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The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/15 7:07am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Trepidation posted:
I wouldn't be surprised if Denning got in on this series by pushing the plotline based on his portrayal of Leia not wanting children because they would go Dark from "Tatooine Ghost."
Denning got to this series by coming up with the whole plot of Jacen falling to the Dark Side.
I thought that this portrayal of Leia being scared of having children existed before TG?
Still, I'm pretty miffed that this hasn't come up at all in LotF. If Denning really came up with it, he pretty much has an obligation to bring it up in Invincible - and save Jacen too. Because he would then have wrecked a major movie character's life mostly on his own... Made her to do what would basically turn out to be a wrong choice back in TG. There would be no planning committee that could take the blame.
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ZanderSolo
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 7:44am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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TIEPilot051999 posted:
ZanderSolo posted:
I think it'd be kewl if Jacen won.
How, exactly? Jacen's been responsible for a lot of bad things in this series (starting a war of choice, taking control of the government for his own ends, getting rid of anyone who disagrees with him), and I have long stressed the point that the only way it can be answered is for him to die. Anything less is unacceptable.
I really dont care how. Im no writer, so as long as it is entertaining, i will be happy. I just kind of want a sad/gloomy outlook as the ending for this series. Especially since TUF ended so damn happy and it turned out it was all for naught regardless.
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/15 8:04am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
4/15 8:11am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
beccatoria
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McEwok brings up an excellent point about Tahiri. She was a fantastic chance to introduce a new non-Skywalker character, tied to the Skywalker family regardless. I'm saddened, not so much because they chose to have her side with Jacen (the member of that family who seemed to remember best, that she should have been one of them), but that it got so little development during the course of the series.
That said - there's a chance here, for the book to handbreak turn and provide us with an extraordinary storyline for her, if Denning commits to telling us her story, or allows her to surprise us. On the face of things, I'm not hopeful: but then I remember that while I might prefer the character beats provided by Allston, of the three LOTF authors, Denning is the one who can consistantly surprise me. 
I'm not sure I'd call it certainty or hope, per se, but I would call it a preparedness to be wrong?
Similarly, I would quite like Jacen to survive and continue to be a villain post-LOTF. That said, I desperately don't want Jaina to die, or to be humiliatingly beaten. Jaina needs to leave Invincible victorious as much as Jacen needs to survive it to to be a credible villain.
Again, I fear that the simple route of killing Jacen will be taken. Or, while a lot less likely if only because she's the last Solo child (and even if she dies and her death somehow redeems Jacen, he'll always have that hanging over his character: he'll never quite be a hero again), they'll choose the "shocking" ending and have her killed-as-Luke.
But again: this is Denning. And that makes me wary of assumptions.
If nothing else, I'm desperately glad that he'll be writing the Team Jaina storyline. Because he's one of the few authors who likes and respects Zekk. And while I wouldn't be surprised to see Zekk wearing a red shirt this novel, he's a character who's survived a long time. I like him, and I know that Denning does too. There's a vulnerability to the character that's often hidden behind his total-hands-off-the-dark-side policy and I'd like to see the fall out of his brush with it in Fury. Unlike McEwok, I don't think it still has him in its grasp absolutely. I think that his experience with it previously will allow him to do what he did before: ban himself from thinking about it and continue to function. But where I think we agree is that something will still have him in its grasp, though I'm inclined to say vulnerability and fear. Which are certainly paths to the dark. I'd say if I had to make a guess about his mental state it would be "fragile" not "dark", but that the two are only a hair apart.
He'll also give Leia the page-time she deserves, I think (hope). There needs to be some sort of visual payoff to Jacen's dream about his mother coming to kill him, and I aboslutely agree with McEwok when he points out Leia's peripheral involvement with the Jedi and her absolutely brutally violent training with her lightsaber. The fight between Luke and Caedus may have involved kidney stabs and partial scalping, but in that same book, Leia got into a bareknuckled fight with an Ewok who was barely her enemy and started knocking teeth out and spraying blood. It was hardly as epic, but it was nearly as graphic.
Personally, I think that Leia's near-Qui-Gonlike decisions to do exactly as she pleases make her one of the healthiest Jedi around in terms of attitude to the Order. Of course, I do not find that to be at all exclusive of the fact that I need to see Han stabbing that girl and saying, "I loved you, in my own way," and Leia muttering, "I will not be afraid of the dark," and trying to kill her son with the quiet, murderous attitude of her father.
There's an intriguing core to Leia. She's capable of extraordinary violence, anger, fear and singleminded conviction. She's far more like Anakin Skywalker in personality than Padme. But while she toes the edge of that line, she's also undergone impossible personal, professional and galactic tragedy and has never actually become a monster.
As an idle daydream-like aside, her ability to maintain her personality and rationality in the midst of boiling rage and brutal choices make me wonder if having her as the Sith Lord wouldn't have been an absolutely spectacular chance to utterly reinvent the meaning of the term and the nature of a villain.
Either way, Denning did surprising things with the stability of the Jedi Order in DNT. I hope he does surprising things with the emotional stability of this strike team in Invincible.
Jaina did, after all, actively embrace a dark side, psychopathic combat technique, and has been convinced to kill her brother rather than try to redeem him. And my reading of the situation is that her preference for capturing him - even if its an unreasonable goal - didn't stem from Jedi dogma, but from her love of him. Again and again throughout the NJO and DNT, Jaina's storyline has been shutting down connections and waiting for her own inevitable death.
In some ways, it's a very Jedi trait. She can sublimate her own identity and desires for the greater good and be at peace with that - or at least, calm about that. But honestly, I think it's also manifested in a sense of inevitability that she'll die saving someone or something, to the point that she's waiting for that to happen rather than trying to survive to save the next person.
It doesn't help that she has no sense of mental privacy. From birth to now, there have only ever been two times when she has not actively shared her mind with someone - either Jacen, the killiks, or Zekk. I always wondered if Jaina didn't fight the killik mass identity on principle - the way so many readers instincitvely reacted against it - because there was nothing frightening for her about losing herself in a gestalt. In fact, it was comforting. I think that's what Jaina wants: the comfort of a shared mind, so she's never alone, and so that her body, herself, in context, seems less important. So when she, as an individual dies, it'll be okay.
I'm babbling now and getting off-topic, but the point is, Jaina doesn't deal well with being on her own. Not part of a team or squadron or hive or twin-bond. She went nuts in DJ, and the only way she coped with it post-Bloodlines was to distract herself by flirting with her ex-boyfriends and trying to recreate some sort of group/team connection at the expense of wider issues.
Jaina isn't stable, and I don't think her time with the Mandalorians made her more so.
This strike team is a powderkeg, and I hope that Denning explodes it, because the fallout could be spectacular and surprising. Having everyone lock down, professionally, and work together to take out Jacen seems a missed opportunity with such fascinating dynamics as we enter the final chapter of LOTF...
And, well, there's my idle speculation.
I think that Denning has the potential to blow this thing wide open with awesomeness if he doesn't follow the predictable patterns we're all expecting.
But, as I said before, I'm also nervous. More is riding on this book than even on Betrayal.
Still: Betrayal lived up to they hype (I think), so here's hoping that the series bookends well.
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Trepidation
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/15 8:29am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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DarkLuke14 posted:
I thought Lomi Plo and Welk died in the Dark Nest Series... 
They did...but they first appeared in "Star by Star" for reasons and plot lines that escape me...cause there was no reason, unless the author was hoping to float an idea to the powers that be about a "trilogy" he would be more than happy to do (hence, the Dark Nest "triology" which could have been spewed in one single book).
Again...my opinion as a card carrying cynic and misanthropist.
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
4/15 8:31am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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beccatoria posted:
Similarly, I would quite like Jacen to survive and continue to be a villain post-LOTF . . . Jacen needs to survive it to to be a credible villain . . . he'll always have that hanging over his character: he'll never quite be a hero again)
While I strongly agree with your first comment about wanting him to survive, mentioning that he would never be able to be seen as a true hero again is an interesting thought. Have we ever seen a redeemed Sith Lord, well, after being redeemed? I'm running through the main ones in my mind and nearly all of them either died shortly after (Anakin) or their story ended after their last heroic act (Revan/Ulic).
While I would much rather see Caedus continue to evolve into a credible villain, I will admit there is something intriguing about exploring the development of a former Sith Lord after their redemption, as I'm not sure if we've ever truly seen that personal struggle for acceptance explored in detail before. Its one thing to turn back from the dark side, its something else to have people forgive you. The closest thing I can think of is Kyp, but Caedus has committed a lot more personal crimes than blowing up a somewhat random planet, so it would be interesting to see what they did with him. Though, admittedly, I fear they'd just want to forget about him and treat him as if he was shunned by everyone else.
beccatoria posted:
There needs to be some sort of visual payoff to Jacen's dream about his mother coming to kill him . . . Of course, I do not find that to be at all exclusive of the fact that I need to see Han stabbing that girl and saying, "I loved you, in my own way," and Leia muttering, "I will not be afraid of the dark," and trying to kill her son with the quiet, murderous attitude of her father.
Interesting... I'd forgotten about the vision of Leia.
The image of that happening just flashed through my mind but with Jacen suddenly realising if he didn't do something he and his mother were going to die, so pulling some crazy Darth Bane-flying-through-space Force bubble-ish thing to save them both. Anyway... random thought.
The Han thing is what primarily has me concerned about Tahiri being set up to take the fall with Jacen surviving or being redeemed or [insert ending where Jacen lives here]. The girl in the vision had brown hair but if Jaina can look like Luke... maybe Jacen's pet villip has taken up his taste for Force illusions. If she does serve as the mandatory Sith kill to up the body count I just hope we get some character exploration first so it isn't so blatantly just a forced attempt to turn her into Sith fodder.
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/15 8:46am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
4/15 8:46am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rouge77
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Zorrixor posted:
Have we ever seen a redeemed Sith Lord, well, after being redeemed? I'm running through the main ones in my mind and nearly all of them either died shortly after (Anakin) or their story ended after their last heroic act (Revan/Ulic).
Revan apparently played the part of a redeemed hero and leader of the Jedi for about a year before vanishing in the Unknown Regions. We haven't actually seen him in this role, but we have mentions of it, so he had a short career in a role that is so far unique.
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Trip
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
4/15 9:10am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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TIEPilot051999 posted:
Jacen's been responsible for a lot of bad things in this series
Has he?
Honestly, Luke has a lot more to answer for, at this point, than Jacen.
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patchworkz7
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
4/15 11:10am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Trip posted:
TIEPilot051999 posted:
Jacen's been responsible for a lot of bad things in this series
Has he?
Honestly, Luke has a lot more to answer for, at this point, than Jacen.
Agreed.
Since Denning wrote the defection of the Jedi in Inferno, I'm hoping he does something more than just have the Jedi rejoin the GA as happy partners again, since the Jedi have been actively killing members of the GA armed forces (as well as leaving them to face certain death by breaking off during battle, sneaking onto the flagship of the GA fleet, and more lawlessness).
The thing is, I don't think it'd be half as serious if Luke had just not set up the GA fleet and had instead pulled the Order out early on, or spoke up sooner, or even asked the GA if they really wanted to force the whole Corellian issue.
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GrandMasterKatarn
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 11:20am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
4/15 11:21am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GrandMasterKatarn
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Trip posted:
TIEPilot051999 posted:
Jacen's been responsible for a lot of bad things in this series
Has he?
Honestly, Luke has a lot more to answer for, at this point, than Jacen.
So do Han and Leia.
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
4/15 11:25am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
4/15 11:46am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth-Ghost
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I just thought of something. Tahiri is basically drawn to Jacen because he is Anakin's brother, one of the last links left for her to his memory. What will be Tahiri's reaction to seeing Anakin's brother and sister in a duel to the death, one suicidal and one lost, both ultimately as a result of their little brother's death? She herself having been lost, since his death? (And INIVINCIBLE being written by the same author who wrote STAR BY STAR).
Could Tahiri be a deciding factor that saves both Jacen and Jaina, perhaps summoning the ghost of Anakin Solo to possess her, them being reunited and "whole" is greater than the sum of their parts prophecy comes true, Anakin acts through Tahiri to stop their fight and talks to Han and Leia who are also present and finally provide resolution to the whole post-SBS plot aftershocks of his death?
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
4/15 11:29am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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TIEPilot051999 posted:
ZanderSolo posted:
I think it'd be kewl if Jacen won.
How, exactly? Jacen's been responsible for a lot of bad things in this series (starting a war of choice, taking control of the government for his own ends, getting rid of anyone who disagrees with him), and I have long stressed the point that the only way it can be answered is for him to die. Anything less is unacceptable.
Just what the hell does "doing bad things" have to do with whether or not it would be an interesting story outcome if the villain won temporarily?
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Emperor_Time
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 11:33am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Why do I get the feeling that Jacen will killed Jaina in the duel and then Ben will killed Jacen after that? 
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Thrawn McEwok
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
4/15 11:53am
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Ulicus posted:
Zorrixor posted:
"At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was."
Picture the Yoda/Sidious fight but imagine Yoda won. Thats the main issue I have with Caedus. Had Yoda won, Sidious would have been Emperor all of a few hours. 
Perfect comparison. 
And a tyrannical Jedi police state for the next twenty years, until Vader trains his children up to overthrow them. 
- The Imperial Ewok
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beccatoria
Title: 181st Imperial Discussion Group host
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/15 12:36pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Zorrixor posted:
While I strongly agree with your first comment about wanting him to survive, mentioning that he would never be able to be seen as a true hero again is an interesting thought. Have we ever seen a redeemed Sith Lord, well, after being redeemed? I'm running through the main ones in my mind and nearly all of them either died shortly after (Anakin) or their story ended after their last heroic act (Revan/Ulic).
While I would much rather see Caedus continue to evolve into a credible villain, I will admit there is something intriguing about exploring the development of a former Sith Lord after their redemption, as I'm not sure if we've ever truly seen that personal struggle for acceptance explored in detail before. Its one thing to turn back from the dark side, its something else to have people forgive you. The closest thing I can think of is Kyp, but Caedus has committed a lot more personal crimes than blowing up a somewhat random planet, so it would be interesting to see what they did with him. Though, admittedly, I fear they'd just want to forget about him and treat him as if he was shunned by everyone else.
Well we saw it with Ulic to an extent, when we visited him in Redemption.
I think some of my feelings that I couldn't see him as a hero again (which has nothing to do with being an interesting character) comes from the fact that a lot depends on narrative intention and how the story is told. Revan, for instance, because we never see his victims, really, and because we exist with him in isolation - as the hero - we have excuses for "not remembering", he's us... It's easier to want to see him as a redeemed hero.
For Jacen - I would be interested in seeing him slowly working towards redemtion - absolutely. But not at the expense of Jaina. I think if his continued existence as a character cost her her's, I would be...bluntly I would be bitter. I'd feel that her character was sacrificed so I could watch someone who didn't deserve it claw his way to redemption. Perhaps that would be the bravest thing the franchise could do to me, because it would show me the true impossibilities and fears and anger inherent in having someone try to redeem themselves in the eyes of the friend and family of those they wronged in ways they cannot right. But I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to want to read it.
Zorrixor posted:
Interesting... I'd forgotten about the vision of Leia.
So had I until I was flipping through Betrayal recently. And it just made my blood run cold. It's a wonderful image, absolutely stunning and I hope it's not a wasted one. I just can't forget it now.
Zorrixor posted:
The Han thing is what primarily has me concerned about Tahiri being set up to take the fall with Jacen surviving or being redeemed or [insert ending where Jacen lives here]. The girl in the vision had brown hair but if Jaina can look like Luke... maybe Jacen's pet villip has taken up his taste for Force illusions. If she does serve as the mandatory Sith kill to up the body count I just hope we get some character exploration first so it isn't so blatantly just a forced attempt to turn her into Sith fodder.
Yeah, she could be dying her hair to be undercover?
I'm torn now because on the one hand, I want all the visions to come true (including the killing Luke, but not a cop-out here it's secretly Jaina because I want her alive more than I want that vision fulfilled), but the only young girl I can see Han realistically saying, "I loved you in my own way," to before stabbing is Tahiri, and...I don't want her to die either. Though it's less of a deal breaker to me, I suppose. Still...I don't want that to happen.
I suppose I'm being hypocritical and selective and choosing to focus on the visions that I like, rather than the ones that trouble me?
Perhaps my obsession with the awesome visions in Betrayal is also what's fuelling my paranoia that Jaina will die? Oy.
Thrawn McEwok posted:
And a tyrannical Jedi police state for the next twenty years, until Vader trains his children up to overthrow them.
Now that I would read!
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GrandMasterKatarn
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
4/15 1:05pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
GrandMasterKatarn
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Darth-Ghost posted:
I just thought of something. Tahiri is basically drawn to Jacen because he is Anakin's brother, one of the last links left for her to his memory. What will be Tahiri's reaction to seeing Anakin's brother and sister in a duel to the death, one suicidal and one lost, both ultimately as a result of their little brother's death? She herself having been lost, since his death? (And INIVINCIBLE being written by the same author who wrote STAR BY STAR).
Could Tahiri be a deciding factor that saves both Jacen and Jaina, perhaps summoning the ghost of Anakin Solo to possess her, them being reunited and "whole" is greater than the sum of their parts prophecy comes true, Anakin acts through Tahiri to stop their fight and talks to Han and Leia who are also present and finally provide resolution to the whole post-SBS plot aftershocks of his death?
And the semantic thought for the day was brought to you by our sponsors... 
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