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Topic:
The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:10am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/14 3:13am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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She effectively has Jacen disarmed by this point yet she still kills him.
Not really. Read it for yourself but Jacen Solo has effectively beaten the crazzap out of her and has no intention of stopping despite his damage. As Han Solo says, if Jaina hadn't killed him then he would have killed her.
The whole idea Jacen was stopped is nonsense. Black Knight torn to pieces or not, Jacen intended to keep coming until Jaina was dead and he got to Tenel Ka. We're talking a point where if Jaina hadn't killed him, I'm fully sure Jacen Solo would have pulled some Darth Sion/Maw levels of crazy.
No seriously, I honestly expected Jacen Solo to rise from the dead when Jaina killed him.
WHY does Jaina treat him so roughly? Because she's trying NOT to kill him I choose to believe. However, the GUY LOSES AN ARM AND A LEG AND IS STILL TRYING TO KILL HER. It's insane to watch and Jaina pretty much realizes he's utterly out of his mind (I think I mentioned this). It's a bit like trying to disarm the Terminator.
We've got a morally corrupt, hypocritical Jedi Order that’s abandoned the very idealism that’s supposed to define it.
The Jedi Order effectively says Jacen Solo is a murderer of innocents and that he's been found guilty by every possible court of law that exists. The Jedi Order state that their purpose is to defend the people of the galaxy from evil and point out that Jacen Solo has shown no willingness to come in peacefully.
They say, yes, don't give him an inch. However, the whole "kill him and nothing else" is fanon. If Jacen Solo had submitted then he would have been allowed to be captured. However, luke and everyone else knows he won't come along because they feel it.
Jacen also kills Isoldor and TRIES TO KILL HIS SISTER trying to warn Tenel Ka/Allana. Like I said, he's totally off his rocker mad and Jaina would have died otherwise if she hadn't killed him. It was self-defense.
We've got a war-criminal running the GA
True. Though Daala seems to be redeemed, rather than being a set up for evil in the future.
We've got another bunch of war criminals running the remnant.
It's the Empire.
Pellaeon was a war criminal. Nothing new there.
Simply put the rulership of the galaxy and the Jedi are far worse off than they where before LOTF.
Peace, a unification of the galaxy, evil is cowed and now serving the benefit of everyone. Two Face and the Riddler are passing out Balloons while Batman mourns that he had to kill the Joker to defend Batgirl.
So, good for everyone.
It's a future of 100 years of peace with the Jedi now installed as one of the Galaxy's Rulers.
Bravo to everyone.
Fans may say Jaina killed Caedus execution style and he was disabled but while he was disarmed he was hardly BEATEN. It's the most brutal fight in the EU but he's fully capable of going another ten rounds with Jaina if she doesn't take him down (Jaina, on the other hand is on her last legs).
She can kill him or die, at this point she can't try and disable him further because she's brutalized and exhausted + half killed herself.
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Master-Chief-Kenobi
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:37am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Everyone thought it was so sweet when we saw Luke talking to mara's force ghost in revelations but we werent told what happened in that convorsation. After seeing how Luke acts in invinicble I think it's safe to say that the convorsation went something like...
Luke: How? Why? I miss you...
Mara: I found out Lumiya & Jacen were plotting to murder ben as part of a sith sacrifice. I saved Ben.
Luke: Jacen WHAT?!?! He plotted to murder my son & murdered my wife? I will crush him, slowly I will destroy...I can't face him...i'm too angry.
Of course I also belive that Luke's killing of Lumiya is a lightside act (killing a sith is now a dark side act? Please....) and Luke made up that malarky of being tainted by the darkside to justify his plan of destroying jacen without ever facing him & sending the one person Jacen has no respect for as a jedi to kill him as a way of sending a very strong message that the jedi would never have ordinailly allowed him to do.
What we have here folks is that Jacen did what noone NOONE has been able to do since Darth Vader...he made Luke SKywalker angry. And that my friends is the scariest thing of them all.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:37am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/14 3:45am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
xx_Anakin_xx
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Darth_Carl99 posted:
@Charmalange: The reason me, (and some others), aren't celebrating is because this isn't a happy ending.
We've got a morally corrupt, hypocritical Jedi Order that’s abandoned the very idealism that’s supposed to define it.
We've got a war-criminal running the GA
We've got another bunch of war criminals running the remnant.
Simply put the rulership of the galaxy and the Jedi are far worse off than they where before LOTF.
NJO worked because at the end of it the galaxy was more united than it had been before NJO, (Remnant and several others had joined the GA), the Jedi Ideals and idealism had been justified and vindicated, and the government was less corrupt at the end than at the start. Yes the galaxy paid and awful price for these things, but they still gave hope and a feeling it wasn't all in vain.
With LOTF you don't get that. Everything pretty much is worse than when we started and theirs no sign or hope that it will get better, (unlike ROTS where we KNEW it would get better).
That says it all beautifully. Just finished the book and I couldn't agree more. I have avoided this section for a long while now, not wanting any spoilers, but I have to agree with those who felt depressed at the end. I always see SW as being full of hope and uplifting by series end (even if it is because what comes after is already known). But this book left me with feelings of hopelessness and despair for the GFFA. With Denning the author, I expected Jacen's fate, but I really thought the final battle between J&J was written poorly and the aftermath was worse. Nine books spelling out the fate of Jacen and then...the *Sith Lord* screams a final message of warning arising from his deep love for his daughter (er...last I heard Sith didn't hold Love as important and Anger to be squelched, but that was Jace-the-Sith), then he dies, his head is in Jaina's lap - - and then ?? I suppose they just left him in the disposal room.
Jaina's reflection in the epilogue bit was odd at best, there was good in him, but no way to bring him back to the light?? The guy was less Sith than Vader, so how could that be possible? Jaina killed her brother when his saber was disengaged, not the Jedi way to kill if capture is possible - and I didn't like the way they played Jacen either because he escaped Luke the last time Allana was in danger, but he can't get away from Jaina by just disabling her long enough to get out of the room? His force lightning ran out or what? No remarks from Tenal Ka, though I suppose she got the warning; his daughter still hates him as far as we know and Luke, Ben, Tahiri and the Jedi have *no comment* about Jacen's death. And I also agree the Jedi were lost in the fog...I wrote all of it in my review before coming here, so I won't repeat, but I was not a happy camper at book's end. Then Han, Leia and Jaina have their *light-hearted* conversation at the end, chuckles and jokes...er reminder: yer last son died.  Finally, Jaina's heart fill with unimaginable joy, but sadly, it had all been sucked from mine.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:46am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Jaina's reflection in the epilogue bit was odd at best, there was good in him, but no way to bring him back to the light?? The guy was less Sith than Vader, so how could that be possible?
Jaina, Luke, and other Jedi couldn't bring him back.
Maybe Allana or Tenel Ka could.
But it was clear that Jacen hated and wanted to destroy his family don't you agree?
Bizarrely, I'm surprised at the vehemence against the compromise ending.
I'm glad Jacen got some measure of redemption but I'm glad he's dead.
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Sniper_Wolf
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:54am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I gotta go with Charles on the whole Caedus point. If Jaina had hacked off all of his limbs and brought in ysalamiri Caedus would probably have tried to bite Jaina to death. The whole "Sith Lord or not" is a trivial discussion compared to the fact Caedus would not stop until he physically could no longer do anything. Frankly death probably was a lot better for Caedus than spending his entire life under lock and key.
I've notice people are taking Tahiri "seducing" Ben way out of context. Denning makes it pretty clear that Tahiri is not trying to jump into Ben's pants. Showing Tahiri trying to get the information out of Ben in ways besides typical Sith sadism shows the internal conflict going on inside Tahiri that makes her able to be redeemed and Caedus incapable. People are reading far too much into this scene. Ben is barley out of puberty. Guys think with the head not on their shoulders. Tahiri is merely trying to play off that.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 4:02am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
5/14 4:06am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Also, Jaina would have probably blocked force lightning. People seem to be underestimating Jaina during all this. Caedus doesn't take her seriously and is distracted yet she's in "The Zone" and thus the two are evenly matched until it's fairly clearly a case that the first one who drops DEAD is the loser.
It's a fight way more brutal than Luke vs. Caedus (which was insanely brutal to begin with). I'd say Jaina has about 80% of Caedus power but he's about 20% down below his normal strength because of distraction/insanity. So, again, evenly matched though I suspect a Jedi trying to kill him would have had it easier.
and the biting thing was intentional. It's really surprising that Jaina treated his body so respectfully, I would have driven a wooden stake in his chest and cut off his head first (stuffed with Jedi wafers)
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Sniper_Wolf
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 5:05am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Reading your post Charles makes me rethink the scene where Jaina learns shatterpoint. While Jaina did not use it to beat Caedus Jaina is able to master a rare technique in such a short time. The whole point of the scene is to push any doubt in regards to the Skywalker blood pulsing through Jaina's veins. Jaina fans should be stoked through this entire book.
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JadedSkycrawler
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 5:20am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I've notice people are taking Tahiri "seducing" Ben way out of context. Denning makes it pretty clear that Tahiri is not trying to jump into Ben's pants. Showing Tahiri trying to get the information out of Ben in ways besides typical Sith sadism shows the internal conflict going on inside Tahiri that makes her able to be redeemed and Caedus incapable. People are reading far too much into this scene. Ben is barley out of puberty. Guys think with the head not on their shoulders. Tahiri is merely trying to play off that.
I'm very glad people- namely you, Sniper, and I think a couple other posters have attempted to clarify as well- are beginning to clear this up.
It's funny, almost like that game of telephone in grade-school...what's said originally becomes something else, and then something else, and in this case more exaggerated.
It's (the Ben/Tahiri scene) gone from a mind game/messing with his head to someone claiming- don't remember if it was here or njoe- she actually went to far as to "grind hips" ... and now slowly coming down to simple manipulation because she didn't have the heart to torture the kid. W0w. haha. 
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 6:25am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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The Shatterpoint stuff is weird. I'm not complaining but... I was never under the impression that it was a technique that could be taught before.
Hmm. Maybe it's just like Battle Meditation? It can be taught, but you're only ever going to get a few natural "Savants".
I think Mace Windu is probably better at it than both Luke and Jaina, regardless of the fact that they could pick it up quickly.
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Trepidation
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 6:53am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Anyone else notice a distinct and conscious effort by Troy Denning to show Jaina as gaining a sense of maturity? There were a bunch of times where she actually recognizes her past immaturity (even to the point of allowing the Masters to joke about it without terse retort). Of course, that is a behavior that happens about a decade sooner in most women. But, I liked that they didn't portray the character as the perpetual teenager that they have been...and rather than morphing Jaina into a totally different character without explanation...Troy chose to address the issue directly.
Very heartening in my opinion...and about freaking time!!!!
Cheers,
Trep
PS: Not really a spoiler as the above is rather generalized.
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canadianjedimama
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 7:33am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Sniper_Wolf posted:
I've notice people are taking Tahiri "seducing" Ben way out of context. Denning makes it pretty clear that Tahiri is not trying to jump into Ben's pants. Showing Tahiri trying to get the information out of Ben in ways besides typical Sith sadism shows the internal conflict going on inside Tahiri that makes her able to be redeemed and Caedus incapable. People are reading far too much into this scene. Ben is barley out of puberty. Guys think with the head not on their shoulders. Tahiri is merely trying to play off that.
I've chosen to view it this way and also as a way of Denning showcasing the incorruptable moral centre of Ben Skywalker. He may have seen and done some bad things, but his soul is intact.
But I still hear "Mrs. Robinson" everytime I read the darn scene....
And I'm truly heartened that people are finally getting to read the book and liking it.... 
CJM
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Darth_Carl99
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
5/14 7:35am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Trepidation posted:
Anyone else notice a distinct and conscious effort by Troy Denning to show Jaina as gaining a sense of maturity? There were a bunch of times where she actually recognizes her past immaturity (even to the point of allowing the Masters to joke about it without terse retort). Of course, that is a behavior that happens about a decade sooner in most women. But, I liked that they didn't portray the character as the perpetual teenager that they have been...and rather than morphing Jaina into a totally different character without explanation...Troy chose to address the issue directly.
Very heartening in my opinion...and about freaking time!!!!
Cheers,
Trep
PS: Not really a spoiler as the above is rather generalized.
I'll see how this plays out since I haven't heard anything too big on this.
But I hope it doesn’t mean they've totally removed her tendency towards doing whatever the hell she feels is the right thing to do regardless of what others say, or her tendency to strongly put down, (verbally), anyone who gets in the way of her doing her job or directly attacks her because they where never signs of immaturity, they where signs of the psychological scars she's suffered, and please don't try saying otherwise. As someone who suffers from similar, but much less severe issues I recognise the symptoms very well.
For me it was the bullying at school. So now any time I feel under attack, backed into a corner, or like I’m being forced to do something I don't want I tend to lash out, either verbally or physically, (depending on weather it's a verbal or physical threat). Not because I’m immature, but because I’m scared of a return to "the bad old days", and I have a lot of repressed anger and frustration left over from those days. I just don't want to go back to how things where and the repressed anger and frustration cause me to react in a severely negative manner. It's also left me with severe trust issues. In an anonymous environment like this I can open up a fair bit. But in RL I tend to be very slow to trust, and I don't socialise much, I’ll openly admit I’m probably somewhat introverted.
Jaina is very similar, her fear is failure of her duty, she failed, (in her own mind), a great deal in NJO, she lost more friends, family, and comrades in arms because of her perceived failures than she cares to name. As she puts it herself in ELI, it's not dying that scares her, it's surviving and finding she has nothing left. So now any time she feels her ability to do her duty, or those close to her are under attack, she reacts very negatively and much of the suppressed, grief, frustration, and self hatred tends to come out at these times, making the reaction that much more negative. On top of that, much as with my trust problems. Jaina has severe issues getting close to people because she's constantly afraid of being hurt even more when she inevitably (in her mind), losses them.
You can and DO learn to control the strength of your negative reactions with time, (UI rarely react in a physical manner anymore), and to be less prone to being triggered by minor littlie things, but it never fades away completely, it never can because it becomes ingrained as a survival trait.
Thus by all means reduce her tendency to blow up when challenged. But Jaina should never lose her strong tendency to blow up if attacked over how she's doing her job, or to react negatively if those close to her are attacked, or even ever become quick to accept others into her life, because if they want to be true to her character, (and the tone of realism they try to set in their character development arcs), then these are going to be permanent lifelong issues Jaina has because of what she suffered during NJO.
@Ulic: The Shatterpoint ting has me confused too, I’m pretty sure Mace is crystal clear that his ability is a natural only ability, and that it can't be "learned" if you don't already possess it.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/14 7:45am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Ulicus posted:
The Shatterpoint stuff is weird. I'm not complaining but... I was never under the impression that it was a technique that could be taught before.
Hmm. Maybe it's just like Battle Meditation? It can be taught, but you're only ever going to get a few natural "Savants".
I think Mace Windu is probably better at it than both Luke and Jaina, regardless of the fact that they could pick it up quickly.
That's the way I'm taking it, yes.
It's a rare ability and whether it manifests itself powerfully enough to be usable without training is probably dependent on the individual.
It doesn't bother me that it's something the Skywalker line can learn though, because, certainly within one or two generations of the Son of the Force, I figure they have pretty much every Force Ability at least at a latent, trainable-with-practice level, even if they don't have every single ability bursting out of them unbidden, the way Mace just couldn't help but see Shatterpoints.
As to whether Mace was better at it - probably. Though I guess if we wanted to rationalise Luke as best at everything it could simply be that Mace had less "background noise" - i.e. he wasn't utterly gifted in all areas so it made his Shatterpoint ability stand out?
Still, I think that probably Mace was just an exceptionally gifted Shatterpoint user. The way Cade is an exceptionally gifted healer.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/14 7:49am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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beccatoria posted:
Though I guess if we wanted to rationalise Luke as best at everything
Bleh! 
Let's make him the second/third best at everything. Which makes him the best overall. (Like Master Chief )
I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, though.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/14 8:12am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Ulicus posted:
beccatoria posted:
Though I guess if we wanted to rationalise Luke as best at everything
Bleh!
Let's make him the second/third best at everything. Which makes him the best overall. (Like Master Chief )
I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, though.
Well, yes, ewww, but I was just making the case, if we had to... 
Though I tend to think he genuinely is the best lighsaberist (well, and pilot, but that's not strictly a Jedi thing) and perhaps seer, but aside from that, yes, second or third best making him best overall is probably right.
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