posted:
Anyway, my point is that so long as everyone respected Henry's new authority as Pope, all his reforms would become Catholicism.
Still, those reforms would have still been rooted in Catholicism since - aside from the divorce thing - Henry was very fond of catholicism and knew a great deal about it. A hypothetical "Henry Reformation" would have been an evolution of the Catholic Church, more than a reformation or replacement.
Still, I do get what you're trying to say and it's a good point. Even so, whilst it's certainly true that every Sith (we know of) currently respects that Krayt is "Darth Krayt"... well, when/if Nihl does turn against his master (and wins) after being tutored by the holocrons, you can bet the "Kraytian Darth Tradition" will be looked upon with scorn; a brief heresy that took the Darth name in ignorance and didn't know what it was talking about.
Darth_Carl99 posted:
More or less my view here. It doesn’t matter if Krayt deserves to be a Sith by any old slandered. He's the almighty one, he gets to define what makes someone a Darth, no one else can, because no one else has the power to do so any longer, they might have had once upon a time. But their time is past and their power broken. Such is the way of the Sith.
But not, I would hope, the way of the Darth tradition.
Keep in mind that no-one here is questioning Krayt's legitimacy as a Sith Lord, I'm focusing exclusively on his "Darth" title.
BobaMatt posted:
And that's basically the way I see it always having worked. The thing is, successful Darths were always the ones that realized the futility of trying to deny what they really were, and instead embraced the treachery and lust for power inherent to their Order. Successful Darths were then able to pass that wisdom on. Unsuccessful Darths were destroyed. I think the reason for my thinking in this way has to do with the utter practicality of this particular point of the ehtos - it's not spiritual or esoteric, it's merely a lesson in maintaining power. Thus, I don't see it as wrong that Krayt can be a Darth as long as he can manage to not be killed, it's just that the others are bound to see him as a pretender because he's denying something that they believe in with the certainty of truth; he's not worthy of the Darth title because he's not willing to do what it takes to keep it.
As I said above, I think it's exactly the same thing as an unkillable uber-Dark Jedi who knows nothing about the Sith teachings calling themselves a Sith. 
Krayt is a legitimate Sith Lord through XoXaan. He is a legitimate Darth through nobody (that we know).
I want to see numerous "Sith Families" duking it out, trying to prove that their way is the best way, with the Darths simply being the folks that win the league more often than not. If what makes the "Sith Family/Sect" what it is gets fundamentally changed, however, I don't see the point.
BobaMatt posted:
It probably also has to do with his willingness to bestow the title on all comers, which is a perversion of the titles' significance.
Indeed.
BobaMatt posted:
I'm posting an awful lot today because...I don't want to start my homework. I tried to wait for someone else to respond, but...well, procrastination waits for no man. Which is ironic.
Snap.
Only in my case it's usually "every day".
(Apologies for spelling mistakes/incoherence)
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Darth_Carl99
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Date Posted:
4/13 4:03pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 4:09pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_Carl99
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Ulicus posted:
But not, I would hope, the way of the Darth tradition.
Your missing the point. the Darth "tradition", (as you call it), is, (IMHO), whatever the current most powerful Sith alive defines it to be.
Thus at the current time Krayt's tradition of defining a Darth is the correct one, and the old tradition is wrong. Once upon a time The old system was the new and it was right and Krayt’s would have been wrong. But those who created and enforced the old method simply no longer exist. Thus their viewpoint is effectively irrelevant IMHO. Their traditions are meaningless, again IMHO.
To use a Jedi example.
Once upon a time it was considered wrong to fall in love if you where a Jedi. Now after ten's of thousands of years Luke has dropped that. The old system at the time it existed was right and Luke's future viewpoint would be wrong. Now in Luke's time it's the other way round. The Jedi traditions regarding Attachment are not absolute, (IMHO). The right or wrong nature of a way of dealing with them is determined solely by the individual who is in charge of the Jedi order. How it was done previously has no actual effect on how right or wrong the current method of doing it is.
Remember all this IS IMHO, let's keep this civil.
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Ulicus
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Date Posted:
4/13 4:16pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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Darth_Carl99 posted:
Your missing the point. the Darth "tradition", (as you call it), is, (IMHO), whatever the current most powerful Sith alive defines it to be.
Then there's nothing traditional about it.
Darth_Carl99 posted:
Thus at the current time Krayt's tradition of defining a Darth is the correct one, and the old tradition is wrong. Once upon a time The old system was the new and it was right and Krayt’s would have been wrong. But those who created and enforced the old method simply no longer exist. Thus their viewpoint is effectively irrelevant IMHO. Their traditions are meaningless, again IMHO.
Fair enough.
Still, I'm curious to see your response to what I posted about the powerful, unbeatable Dark Jedi who declares themselves a Sith. If he has no knowledge of the what it means to be a Sith, would he be a Sith simply because he cannot be taken down? That seems to be the inevitable conclusion one must come to if they employ such logic.
The Sith change and evolve, certainly, but there's a continuity there and a sharing of core precepts. Without that continuity and without the sharing of those precepts, well....
Darth_Carl99 posted:
To use a Jedi example.
Once upon a time it was considered wrong to fall in love if you where a Jedi. Now after ten's of thousands of years Luke has dropped that. The old system at the time it existed was right and Luke's future viewpoint is wrong. Now in Luke's time it's the other way round. The Jedi traditions regarding Attachment are not absolute. The right or wrong nature of a way of dealing with them determined solely by the individual who is in charge of the Jedi order. How it was done previously has no actual effect on how right or wrong the current method of doing it was.
Luke hasn't, however, dropped the Jedi Code - he has reinterpreted it. I don't really consider this to be the same thing at all. The "do not love" rule is an example of a fundamentalist take on the Jedi Code, the more lax rule of Luke's (and the pre-KotOR era Jedi) is an example of a liberal take on the Jedi Code. Neither reject the Jedi Code.
What I'm suggesting is that there is specific knowledge required to be a Darth that Krayt does not have, and thus he is a pretender to that one title. He is, of course, the rightful Dark Lord of the Sith.
Everything BobaMatt has said has been excellent, however, and I really like his own interpretation and thoughts as to what the significance of "Darth" could be. In fact, I only like my own a little bit more.
Darth_Carl99 posted:
Remember all this IS IMHO, let's keep this civil.
 I don't recall not being civil. If I don't post a smiley face, it doesn't mean I'm being rude.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
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Date Posted:
4/13 4:24pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 4:32pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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I love really long uber posts.
Ulicus posted:
I think it's yes either way. If he's wrong, yes. If he's right, then his assumption was correct.
Disagree. If he's right, there's no reasons to assume that he's simply assuming.
Ulicus posted:
Well, whether we go with you or me, he's right on that. Every once in a while, a guy DOES call himself Darth, DOES think he's the shiznit and DOES beat back everyone who challenges him... or dies.
It's just a question as to whether or not they declare themselves Darth just because they think they're the shiznit.
I'm suggesting that being the shiznit traditionally entails a certain ethos, but doesn't necessarily entail it.
Ulicus posted:
I'm trying to reimagine the Sith as an Order where there are plenty of mystery cults with their own specific secrets and knowledge that they don't share with outsiders. Darths, Darzus, Darsomething elses... with the Darths simply being the most successful and powerful of these traditions.
I think you're right, and there's canon to suggest it is, but my intention in this thread is to examine and speculate based on the material we have.
Ulicus posted:
Krayt has started his own tradition that is, thusfar, very successful... it could quite possibly be shown to be greater than the Darth tradition, for all I know. Krayt is well within his rights to slam the Darths for suggesting that he's not the Dark Lord: he is the Dark Lord by virtue of his strength and power. He decides what is Sith and what is not Sith... but that doesn't mean he can decide what is and is not "Darth" - at least in my opinion.
Ah.
Okay, I think I'm beginning to see one of our issues. It's, again, related to Kas'im. According to his quote, the title of Darth is something that is claimed. The practicality of much of their ethos, that is, their beliefs on power, makes me think that they are more of an outgrowth of their experience on how to be a successful Darth rather than a fundamental element of being a Darth. Traditionally, the title means Me FTW, and traditionally, Me FTW means I follow such and such practices when it comes to power, because that's an effective way to Win and to continue being full of Win, and to ensure that my successors are just as worthy of the Win as I am, if not more. Darth is a title you take when you're claiming leadership and superiority, and if you want to stake that claim effectively you're going to hew to the teachings of other people who have staked that claim effectively. I agree that there are teachings, but if the roots of Darth are claiming power and defending it, then there's nothing wrong with Krayt doing it and challenging people to prove him wrong, because that's what claiming to be Darth is all about. If Kas'im is to be believed, then the Darth sect grew out of people claiming to be Darths, defending that position, and then taking on apprentices and indoctrinating them in their same way of thinking. To claim yourself Darth in a vacuum, then, does not necessitate following the teachings of those that came before you. Darth Krayt has tossed out the Rule of Two, but decided to keep some other things. For example, he seems to take the doctrines on pain that we discussed in the other thread above and beyond previous Darths.
Ulicus posted:
But if he's not an inheritor of the heritage and secret knowledge - as I believe - then I would say it is wrong for him to claim the title.
And again, I cite Kas'im in my defense, even though you don't acknowledge him as an authority lol.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
To me the Sith have always appeared to be a culture of What I Say Goes Until Someone Can Kill Me.
I think it's more: "How I Choose To Apply The Sith Teachings Goes Until Someone Can Kill Me"
I don't see the difference. A Dark Lord of the Sith enforces his will until someone who disagrees with him can force him to stop enforcing that will, which is why the Sith have gone through so many different incarnations.
Ulicus posted:
A powerful Dark Jedi who knows of the Sith but has never studied their ways, who cannot be defeated by anyone, and who rises in a time where there are no Sith would not be in their rights to call themselves a Sith. They may very well do so and in time their own Order might very well become known as "Sith". But they would not ever be the Sith... and they would always be an illegitimate Sith Order.
I think the same thing has happened with Krayt and Darth.
If you do not follow the teachings/secrets of the Darth sect and replace them with your own, you're not a legitimate Darth. You're something else.
You're not a descendant of their tradition, but there's no reason you can't co-opt the title, as it appears to be a title that's up to be claimed.
Ulicus posted:
Still, I do get what you're trying to say and it's a good point. Even so, whilst it's certainly true that every Sith (we know of) currently respects that Krayt is "Darth Krayt"... well, when/if Nihl does turn against his master (and wins) after being tutored by the holocrons, you can bet the "Kraytian Darth Tradition" will be looked upon with scorn; a brief heresy that took the Darth name in ignorance and didn't know what it was talking about.
I completely agree with you. I still don't think it's wrong of him to crown himself Darth. In fact, I think it's very Darthy indeed to do so. The problem is that their traditions exist for a reason, a reason I suspect Krayt will find out once Nihl finishes his work on Maladi's mind.
Ulicus posted:
Darth_Carl99 posted:
More or less my view here. It doesn’t matter if Krayt deserves to be a Sith by any old slandered. He's the almighty one, he gets to define what makes someone a Darth, no one else can, because no one else has the power to do so any longer, they might have had once upon a time. But their time is past and their power broken. Such is the way of the Sith.
But not, I would hope, the way of the Darth tradition.
Keep in mind that no-one here is questioning Krayt's legitimacy as a Sith Lord, I'm focusing exclusively on his "Darth" title.
And I think what we're questioning is if there's a difference between the "Darth tradition" and "claiming yourself Darth."
Ulicus posted:
As I said above, I think it's exactly the same thing as an unkillable uber-Dark Jedi who knows nothing about the Sith teachings calling themselves a Sith.
Krayt is a legitimate Sith Lord through XoXaan. He is a legitimate Darth through nobody (that we know).
And if Kas'im is to be trusted, claiming yourself Darth has been a question of legitimacy from the very first one.
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Ulicus
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Date Posted:
4/13 4:56pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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BobaMatt posted:
I love really long uber posts.
Ulicus posted:
I think it's yes either way. If he's wrong, yes. If he's right, then his assumption was correct.
Disagree. If he's right, there's no reasons to assume that he's simply assuming.
Hey, you can't disagree that I think that! I think that!
Essentially, since Kas'im isn't a Darth, all I can think is that he has to be on the outside looking in through a foggy window. Even if he's right, he can't know that he's right? Can he?
BobaMatt posted:
I'm suggesting that being the shiznit traditionally entails a certain ethos, but doesn't necessarily entail it.
I know. I think we both understand each other and are just keeping this up to avoid our schoolwork, personally.
I agree with your suggestion, but not if "being the shiznit" = Darth. I think the being a Darth should (and this is, obviously about what we both think should be the case rather than what is) necessarily entail access to certain secrets and knowledge.
Being the shiznit, in other words, is necessary for Darthdom... but not sufficient.
BobaMatt posted:
I think you're right, and there's canon to suggest it is, but my intention in this thread is to examine and speculate based on the material we have.
Now you've confused me.
I don't see how I can reconcile the idea of competing "Sith Schools" with what you're suggesting.
BobaMatt posted:
Ah.
Okay, I think I'm beginning to see one of our issues. It's, again, related to Kas'im. According to his quote, the title of Darth is something that is claimed.
But he never actually says what the conditions needed to claim it are, just what type of Sith did claim it. That Krayt shares the same type does not mean he met the "conditions" that I would like to believe there are.
BobaMatt posted:
The practicality of much of their ethos, that is, their beliefs on power, makes me think that they are more of an outgrowth of their experience on how to be a successful Darth rather than a fundamental element of being a Darth. Traditionally, the title means Me FTW, and traditionally, Me FTW means I follow such and such practices when it comes to power, because that's an effective way to Win and to continue being full of Win, and to ensure that my successors are just as worthy of the Win as I am, if not more. Darth is a title you take when you're claiming leadership and superiority, and if you want to stake that claim effectively you're going to hew to the teachings of other people who have staked that claim effectively. I agree that there are teachings, but if the roots of Darth are claiming power and defending it, then there's nothing wrong with Krayt doing it and challenging people to prove him wrong, because that's what claiming to be Darth is all about.
And I really like everything you say... but I just like my own stuff a little more.
BobaMatt posted:
And again, I cite Kas'im in my defense, even though you don't acknowledge him as an authority lol.
Nope.
I think he's made an guess based on the trends he has noticed and that he's told Bane the truth, but that he cannot know the whole truth.
BobaMatt posted:
I don't see the difference. A Dark Lord of the Sith enforces his will until someone who disagrees with him can force him to stop enforcing that will, which is why the Sith have gone through so many different incarnations.
I made the distinction because, if the Sith abandon the Sith teachings, then they're not a culture of Sith any more.
In other words, there is a limit on "what I say goes".
BobaMatt posted:
You're not a descendant of their tradition, but there's no reason you can't co-opt the title, as it appears to be a title that's up to be claimed.
So are you saying that this uber Dark Jedi would, indeed, be a Sith?
BobaMatt posted:
I completely agree with you. I still don't think it's wrong of him to crown himself Darth. In fact, I think it's very Darthy indeed to do so. The problem is that their traditions exist for a reason, a reason I suspect Krayt will find out once Nihl finishes his work on Maladi's mind.
Well, I don't think it's wrong of him to want to crown himself Darth.
But, regardless, we know where and why we disagree.
You believe the "Darth Tradition" is "Me FTW", with a typical - but not compulsory - set of teachings/knowledge that is borne from it.
Whereas I believe the Darth Tradition is a set of teachings/knowledge but with a typical - though not guaranteed - FTW borne from them.
BobaMatt posted:
And I think what we're questioning is if there's a difference between the "Darth tradition" and "claiming yourself Darth."
There may not be, I just want there to be and I think it would be a good way to explain why the Darths of Christmas Past react so badly to Krayt and call him a heretic and pretender.
Though, I think we're both agreed that regardless of his legitimacy to Darth, Krayt is certainly not following the typical "Path of Darth" - right? That would probably be enough for me. Maybe "Darth" and "Darzu" don't represent schools of Sith knowledge but... personalities?
Darth = Me FTW
Darzu = IMHO
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BobaMatt
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Date Posted:
4/13 6:01pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
- Date Edited:
4/13 7:18pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
I love really long uber posts.
Ulicus posted:
I think it's yes either way. If he's wrong, yes. If he's right, then his assumption was correct.
Disagree. If he's right, there's no reasons to assume that he's simply assuming.
Hey, you can't disagree that I think that! I think that!
Essentially, since Kas'im isn't a Darth, all I can think is that he has to be on the outside looking in through a foggy window. Even if he's right, he can't know that he's right? Can he?
Depends. Your belief is that the Darths are a sect that Kas'im knows nothing about. My belief is that Darth is a title that can be claimed and has become a sect through an adherence to traditions. Kas'im's knowledge may not extend to the teachings of those that have claimed the title in the past, but he may very well know, as a Sith, that any Sith can potentially stand up and declare himself Darth, it's just not something you do lightly. To rephrase: I think Kas'im knows what he's talking about, he just doesn't know anything more than what he says; what's unknown to him is what happens after someone bestows the honorific upon himself, or what goes on between those that have done so and bestowed the honorific on their apprentices. Perhaps more simply: if we take Kas'im at his word, then it's possible that every Sith knows that they can claim to be Darth, but the only people that really know what being Darth is about are those who have claimed it and held onto it.
Ulicus posted:
BobaMatt posted:
I think you're right, and there's canon to suggest it is, but my intention in this thread is to examine and speculate based on the material we have.
Now you've confused me.
I don't see how I can reconcile the idea of competing "Sith Schools" with what you're suggesting.
lol Sorry, that was confusing. I think there's canon to suggest that there's a number of competing philosophies, but I think for the purposes of this discussion we should leave the Darzus out of it, is what I meant.
Unless what you mean is that you can't reconcile what I just said with my opinions on Darthdom, in which case I'll clarify: there arose a series of Darths that developed a very strong opinion and outlook on how to be an uber Sith, that is, the best way to be a Darth. I'm basing this idea on what Kas'im has stated, combined with Luke's opinions that Sith philosophy is vulgar and simplistic and doesn't involve a whole lot of complicated philosophy at all. Ever so often there's a group that calls themselves Darths, and passes the title onto their apprentices, and then goes extinct. Another group comes along, claims the title, and studies the teachings of past Darths, or sometimes study the teachings and then claim the title, much like how groups of Sith rise and fall independently of one another save for the teachings learned by their founder. What I'm suggesting is that the title Darth is, technically, not synonymous with the way of thinking that has traditionally brought the Darths so much success.
Ulicus posted:
And I really like everything you say... but I just like my own stuff a little more.
[Yoda]That is why you fail.[/Yoda]
There's really not much of a point in arguing, then, I guess...so maybe we should move on to other aspects of the Darths?
BobaMatt posted:
You're not a descendant of their tradition, but there's no reason you can't co-opt the title, as it appears to be a title that's up to be claimed.
So are you saying that this uber Dark Jedi would, indeed, be a Sith?[/quote]
No. What it comes down to is that I don't think the term Darth is a Sith designation and not necessarily the title of a specific school, it's just that the two are intimately tied together.
BobaMatt posted:
Though, I think we're both agreed that regardless of his legitimacy to Darth, Krayt is certainly not following the typical "Path of Darth" - right? That would probably be enough for me. Maybe "Darth" and "Darzu" don't represent schools of Sith knowledge but... personalities?
Darth = Me FTW
Darzu = IMHO
I have to read up a bit more on Belia to weigh in on the Darzu idea, but yes, our common ground is that Krayt's intention seems to be to take what he likes from the Darth tradition and toss what he doesn't like. Whether he's legitimate as a Darth may be irrelevant, as he's eschewing their ways anyway, and what may be more important is merely the fact that he's claiming the title and using it in a new way.
In fact, now that you brought this up, I'm wondering why were even bothering to discuss that point so much.
Weird.
Carnage04 posted:
I'll chime in with some deeper thoughts later on but first...a quick question.
In Krayt's new Sith....do the Apprentices use names or are they simply "Apprentice"? In Legacy #2 Talon isn't called by any name until she is given the title of Darth Talon by Krayt himself. Are we to assume that she is a special case because she is bound to become one of Krayt's hands or do all Sith get "Inducted" and named by Darth Krayt?
There's no way of knowing yet, I guess. I think she was named there, and I have no idea what she was called before. I kind of like the idea that she had no name at all, but that might get impractical if we apply it to everyone.
Anyhow, since Krayt is new, perhaps it would be more productive to, as we had begun to do in the other thread, discuss other aspects of the "Darth Tradtion"
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/13 6:11pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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I know little about Belia Darzu, the "IMHO" thing was just meant to be (uh, mildly) funny.
I'll probably respond in full tomorrow. I need a little downtime from Darthtime. 
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Sikon
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Date Posted:
4/13 8:10pm
Subject:
RE: NRW Presents: Wherefore art thou Darth?
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The word "Darth" doesn't originate with Revan, so it's highly unlikely to be of Rakatan origin.
(Two words: Darth Sunshine.)
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