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Topic:
The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 12:31pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 12:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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GrandMasterKatarn posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
GrandMasterKatarn posted:
Your theory has holes. Revan was NEVER destroyed, he was always true to himself no matter what the cause. The same can be said for Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus.
Revan nearly destroyed the galaxy and wanted to enslave the universe.
He was consumed more than most.
Traya is just a madwoman.
No no no. Revan was preparing the Republic for a threat in the unknown regions (possible the true sith?) He was not consumed.
Traya was exiled but when the Jedi threatened one of her students, she came back and kicked their @$$es.
Revan was "destroyed" in the sense of Palpatine.
Betrayed by an apprentice.
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People have been neglecting to tell you what a nasty little ***** you are, and I'm just having to make up for their negligence. - Tom Logan
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
5/13 12:37pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Talon,
* I'd suggest the problem lies with the perception of emphasis on certain elments at the expense of others that, for some, creates an unbalanced story that has its attention focused upon the vicious and little else. SW in contrast does not do this, so using your movie summaries let me give a different spin:
Episode I - Qui-Gon dies, Main bad guy not only gets away, but is in a huge position of power.
* Bad guy is foiled in ultimate plot, a planet is saved from slavery.
Episode II - many Jedi die, Anakin gets his hand cut off, Clone Wars start, galaxy is plunged into chaos
* But the Republic survives, albeit by accepting the poisoned pawn that is the Clone Army.
Episode III - TONS of Jedi die, Anakin turns dark, gets his limbs chopped off and almost immolated to death, twins are seperated and off to live with foster parents, Padme dies, Galaxy is ruled by Sith.
* Except 2 Jedi survive and the kids are safe, time to play a long game.
Episode IV - Obi-Wan dies, Rebels win the day, but Vader gets away.
* Entire galaxy is saved from the domination of the Death Star.
Episode V - Luke gets his hand cut off, finds out Vader's his father, Han gets frozen and taken away by Boba Fett, it ends on such a downer.
* Actually, I never found Empire's final sequence a downer: The Rebs are recovering, they've escaped and they're making plans.
Episode VI - Yoda dies, many rebels and a bunch of muppets die, Vader gets redeemed only to die, but yes, the rebels do win the day.
* The Empire falls, nuff said.
* It's known that different weights can be balanced with correct placement of the pivot point and so it is in stories. All 6 movies have moments that are perfectly placed so as to counter-balance the darkness, yet this rarely appears in DR's work.
* People are looking to Invincible to act as that balancer, as a weight that gives them encouragment to read the story again and it's questionable as to whether or not that is achieved.
* Yet it isn't as if DR has not pulled off the feat previously, TUF was a masterpiece that impressed SW fans, critics and fans of NJO both! It even had the effect of resonating backwards through the series to improve books and pieces of the overall arc. I think LOTF needed a TUF but I'm not sure it's got one.
-----signature-----
Other guy: Could I have your autograph?
Darth Vader: No, **** off or I'll kill you with a tray!
Give me penne all'arrabiata or you shall die!
And you and everyone in this canteen!
Death by tray it shall be!
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AdmiralNick22
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 12:42pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 12:44pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AdmiralNick22
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I was a little disappointed with the book.
It seemed to be for serving no other purpose than hastily ending the series. Jacen is killed, the Empire put under Fel, the Alliance reformed at Luke's direction, and Daala the new Chief of State. As for the Confederation, you get a feeling that they suddenly disbanded without any good explantion.
Let me clarify one point- I am not complaining that Caedus is defeated, the GA restored, or that the Jedi are once again the saviors of the galaxy. I have been wanting those things to happen all along. 
However, the way it was handled was, IMO, not well and to rushed. 
Not only that, but the sudden amnesia people seem to have. For the love of the Force, when did Daala become a sane, benevolent leader? Han Solo actually tells Jaina not to worry, arguing that Daala may be a good leader for the GA.
Wait, wasn't Han tortured by Daala? Apparently he can forgive and forget with ease. 
Like I said- I am thrilled that the Galactic Alliance is rid of Jacen. I am thrilled that the GA and Confederation will be at peace. I am also happy that Luceno is writing the Millenium Falcon novel. It is up to him to sort things out and explain how the galaxy is back at peace again. I have faith that Luceno can do it. 
One last thought on Daala. She acts out of character, to be sure. She sounds like any of the sane, level headed GA senators we have heard in the past, other than her veiled hint that the galaxy did not need the Jedi to always sort things out. Which begs the question- why did Denning decide to use Daala? With all the choices out there, it just seems like a poor one. Unless he did it as a huge joke, it doesn't make much sense.
Anyways, I am happy that we can move forward out of LOTF. I am opptomistic about the future of the EU.
But... you do get a sense that LOTF served no other purpose than to kill a few characters and then return to post-NJO galactic norms.
That is the biggest mystery of all.
--Adm. Nick
-----signature-----
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Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan
"A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker
"I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi
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Darth_Monopoly
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 12:51pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Well, keep in mind, its been years since we've last seen Daala, who knows what has happened to her during that time to change her.
It actually seems to keep somewhat in character with what we last saw of her in Planet of Twilight. (At least, I think it was that one.) Granted, its been years since I've read that, but I don't remember her being such an insane person in that one, especially once she was reunited with that guy, whats-his-face.
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Everything I tell you is a lie.
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Master_Skywalker20
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:33pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Just finished the book. I dont know what people are talking about. Jacen is not insane. He is not losing it. Jaina offers him ZERO chances for redemption. Jacen even DISARMS himself!!!!!!!!!!! The Jacen in this book was the same Jacen in Betrayal. Yeah, he started to lose it in the last couple books, but in this one he REALIZES that and promises to start serving again. They destroyed Jainas Character. I may be done with these depressingly bad books. The Caedus in this book was the Caedus we all wanted him to be, not the insane one he was in the last several books. Cold, calculated but together in the head. This was the first great Caedus book. Everyone still respected Jacen too at the end. The GA was with him to the end. He was ASSASSINATED!!!!! This book was rushed. Uncharacteristic and dumb. I kind of understand why Jaina made the decision to be a cold-blood muderer. She did not trust him due to his past actions. Its just so tragic. I hate it. The last time Jaina even talked to Jacen was on the Anakain Solo in Tempest and the next thing she says is Im coming for you Caedus with a the pure motive to kill. Great Job!!! I am so frusterated, depressed and.................sad. "So it ends."
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Master_Skywalker20
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:37pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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ps---
Jaina is a freaking killer too. She cut through many good soldiers just to get to Caedus. She is just as bad as any of them. The Jedi are hypicrits who feel they are right and if you arent with them, then you are evil and must be destroyed. And they hold the right to decide what is right and wrong. Jaina, Luke and them are supposed to be heroes and Jacen is bad, but I see them doing the same stuff.
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Master_Skywalker20
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:44pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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pss
The jedi started this war vs jacen with Mara going after him going going hard!!!! He kills her in self defenes which labels him evil and makes it so his family has an excuse to kill him in cold blood without redemming him....bs
They should have just kept caedus insanely evil like the last books so it wasnt so tragic when jaina killed him.
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Darth_Gilgawulf
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:59pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Wow, lots of Mandos die in this book. And I thought they were who the title was refering to. 
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"I find your lack of faith disturbing" - Lord Vader
The villian is the hero of his own story.
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luec3493
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:11pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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One thing you have to remember is that Jaina may had to kill ga crewers to get to Jacen but that is a lower costs of life compared to having to blow the ankin solo up with its entire crew just to stop one sith lord. Luke did the samething in inferno in that losing a few turbolaser crews was better then lossing the thoursands of crewers that were manning the ship during the battle. one finally example is that the death star killed several billion people during new hope and it is considered to be a viable military target for the rebels to kill.
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:51pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Master_Skywalker20 posted:
pss
The jedi started this war vs jacen with Mara going after him going going hard!!!! He kills her in self defenes which labels him evil and makes it so his family has an excuse to kill him in cold blood without redemming him....bs
They should have just kept caedus insanely evil like the last books so it wasnt so tragic when jaina killed him.
Well at least Ben did the Jedi thing by sparing someone's life in this book. I guess this was the point of the series. To show where the Legacy of the Force is headed. Jaina is obviously more warrior than Jedi and will create the Imperial Knights. Ben might lead the Order down a less murderous rode. I'm expecting most of the NJO to follow Jaina in becoming Imperial Knights and only a small amount remaining with Ben to become what Luke used to be. Frankly I think Ben is going to question the Jedi's methods on things. He already was questioning why Jacen couldn't be redeemed and he got a very un-Jedi like answer from Tenel Ka. So expect the Order to split some time down the rode. Jaina's knights and Ben's knights.
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Master to jacensolofangirl2007  Our philosophy: We strive for a 100 in awesomeness. And if we get a 90, it's still cool. ~My Fanfiction Stories~ The Guardians of Light- http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=259245
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noyrog
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/13 2:59pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Have any of you read it yet, it came out today, atleast where i live. Also, this might not be on topic, but can you buy it at Cosco?
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Master_Skywalker20
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I was just venting but this is how it is to me.......
To me it was a stetch for Jacen to fall period. But they made him fall. I dealt with that and was pretty excited all the way up until Inferno. Up until Inferno, they made him cold, calculated, deceiving and manipulative. He flys to the top takes over. COOL! Then as soon as Inferno comes he is INSANE all the way up until Invincible in which he is back to where he is at the beginning. I think Jacen's whole story was uncharacteristic and dumb.
Second, If Jaina loved Jacen as much as she says she does, why doesnt she try to redeem him not only in this book, but once in the whole freakin series. They have like 8 lines together in the whole series. Are you serious?
Third, the create one of the most powerful sith lords in history (according to the back), who is in power for 3 months and gets his ass kicked in ever book.
Forth, I have issues with the Jedi. Overall, I agree that they are better then the Sith. But when it comes down to it, they HATE the Sith, assume they are evil and will always take extreme measures to take them out. (even if it is not the Jedi way; and thank God for Ben) Lets be honest, if they would have worked with Jacen from the beginning this would have never happened. Instead they prolong the war, eventually get their way by taking Jacen out (without trying to redeem him) and then hand the keys to a freaking Imperial, while forming their own government along the way? WTF!!!!!!!!!!!
This series sucked.
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 3:55pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I am almost ahlfway through, during the battle on Nickel One, where Jaina looks like she's about to drop down on Caedus.
It is a very interesting book so far, I've already made several bookmarks in places I found interesting and will quote later. People complaining seem to focused on the END result, and not taking much interest in the interesting MEANS that are tekn to get there. Remind you of anyone? Also, I can tell from Jacen's first chapter that he's lost it, where he decides to reattach himself to Allana because it causes him pain. Caedus now thinks love and service is PAIN, that the best way of loving and serving the galaxy is through causing the galaxy to have PAIN, he is lost, but I'll reserve final judgement to when I finish the book.
I'm already starting to see Jaina's philosophy morphing into an Imperial Knight like attitude, but mostly because Luke is behaving like an Emperor, a Galactic Emperor. He is putting too much stock by his visions of the future, and trying to mess with Caedus's brain. How he was willing to sacrifice Ben, forseeing his capture by Tahiri when getting information from Shevu on Coruscant, and not warning his backup (Jaina, Leia, Han) of this. Luke is very cold and manipulative, and seemed like an Emperor and not Luke, his one human moment so far has been his fareweel to Jaina when he told one of Jacen's old jokes. I'm not done yet so there may be more, but he just seems so beyond now, it's scary.
Has anyone else noticed that Luke actively is responsible for the creation of Darth Caedus?
He cloaked Jaina as himself, in all of Jacen's visions, through the Force... and we know the Force transcends time. There WAS somebody altering Jacen's vision in BETRAYAL---but it was LUKE, not Lumiya.
But as has happened with Darth Vader, when you try to prevent a vision from happening you often become the cause of it. Anakin tried to save Padme, and killed her. Jacen tried to save Luke (though it was really Jaina), but tried to kill him. Luke is trying to prevent his vision of himself falling to the Dark Side and winning in a galaxy without any hope in its future, but it seems to me now that he at least helped cause Darth Caedus to come into being and seems to be going dark in the process of killing the threat he unintenionally caused. There's always Luke's Force Ghost in LEGACY to point to, but now I'm seeing the manipulative side to Luke that's in INVINCIBLE found in LEGACY also.
Luke hasn't crossed the line Jacen crossed in BETRAYAL... yet. Luke seems to have developed a philosophy of the ends justify the means, but he continues to hold on to the exceptiong of going to the dark side as a means.
In short, I think Luke still has to worry about that prophecy of himself even with Caedus gone, and the best thing to do would be for him to step down as Grand Master and let go of that authority and power. He even has eyes ;ike blazing suns, like Leia's vision of a new Sith Lord. He needs to let go, especially since spoilers have said it ends with the Jedi becoming one of the more powerful nations in the new Galactic Alliance.
I forsee a rift forming between Jaina and Ben in the future, from their different views on how to face a darksider shown in this book, and I could see that being the reasons for the Imperial Knights and why the Fels have contempt for the Skywalkers, at least Roan. But that's for a whole different thread coming up in the future.
On to finish the book!
-----signature-----
Choose love and mercy, not fear or greed.
Fight for freedom and justice, not revenge or authority.
Accept change and learn when to let go.
Don't let the evil be confused with the good.
Despite all suffering and death, never let go of hope or love.
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:04pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I would definitely read a book that focused on a rift between Ben and Jaina. To see them go head to head with words on how to handle dark siders would be great literature. Ben's view would be 'spare them and try to redeem them' and Jaina would be 'kill them because they are a threat to the galaxy'. And it would be a great set up for Legacy.
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Master to jacensolofangirl2007 Our philosophy: We strive for a 100 in awesomeness. And if we get a 90, it's still cool. ~My Fanfiction Stories~ The Guardians of Light- http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=259245
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noyrog
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:53pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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do any of you know how long it'll be in hardback, i dont have the 20 dollars to spare im dieing for this book lol
plus its much easier to read books when they're hardback heh
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