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Topic:
The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:28pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Wow, Bennie has got all the older chicks wanting him! Shoot. Now I'm feeling jealous  . Why can't I get that luck? It's not fair  .
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Master to jacensolofangirl2007  Our philosophy: We strive for a 100 in awesomeness. And if we get a 90, it's still cool. ~My Fanfiction Stories~ The Guardians of Light- http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=259245
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:32pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Sniper_Wolf posted:
Nobody145, are you a Potter fan? I've heard similar complaints about Deathly Hollows' ending, and I wonder if you felt the same way.
Well, I am a Potter fan, or was. Its not that I hated the seventh book, or anything like that (though didn't care much for the sixth) I just lost interest, especially after the fifth book. Though my major complaint for the seventh book was that the epilogue read like a fanfiction, but guess that was mainly because of how few surprises there were, but a happy ending is nice too.
And the Republic's transition into Empire was legal, so I don't see why the clones would become disloyal after that. If their only loyalty was to a Republic, then once a Republic ceases to exist, then maybe, but everything Palpatine did (in public) was legal, which is why the clones had no problem and just followed orders, which is just how Palpatine planned it out. And not sure if every clone knew about Order 66 or just the commanders, or just some of the higher-ups.
It might've been interesting if Caedus had actually been going for this ending intentionally, uniting the galaxy against him, but his ego kept getting in the way. It was kind of sad how Caedus was actually rushing to try and save Tenel Ka and Allana, but then Jaina finally shows up, ready to kill him. At least Tenel Ka didn't actually die (did they say how she saved herself or not? I assume she was well-guarded enough or she used the Force), though I can't really fault Jaina for ignoring Caedus' attempt to try and go save Tenel Ka, considering Caedus' track record already. I was kind of disappointed we never got to see Han and Leia returning Allana to Tenel Ka and asking about Allana's parentage, though the Falcon should be a more happy place these days, so that was a nice ending.
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sidious618
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:46pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I was going to rush and read this one but after reading the spoilers (Daala- that's absolutely unforgivable) I'm decidedly lukewarm. I'll read it but boy are my expectations low.
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Obama '08
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jedimasterkenobi02
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:47pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 9:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
jedimasterkenobi02
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I thought that the book was well focused. It got the point and used the things from Karen's books that I did not like, all that much, to the best of their ability. I liked that Luke was able make the hard calls finally. I love who Ben has become. I could not help feeling that Jaina was very much like Obi-Wan; going to kill her brother and knowing that she may not make it out alive. Good book. 8 1/2 out of 10.
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The man preoccupied with his own rights is not only a disastrous, but a very unlovable object; indeed, one of the worst mischiefs we do by treating a man unjustly is that we force him to be thus CS Lewis
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Rogue_Thunder
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:55pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I just finished reading it a few hours ago (I just picked it up on Sunday).
I'm still trying to absorb the book as a whole, which was overall awesome, but I especially liked the ending. There was just enough menace left in the air with Daala leading the GA, the Fett's unable to return home (how badly was Keldabe sacked by the Remnant? And can they rebuild without the Mandalore?) and the uncertain status of the Jedi Order, with what seemed to be througout the entire book a badly emotionally damaged Luke Skywalker leading them (Anyone else get the impression he was barely holding it together trying to help his niece kill the newphew that murdered his wife?) All that uncertainty in the air left me with the feeling that it's not all a happy ending where everyone just flies off into the sunset, which is how I like my galaxy far, far away.
Also looking forward to the new book Millenium Falcon and having some questions answered about her past, finally, and if some other characters from the EU past might make a comeback in the series, or if it'll set up the situation in Legacy
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:23pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/13 10:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Nobody145
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention, but I am VERY glad they cleared up the whole flow-walking thing, and went back to Tahiri's original motive for joining Caedus (too bad the other two authors forgot about that motive completely). Its not actually time travel or alteration, but it does alter minds, specifically memories, and while that isn't too big a thing, with Force users, its not a good thing to mess around with someone's head. It clears up why Jacen didn't try to fix any events in the past earlier, though too bad it took Tahiri so long, but it is nice to have Caedus explain the specifics. That was a nice part. Too bad all of Caedus' knowledge died with him, but perhaps that much knowledge is inherently danger, and anyway, Luke still seems more than a match, and its mainly Luke's inherent character flaws that stopped him rather than Caedus.
By the way, did they mention Vergere much in this book? I skimmed the book very fast, but don't remember any references. With Lumiya dead, I guess Vergere's Sith status ia staying canon, but I wish they could've gone back to how Jacen started out as Vergere's attempt at a very unorthodox Jedi. Though all those lame jokes were pretty nostalgic already, so I guess it balances out. For some reason, I still found the joke where it mentions he made it shortly before cutting off Tenel Ka's arm funny, in a morbid way.
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Jedi-Sith
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/13 10:40pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Just read it.... well actually listened to the audio version, since I'll have to wait a bit longer before I can get hold of a book version (disadvantage of living in the most remote capital city in the world.... sigh)
The Good:
Jaina was a real ROTS Obi-Wan like character throughout this book, her sparring against Jag, Zekk, Tesar and Lowie was great, as was her two duels with Darth Caedus.
Jacen, Luke and Jaina all being shown to have the shatterpoint ability really upped the anty (even if it never came to any point in the end) and Jacen actually looked like a real dangerous threat when he battled the Mandalorians. In fact I REALLY liked the way the Mandalorians were handled in this book. This is the way they SHOULD be handled, (and I'm a fan of Mandalorians). Luke trading verbal spars with Fett was great! The set up for Legacy was great to see, Jagged on his way to Emperor, the Imperial Mission, etc.
The Hapan twins with Ben were two of my favourite characters with their constant flirting and Ben not quite sure how to react to them. Another favourite minor character was CC, Jaina's hostage when she was running around Anakin Solo. Her comments about Jaina's failed seduction attempt of the guards needing work, and her attempt to hit the alarm while Jaina dealt with Mirta's guards, only to stop half hand stretched out to the console once Jaina was finished and looking at her again, then saying "This is gonna leave a bruise isn't it?", before Jaina says "Probably" and knocks her out. I laughed.
Ben was really good in this book, his sparing of Tahiri was really future-Jedi Grandmaster material and another one of my favourite lines of the book was when during the final battle with Tahiri and her Stormtroopers, one of the twins tells him to deal with the Jedi (Tahiri), and he exasperatingly goes "She's not a -" and then just sighs, as he's constantly trying to explain that she's not a Jedi, she's a Sith.
The scene when Jagged, Han and Leia found Jaina holding Jacen's dead body has got to be one of the most tear-jerking moments I've read in Star Wars, comparable to everyone's reactions to Anakin's death.
The Bad:
I was disappointed we didn't get to see Caedus' POV during his death, or much of the final battle at all (since I was listening to an abridged audio book, this may be different in the book). It was also dissappointing not to see everything wrapped up in the final book. I was so glad to finally see the Mandalorians used outside of Karen Traviss' books but then we were missing Wedge and Tycho and all the other characters who have been important to this series. For the final book, and the death of Darth Caedus it just didn't seem to be dramatic or epic enough I thought. I need to read the novel still as it seemed ALOT happened off screen in the audio book, but hopefully thats cause it was abridged, but it was getting irritating.
Daala as COS. That was just... odd. What made it even odder was she wasn't in the book at all until being declared COS. There was no logical set up, it just got thrown in at the end. I remember JAT, it was one of the first Star Wars novels I ever read. If someone had said back then she was gonna end up COS, I would have thought it absurd. Heck, I still do now that its happened.
The biggest problem with this book was not so much what it had, but what it didn't have. Like the rest of the LOTF series it didn't feel like it belonged in a over arcing series, it didn't include all the aspects of the series (at least it had the Mando's this time, but it still missed a lot else), heck this one missed half of Dennings' stuff (not much Jag or Zekk or any of that stuff). It felt rushed and forced at times.
The Ugly:
28 year old Tahiri attempting to seduce 14 year old Ben - I mean I date an older woman myself, but THAT is just wierd. Especially with him spending the whole time trying to convince her she was too nice to be a Sith
Jaina hacking off Caedus' arm with a metal sword, no lightsaber, no cauterisation, lots of blood... blood that apparently stains and can't be gotten off when it splatters across your face, and then can be tracked. Cool concept, but ugly mental picture. :P
Darth Caedus fighting with a hole in his gut, and used needles stuck all over one side of his face where he fell. NOT a pretty picture.
Jaina's forearm snapping in half from a kick of Caedus, descriptions of wrists flopping over his leg during the block.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 11:17pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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AnnLouise posted:
Happy how?
Hindenburg crash happy? Sinking of the Titanic happy? Munich/"Peace in our time" happy?
The problem is we (Legacy readers, that is) already know where this Happy Ending leads. This Happy Ending is a Pyrrhic victory that leads to a galaxy that's just as messed up as before, possibly worse, than before LOTF. It's hard to see how the end is anything but a setup for the Legacy era.
*blink* A hundred of peace?
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NewStaryknight
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
5/13 11:42pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I'm still geeking out on how Luke is able to turn the tables on Cadeus without even having to leave the ships. Though it is hard to be glad about it when some say it was all of the dark side. To me, Luke's mind set is no different than the Solos. He's very down and depressed that he has to let his niece go after his nephew but what choice does he have? When a knight goes after a dragon but is told that he will become like the dragon if he does he has two choices, he can either go after it anyway and risk becoming just as bad or he can find someone else of equal valor do the job instead and help out in any way he can. Thats what Luke does in this novel, he does the responsible thing by letting his niece do the job she feels she's destined to do and doesn't let recklessness or his anger or pride make him blind to the fact that the force is telling him that for once its not up to Luke whether the bad guy lives or dies. To fight and execute a Sith one must be free of any sign of a personal vendetta. Luke could do that with many of the foes he faced in the past, but he couldn't do it with the one who killed his wife and sensed no good left inside. Therefore, a different strategy was called for.
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JadedSkycrawler
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 11:54pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Due to finals [ugh] I still have yet to read the book, mostly 'cause I know if I go get it, I'll end up reading it instead of studying...
NewStaryknight posted:
I'm still geeking out on how Luke is able to turn the tables on Cadeus without even having to leave the ships. Though it is hard to be glad about it when some say it was all of the dark side.
I'm glad Luke's doing something...erm, interesting and from the sounds of it fairly impressive, but a little disappointed that his actions are apparently a little dark or seem hypocritical.
But actually, it's more like 90% glad and 10% worried...and I can't really blame the guy too much, as it's understandable that he's angry or bitter or depressed.
I'm hoping that my "90% glad" doesn't change after reading the book...  
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T-boy-wan
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/14 2:29am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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My goodness, Denning loves blood and gore, doesn't he?
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/14 2:43am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/14 2:45am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
beccatoria
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ZanderSolo posted:
Darth-Ghost posted:
I'm already starting to see Jaina's philosophy morphing into an Imperial Knight like attitude, but mostly because Luke is behaving like an Emperor, a Galactic Emperor. He is putting too much stock by his visions of the future, and trying to mess with Caedus's brain. How he was willing to sacrifice Ben, forseeing his capture by Tahiri when getting information from Shevu on Coruscant, and not warning his backup (Jaina, Leia, Han) of this. Luke is very cold and manipulative, and seemed like an Emperor and not Luke, his one human moment so far has been his fareweel to Jaina when he told one of Jacen's old jokes. I'm not done yet so there may be more, but he just seems so beyond now, it's scary.
I'm only at the point where Ben is just being taken, having only picked up the book a few hours ago and having errands, but i have a wacky idea!
Maybe Luke seems like he acting so beyond[i] because he is already dead. Anyone else remember in Inferno when he was shot out of the sky by Jaina? Yes, we think he survived. Ben thinks he survived. So do all the jedi.
I also remember some people joking around saying Luke actually died and he is just that powerful that he does not have the blue glow.
Maybe those people were right. Luke has been dead for months and he really CAN see everything that is going to happen and how his spirit needs to affect them.
Food for thought.
Dude, I've been saying that since [i]Inferno came out! 
*waits impatiently for Invincible to be delivered*
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Han's a girl, so I got a Golden Ewok.
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JadedSkycrawler
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 2:47am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Jaina's forearm snapping in half from a kick of Caedus, descriptions of wrists flopping over his leg during the block.
Gahh...  
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 2:50am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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JadedSkycrawler posted:
Jaina's forearm snapping in half from a kick of Caedus, descriptions of wrists flopping over his leg during the block.
Gahh...
Yeah, as I tried to indicate Earlier.
Jacen is not exactly killed because he's a shrinking violet.
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Darth_Carl99
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 2:58am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Master_Skywalker20 posted:
Jaina offers him ZERO chances for redemption.
Ohh lovely...
Master_Skywalker20 posted:
Jacen even DISARMS himself!!!!!!!!!!!
Would you or someone else care to explain that comment please...
I know I said I wasn't going to go into this, but this has got me mad again so i'll go into it.
I've had a bit of a PM conversation with DP4M and the impression had from that conversation is that by the time Jaina closed for the killing blow, Jacen was so badly injured she could simply have taken off his other hand without any real trouble.
She effectively has Jacen disarmed by this point yet she still kills him.
That’s a very sharp contrast with DN where Jaina outright admit, (page 143 of the UK paperback of TSW), that killing a disarmed opponent was a darkside act. She hasn't a leg to stand on here, she's outright admitted in the past that the kind of action she took with Jacen is wrong. Not to mention all the people she killed getting to him.
Which again is a huge contrast to DN where she went out of her way to disarm and capture her opponents, or where that wasn't possible, (i.e. army command levels), she then went out of her way to minimise enemy losses as well as her own. She purposefully did her best to keep the death toll on both sides down.
We see very similar things from Luke and Mara in Exile with those security guards at Gillitar, which deliberately contrasts with Jacen's kill, kill, kill attitude.
I'm not trying to claim that the Jaina of DN didn't have a huge streak of pragmatism, (it's the strongest pragmatic streak we've seen in a Jedi since at least Mace Windu IMHO), but she also combined that dep pragmatism with a deep well of Idealism. She effectively had Luke's idealism and Mace's Pragmatism, and she tried the idealistic Solutions first, and then when it became clear they would only kill more than they would save. She switched to the pragmatic solution. But she would work her way up through the possible pragmatic solutions, so that she always used the least pragmatic solution of all.
The Jaina of Invincible is nothing like that, she jumps straight to the most pragmatic solution and doesn’t even attempt the lesser pragmatic solutions, let alone the idealistic solutions. IMHO, based on current spoilers the Jaina of Invincible is no better than the Jacen of DN, I.E. a Sith Apprentice in all but name.
What makes it worse is the blatant inconsistency’s with Fury. Jag specifically balls Jaina out for her Kill, Kill, Kill attitude, and Leia and Hand are worried by it.
Jaina agrees with Jag, and tries to curtail it.
Then come invincible not only has she switched back to the kill, kill, kill attitude with no explanation that makes any kind of sense based on Jaina's past character. But Jag, Leia, Han, and even Luke have switched viewpoints as well. (Luke indirectly specified in Fury that all attempts to stop Jacen should start as capture attempts and only switch to kill attempts after the operation was in progress if it was the only way to stop him escaping).
Ultimately the reason I loved Jaina in DN was that her combination of Idealism and Pragmatism. She wasn't so pragmatic she was going darkside, (like Jacen), But she wasn’t so limited by her idealism that she couldn't do the pragmatic thing when she needed to, (unlike Luke, e.g. Fury where he won't kill Jacen because it would mean killing a littlie girl as well). She was IMHO as close to the perfect Jedi s it's possible for a character to get and still be believable. And since I see the perfect Jedi as the morally perfect human being, Jaina became the fictional character who was closest to the morally perfect human being, whilst still being believable.
Ultimately Jaina was, (morally), everything I aspired to be and knew I wasn't. On top of that, the psychological after-effects of the Vong war on her are VERY similar to the after effects I still suffer from as a result of many years of bullying at school. This combination means that I had a very strong personal connection with her character, both in an IU and OU sense. So to see her acting so out of character angers and upsets me very deeply.
@Charmalange: The reason me, (and some others), aren't celebrating is because this isn't a happy ending.
We've got a morally corrupt, hypocritical Jedi Order that’s abandoned the very idealism that’s supposed to define it.
We've got a war-criminal running the GA
We've got another bunch of war criminals running the remnant.
Simply put the rulership of the galaxy and the Jedi are far worse off than they where before LOTF.
NJO worked because at the end of it the galaxy was more united than it had been before NJO, (Remnant and several others had joined the GA), the Jedi Ideals and idealism had been justified and vindicated, and the government was less corrupt at the end than at the start. Yes the galaxy paid and awful price for these things, but they still gave hope and a feeling it wasn't all in vain.
With LOTF you don't get that. Everything pretty much is worse than when we started and theirs no sign or hope that it will get better, (unlike ROTS where we KNEW it would get better).
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