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Topic:
The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Master_Skywalker20
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:18pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 5:21pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Skywalker20
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I would have liked some other point of views also. What was caedus thinking during that fight? Did he have regret? What did Tenel Ka think when Jacen forced screamed at her? Did he save her? Did she forgive him? We dont get any of these details. We dont know the political situation. They only people we meet on the GA side are the people that are with Jacen, who show support. We dont get the public's opinion or other military opinion. If EVERYONE is against him (including the GA), it makes sense the war would be over once he died, but I did not like how the war just immediantly ended at his death.
Also, It seems like everyone knows that Jacen went dark, not to be selfish but to save his family but no one is willing to talk to him about that. No one is willing to confront him about that, which I believe would be the key to redeeming him. The only time he had a legit conversation with a family member since he fell was when he talked to Leia in Exile and she was sarcastic to him. Mara said drop the sith crap, if you call that trying to redeem. It just frusterates me that everyone gave up on him. That is sooo unlike EVERYONE!!!!! ESPECIALLY his twin sister, who Jacen did love.
I also HATE how Jaina didnt even care she killed her brother. Her thoughts at the end were, "I think it was Jacen, not Caedus at the end. Maybe I should have hesitated so he could warn his family and then killed him." Im sorry, but that was the same kind of crap that drove Jacen to becoming Sith. She should have said Jace, I love you and I know you are sacrificing everything to save everyone, but there has to be another way. He COULD have been redeemed. Why? Because he turned for selfless reasons and was selfless at the end. The NUT they had in the last few books, probably would not have been able to be redeemed. But Betrayal-Sacrifice and Invincible Jacen could have been.
OH, and the last we see Allana, she is Jacen is my daddy, proud like and wanting to leave Jacen a note and now she is like my dad likes hurting people. Good parenting if you are telling your 5 year old that......geeeezz
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NewStaryknight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:43pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 5:54pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
NewStaryknight
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There's a bunch of things I could say in regards to Darth Ghosts last post but I don't want to fill up the thread. All I'm going to say is that I don't think Luke is unintentionally going to the dark side in this book. He does nothing in this book that IMO constitutes as a dark side act. It never has been stated in any Jedi teachings that manipulating a force users visions is a dark side act.
What would it have mattered if Jacen saw Jaina instead of Luke in those visions in Betrayl? The only difference it would have made is that he would have killed Nelani so he wouldn't fight Jaina instead of Luke. The fall was determined the moment he started listening to Lumiya, she made Darth Cadeus, not Luke.
Give me a break people we already got people thinking Allana is going to go dark, why must we say Luke is to? Especially when it ALREADY HAPPENED ONCE! Luke isn't being dark, he's being the Jedi Grandmaster and taking charge of the situation in what is essentially the only best possible way for success.
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:16pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Master_Skywalker20 posted:
I would have liked some other point of views also. What was caedus thinking during that fight? Did he have regret? What did Tenel Ka think when Jacen forced screamed at her? Did he save her? Did she forgive him? We dont get any of these details. We dont know the political situation. They only people we meet on the GA side are the people that are with Jacen, who show support. We dont get the public's opinion or other military opinion. If EVERYONE is against him (including the GA), it makes sense the war would be over once he died, but I did not like how the war just immediantly ended at his death.
Also, It seems like everyone knows that Jacen went dark, not to be selfish but to save his family but no one is willing to talk to him about that. No one is willing to confront him about that, which I believe would be the key to redeeming him. The only time he had a legit conversation with a family member since he fell was when he talked to Leia in Exile and she was sarcastic to him. Mara said drop the sith crap, if you call that trying to redeem. It just frusterates me that everyone gave up on him. That is sooo unlike EVERYONE!!!!! ESPECIALLY his twin sister, who Jacen did love.
I also HATE how Jaina didnt even care she killed her brother. Her thoughts at the end were, "I think it was Jacen, not Caedus at the end. Maybe I should have hesitated so he could warn his family and then killed him." Im sorry, but that was the same kind of crap that drove Jacen to becoming Sith. She should have said Jace, I love you and I know you are sacrificing everything to save everyone, but there has to be another way. He COULD have been redeemed. Why? Because he turned for selfless reasons and was selfless at the end. The NUT they had in the last few books, probably would not have been able to be redeemed. But Betrayal-Sacrifice and Invincible Jacen could have been.
OH, and the last we see Allana, she is Jacen is my daddy, proud like and wanting to leave Jacen a note and now she is like my dad likes hurting people. Good parenting if you are telling your 5 year old that......geeeezz
I think Ben would've redeemed Jacen if he had been the one confronting him in Invincible. My opinion anyway. But it was destiny for Jaina to confront him and she is more warrior than Jedi. Killing is her only option.
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PointGiven
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:20pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I'm almost finished with the book.
Quick thoughts;
I like Jaina in the book, a lot
I don't like Denning taking shots at Jag, especially when it seems so uneccessary
I like Ben in the book as well as well as his quest to redeem Tahiri
I like Luke being rather proactive
I like seeing Mandalorians get torn apart especially by Caedus, which is how it should be.
But there's something missing in the book. Maybe it's the shortness.
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Sniper_Wolf
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 6:25pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I'm totally blown away right now guys. If it weren't for freaking Daala at the end Invincible would be a masterpiece of media tie-in fiction. Really really good novel.
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I name you Sword of the Jedi. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends.
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NewStaryknight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:53pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Sniper_Wolf posted:
I'm totally blown away right now guys. If it weren't for freaking Daala at the end Invincible would be a masterpiece of media tie-in fiction. Really really good novel.
Think so huh? Whats your reasons for thinking that? I admit it wasn't bad but I would hardly call it a near masterpiece.
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Jedi_Hall
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:54pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I just read through where Caedus owns a bunch of mandos, while Jania is freakin' sniping at him.
Thats how it should be done, boys and girls.
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Bfrere179
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:55pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 7:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Bfrere179
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First post here, felt I needed to vent a little. I just finished reading Invincible after buying it this afternoon on my lunch break and I gotta say after the Legacy 9 parter I just feel emotionally drained. The first books I read that got me into the EU was the YJK series, so to see Jacen gone, even though I knew it was coming, is very saddening. Also the placing of his quotes from when he was younger at the beginning of each chapter was tough. It will take awhile for me to get over the events of these books.
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AnnLouise
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:59pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 8:07pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AnnLouise
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Honestly, I don't get why people can't appreciate a happy ending.
Jacen is dead. Mara and Nelani are avenged. So are the Kashkyyk.
The horror that was Darth Caedus is gone.
It's a moment for celebration.
The galaxy is liberated and everyone should rejoice.
It seems like if the Prequels came first you'd be mad that Darth Vader died.
Happy how?
Hindenburg crash happy? Sinking of the Titanic happy? Munich/"Peace in our time" happy?
The problem is we (Legacy readers, that is) already know where this Happy Ending leads. This Happy Ending is a Pyrrhic victory that leads to a galaxy that's just as messed up as before, possibly worse, than before LOTF. It's hard to see how the end is anything but a setup for the Legacy era.
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"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man" Matty Walker - Body Heat (1981) http://thehungersite.com http://www.endabuse.org http://www.librarything.com Catalog Your Books Online Violence Against Women Is Always Wrong
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ZanderSolo
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:01pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Darth-Ghost posted:
I'm already starting to see Jaina's philosophy morphing into an Imperial Knight like attitude, but mostly because Luke is behaving like an Emperor, a Galactic Emperor. He is putting too much stock by his visions of the future, and trying to mess with Caedus's brain. How he was willing to sacrifice Ben, forseeing his capture by Tahiri when getting information from Shevu on Coruscant, and not warning his backup (Jaina, Leia, Han) of this. Luke is very cold and manipulative, and seemed like an Emperor and not Luke, his one human moment so far has been his fareweel to Jaina when he told one of Jacen's old jokes. I'm not done yet so there may be more, but he just seems so beyond now, it's scary.
I'm only at the point where Ben is just being taken, having only picked up the book a few hours ago and having errands, but i have a wacky idea!
Maybe Luke seems like he acting so [i]beyond[i] because he is already dead. Anyone else remember in Inferno when he was shot out of the sky by Jaina? Yes, we think he survived. Ben thinks he survived. So do all the jedi.
I also remember some people joking around saying Luke actually died and he is just that powerful that he does not have the blue glow.
Maybe those people were right. Luke has been dead for months and he really CAN see everything that is going to happen and how his spirit needs to affect them.
Food for thought.
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NewStaryknight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:12pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 8:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
NewStaryknight
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^^That would be kinda cool. But I don't think its very likely. I think Luke has just learned things that no other Jedi knows about yet like Jaina surmised in Inferno, and that he's just doing what Ben and him talked about in Fury, he's taking charge. I just read the book by the way and the only thing I didn't like about it was that we didn't get to see Luke and Ben's reactions to Jaina's victory over Cadeus, but I guess thats something Denning wanted to leave to let Luceno play with. I also think it stinks that they both don't know who Allana is to them yet. Other than those two I have no complaints.
Hey, did anybody think it was kinda funny how Leia is still able to seduce random aliens with her disguises like she did in the city they were they were following Ben on their first assault mission. That is the best! 
I also found it interesting that Cadeus was able to pay attention to his visions about Allana even when he and his men are getting bombarded. I think the last vision he saw was of a grown up Allana with red hair and she and a large group of friends made up of different sentinent races were conversing around a white throne. I wonder what this could mean? 
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:17pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Didn't want to mess up the review thread with this, but someone posted this exchange that's supposedly from INVINCIBLE:
Boba and Leia posted:
"We know how they treated the clones."
"Probably because they had a sense of who the clones were really serving," Leia countered. "Blind obedience deserves even less respect than mercenary-"
Now, I actually like the idea of Leia and Boba trading verbal blows, and I like the idea of Leia taking Boba to task for his crappy politics, but that line doesn't actually make sense. The clone soldiers served the Jedi. They were 100% loyal. Saying that any bad behavior (like Vos' constant use of "CLONE!" instead of calling a soldier by name or number) is because they somehow sensed that the clones would ultimately turn on their generals and end up gunning down the Jedi is...stretching things a little.
And, of course, the whole thing just seems slightly out of character for Leia, unless she's woefully misinformed on how the CW era soldiers operated.
Yeah, the clones eventually become the stormtrooper corps, but the early generations were lied to and used just as badly as anyone, and were twisted into a weapon from birth by Sideous and his behind the scenes planning. Even GL makes it out to be a tragedy. The clones thought that the Jedi had turned on the Republic, and there's room for some great debate there, and if Denning was going to broach it I wish he had gone in a bit harder on it and deeper than that.
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Sniper_Wolf
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:18pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 8:22pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Sniper_Wolf
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NewStaryknight posted:
Sniper_Wolf posted:
I'm totally blown away right now guys. If it weren't for freaking Daala at the end Invincible would be a masterpiece of media tie-in fiction. Really really good novel.
Think so huh? Whats your reasons for thinking that? I admit it wasn't bad but I would hardly call it a near masterpiece.
The long version is over in the review thread. The short version is that Denning was able to take bad previous material (outside of the last two Allston novels I disliked LOTF) to create a lean final novel that improved greatly on that material. Major points that make it really good to me.
1). Caedus is finally a credible villain.
2). The fight scenes were incredible.
3). Denning did the Traviss and Allston things (Mandos and humor) way better than those two.
4). There was virtually no filler at all.
5). I actually did break out laughing several times.
I know this part is subjective, but the fact it had been years since I've read a new post-ROTJ novel that made me go "Damn that was really really good." Exile and Fury in comparison where "eh, this better than the other stuff, but not genius." Considering this novel is written by the same guy who did Dark Nest, of which I have a very vocal and public loathing of to the point I swear never to reread the trilogy, makes the surprise anymore.
Darth-Ghost, Ben's mission was the Jedi version of black ops. "Without you, we wouldn't have known where to look for Caedus- and we wouldn't have known what he was up to in the Roche system" (201). Pretty much Luke had to do what must be done to stop Caedus. If the mission was a suicide mission I'd doubt Luke would have sent Ben. Also notice that Ben's captured put the seed of doubt in Tahiri's mind that causes the schism between her and Caedus. What Luke sneaky? Yes. However it had to be done to save the galaxy.
Edit
Patch, that exchange is in the novel. The actual fact of if Leia is right or wrong is not the point. Leia's rebuttal helps counteract the "Traviss says Mandalorians are god" accusations. Of importance to this novel is Denning is the first author to use Boba and the Mandos after Traviss' massive expansion of the bucketheads. I really enjoyed Leia not taking the Boba/Mando POV as gospel.
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I name you Sword of the Jedi. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends.
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:30pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 8:40pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Nobody145
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Well, I just wasted the last two, three hours of my life reading this book, and as soon as I get over this feeling of throwing up, I'll probably give a review or something. I should probably go back to the bookstore first and finish reading some pages I skipped to give a decent review. Well, the book wasn't that bad, the quality was pretty good, the pace was pretty good, its just some of the ending that made me feel so... bitter about this series.
Well, I know I'm late to the discussion by like 60 pages, but better late than never. First of all, hurrah, Caedus is dead, Caedus is dead, hurrah!  Though I am glad they briefly discussed saving people from the darkside with Ben. And while I've been cheering for his death for a while, those brief interludes through Jacen's life does help to show the tragic nature of his fall.
Second... they have kriffing DAALA as Chief of State? ...sure, she's a relatively neutral party now, but damn, to go from neutral to ruler of the galalxy is a pretty ridiculously big promotion. Damn, I hope she blows herself up soon, just like how all the other Chief of States have gone out (except for the first two and best Chiefs).
Well, ok book, glad I didn't buy it, and good riddance to LotF. I'm not sure how much Denning personally came up with and how much came from the planners, but the Confederation war was a joke, but that isn't anything new. And as expected, Luke sat out most of the book in terms of direct action, though it was cool to read how Luke was interfering with Caedus' visions. And yay for Amelia!
I actually liked Caedus' behavior for a good deal of the book. He actually seems to buckle down and act rational for a good deal of the book, constantly reminding himself not to lose it and go out of control like he's done so often throughout the series, though he's still not that bright at times. He kills Isolder (yet another character death) without noticing that Isolder's genes were already sampled, and can't understand that Luke's still very good at that Force phantom technique apparently. And the Moffs weren't too bad, I don't mind intelligent, competent Moffs, though they should be tried for war crimes, but like Luke said, they needed the Imperial fleets to help push for a truce, and it mostly worked out.
I also noticed the Legacy comic set-ups, potential Jaina coupling, though I wish they could've given Zekk a definitive end, rather than another vague vanishing thing. Sure, I remember Denning saying once that Raynar was meant to just be a loose end, as its war and sometimes people just vanish, and we all saw how that ended up with Raynar  , but if Zekk ends up king of a bug nest... well, after this LotF rubbish, anything goes.
And huh, neither Ben nor Luke did much this book, although that seduction scene was... very disturbing. At least Ben saved someone, but he didn't really contribute much to the finale. Not that there was much of a finale, as the Confederation War was more like a brief sideplot, and Caedus' death was mostly tragic. Though like Jaina mentioned, it turned out almost like Caedus would've wanted it to, with everybody united. Though that kind of reminds me of one of Anakin Skywalker's lines from the RotS novel, about how he and Padme can wait for Palpatine to unite the galaxy in hatred against him, then the two of them can kill Palpatine and be galactic saviors.
Oh well, guess the best thing I can say about this book and series is that I'm glad its over. Good riddance, and bring on the Millenium Falcon book, I really hope that book washes out the bad taint this book left in my mind. Oh well, at least the next KotOR comic will help clear my mind of this rubbish.
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Sniper_Wolf
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:41pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I have a thought on the role of the GA-Confederation War to chew the fat a little.
Caedus going public as a Sith with Niathal's faction leaving changed the entire face of the war. No longer were the issues that leads to the Confederation's secession was the pressing issue; Caedus' Sith insanity was. Caedus became a lightning rod for Niathal's faction, the Confederation, and the Jedi colition to unite against a common enemy that would destroy them all. The Sith's actions throughout LOTF aggravated the war into a much uglier conflict had Lumiya and Caedus not did their thing. The impression I got from Invincible is that the two waring sides finally realized how stupid the war was. Confederation's goals and aims no longer really mattered, removing Caedus from power was the top priority. That would describe why Denning barely makes mention of it. Caedus' threat reunited the galaxy so to speak.
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I name you Sword of the Jedi. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends.
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