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Topic:
The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Sector15
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 1:06pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
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Sector 15 in name only
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Emperor_Time
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 1:23pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Sector15 posted:
Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
Actually it's Luke Skywalker must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Jacen in this book, skewered and dying on a Jedi saber. 
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That Zayne is Shmi's ancestor theory for the win. 
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
4/15 1:33pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
4/15 1:39pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Zorrixor
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Darth-Ghost posted:
Could Tahiri be a deciding factor that saves both Jacen and Jaina, perhaps summoning the ghost of Anakin Solo to possess her...
While I'm skeptical about there being any Splinter of the Mind's Eye type moments, I confess I have somehwat been expecting Denning to have Anakin appear ever since I first heard Jacen was going to fall to the dark side. The Anakin Solo teasing with the ship and the droid both felt to me like attempts to disillusion people into believing it wasn't really going to happen, so that by the time it eventually did people had long since lost hope. I did wonder in the past how they could explain why Anakin didn't just appear in the first place, but as the final fight is presumably with Jaina not Luke, I could probably buy the idea that Anakin was not prepared to intervene until Jacen was on the verge of going through with an act he could never return from, i.e. killing his twin. Mara is one thing, Jaina I feel is another.
Admittedly I've been a little iffy after Revelation whether Mara is there to fuilfil the ghost role instead. I've just always half expected a final scene where Anakin appears just as Jacen is about to kill Jaina and causes him to break down into tears in realisation of what he's become. If we do get a redemption something like that is about the only thing I can see myself being comfortable with. I just feel there is something poetic about the fact Anakin was the reason Jacen fell to the dark side, at least in my eyes, because he never came to terms with his death. To me, Jacen himself seems to still be going through what many fans have since Star by Star. He started off venerating his fallen brother, naming his flagship after him, but his descent into Sithdom has been symbolic with his turning on his brother's memory, questioning why he ever named the ship after him, etc. While it is a bit of a lost cause now, I somewhat feel there was a lot of potential in his flow-walking sessions with Tahiri to explore Jacen's decision to finally forget about his brother; as he seemed to sacrifice his brother's memory at the same time he became Darth Caedus.
I do think I would still rather see him stripped of the Force against his will, as it would leave us in somewhat new territory with the character who would be left behind to explore. However, if we are to get a redemption, I believe I could accept something as simple as Anakin Solo appearing and causing Jacen to suddenly break down into a blubbering wreck. I just don't think Jacen would be able to take it if his brother appeared and shook his head and asked him what he was doing. To me it would be Jacen's "WTK?!" moment that Vader experienced when he cut Obi-Wan down. It just feels like something that would pierce through the wall Caedus has built up, destroying the misguided belief he was doing all this to save the galaxy and spare his family and daughter from the same fate as his brother. It would be a somewhat over the top happy ending for me personally, but it would have echoes of ROTJ that I think I would be able to appreciate and bring us full circle back to why he fell in the first place.
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Sector15
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Emperor_Time posted:
Sector15 posted:
Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
Actually it's Luke Skywalker must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Jacen in this book, skewered and dying on a Jedi saber.
I'd settle for both getting it if it got rid of Luke  . Seriously I think I've heard every Luke Skywalker triumphs against all odds story I need to. I'm only in it for the bad guys.
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Emperor_Time
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 2:53pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Sector15 posted:
Emperor_Time posted:
Sector15 posted:
Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
Actually it's Luke Skywalker must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Jacen in this book, skewered and dying on a Jedi saber.
I'd settle for both getting it if it got rid of Luke . Seriously I think I've heard every Luke Skywalker triumphs against all odds story I need to. I'm only in it for the bad guys.
If you add Leia and Han dying too then it a deal.
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That Zayne is Shmi's ancestor theory for the win.
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Sector15
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 3:03pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Emperor_Time posted:
Sector15 posted:
Emperor_Time posted:
[quote=Sector15]Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
Actually it's Luke Skywalker must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Jacen in this book, skewered and dying on a Jedi saber.
I'd settle for both getting it if it got rid of Luke . Seriously I think I've heard every Luke Skywalker triumphs against all odds story I need to. I'm only in it for the bad guys.
If you add Leia and Han dying too then it a deal. [/quote]
We'll chuck Jaina and Ben in and have Solowalker kebab. 
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Lord_Boney
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 3:11pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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I'd like to see Jacen emerge victorious after Invincible. He's been defeated far too often, and needs a victory to confer some badly needed Sith legitimacy on him. But since this will never happen, I'd settle for having him defeat Luke but then be defeated by Jaina and run off to Ziost to learn more about the Sith and to increase his power.
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tjace
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 5:07pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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beccatoria posted:
Personally, I think that Leia's near-Qui-Gonlike decisions to do exactly as she pleases make her one of the healthiest Jedi around in terms of attitude to the Order. Of course, I do not find that to be at all exclusive of the fact that I need to see Han stabbing that girl and saying, "I loved you, in my own way," and Leia muttering, "I will not be afraid of the dark"
I'm glad someone is sticking up for Leia, because I feel that way too. Also, where is this vision in the book? I can't find it.
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ZanderSolo
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 5:21pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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tjace posted:
beccatoria posted:
Personally, I think that Leia's near-Qui-Gonlike decisions to do exactly as she pleases make her one of the healthiest Jedi around in terms of attitude to the Order. Of course, I do not find that to be at all exclusive of the fact that I need to see Han stabbing that girl and saying, "I loved you, in my own way," and Leia muttering, "I will not be afraid of the dark"
I'm glad someone is sticking up for Leia, because I feel that way too. Also, where is this vision in the book? I can't find it.
In the Vision Luke has in Betrayal.
As an aside, Best few paragraphs in the series IMO.
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Darth_Carl99
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 5:29pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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posted:
Also, where is this vision in the book? I can't find it.
Same here.
Zorrixor posted:
Darth_Carl99 posted:
I wish people would get over the glass half empty syndrome they have with jacen's power.
I look at it from a Glass half full full veiw.
The main trouble I have with looking at it from the glass half full perspective is he's still only been Dark Lord of the Sith, what, a couple of months now? 
I know from a certain point of view you could take that to mean he has in fact been the most devastating Sith Lord ever considering what he's achieved more in two months than most in their whole lives. I just have trouble feeling that strongly about someone who will have lasted maybe three tops. He may be going up against the greatest Jedi the Order has ever known but it just leaves Caedus looking as if he didn't really have a plan for what to do after ousting Omas and Niathal. Its all well and good seizing power, I'm sure Krayt had many opportunities, but its holding onto it that matters.
Its usually a measure of how many trillions you killed, how many planets you destroyed, how many decades your empire lasted. With Caedus its more Six Day War than World War. The length of time shouldn't matter as Alderaan killed more lives in a single shot than some wars managed in years but normally Star Wars always throws us the attitude of "bigger is better" which I think is why its difficult to appreciate Caedus in light of how most Sith Lords are.
I still wish they'd stuck to their original plan and made LOTF cover three years. Just knowing Caedus had fought dozens of other battles in between novels would have made me respect him a whole lot more. Its just depressing that you can count his victories on your fingers. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy, its just he feels like a footnote.
"At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was."
Picture the Yoda/Sidious fight but imagine Yoda won. Thats the main issue I have with Caedus. Had Yoda won, Sidious would have been Emperor all of a few hours. 
I don't have a problem with that, I actually understand that. It's all these people ONLY claiming Jacen is one of the weakest Sith lords of all time because he's getting beat all the time. When in fact he's often ONLY JUST getting beaten, and his winning would be the effective "final victory".
If he defeats the confederation, he has the whole GA fleet to turn lose on Hapes and the Jedi, they'd both go down in a matter of days with all that hunting them. It would be Order 66 all over again.
Jacen's done VERY well in reality, his failures show only how good his opponents are, not how weak he is since they would usually either give him the final win, or bring him much closer to such a total win.
But many people insist his weaknesses show him as having Jar-Jar like incompetence, (I've actually seen someone claim Jar-Jar would make a better villain).
In reality if you where to throw him up against all the other Sith Lords we know of, only a few would be able to beat him in an all out war like the current one, (the only two I can name with any certainty are Palpatine and Revan). Which is damm impressive in reality.
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Rouge77
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/15 5:51pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
- Date Edited:
4/15 5:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rouge77
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The problem with this is that Jacen looks like a loser, because he... loses. Many of his defeats have been narrow defeats, but still, history - or more like those who write the history books - have a tendency to remember only the victors, not those who almost, but not quite, won.
Why can Krayt mock Jacen, who almost certainly surpassed Krayt in everything when it came to Force powers, dueling abilities, and - based on what we have seen - commanding fleets? Jacen has also been accepted as a Sith Lord by the Dark Side, which might not be the case with Krayt. But still, it's Krayt who gets to mock Jacen, because he won and Jacen didn't.
Krayt's a victor, even after he gets defeated and killed and his Sith Empire has fallen. Because he won and ruled his empire for years. How many actual victories has he had? The one against the IKs and the false Emperor. Yet that was enough.
Jacen, on the other hand, has just lost and lost, fought one stalemate, and has then again and again survived to fight another day. He hasn't been able to finish any of the sides that are fighting against him. Yes, the pure ability to survive should perhaps make people to appreciate his powers. Yet, he is a loser, and will always be one, and the history will give it's judgment on him, and end up mocking him.
And thus when Krayt mocks Jacen, he mocks the whole LotF through it's main villain. Like Jacen could have been a great Sith Lord, LotF might have been a great series, if Jacen would just have won something. But every time he lost, LotF lost. And so, before the final book, Jacen is a failure as a Sith Lord, and LotF is close to being a dud.
Nine books about how Jacen might be a terrible dictator who could rule the whole galaxy with an iron fist is a bit too much, when it was almost certain from the beginning that that scenario had very little chance of coming true.
Somebody should have told the folks at DR that one can also lose by winning one Pyrrhic victory too many - as narrow victories can in the long run be as devastating as narrow defeats. That way Jacen could have gotten his credentials as a believable villain and a Sith Lord, yet he would have also lost in the end.
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Emperor_Time
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 6:14pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Sector15 posted:
Emperor_Time posted:
Sector15 posted:
[quote=Emperor_Time][quote=Sector15]Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
Actually it's Luke Skywalker must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Jacen in this book, skewered and dying on a Jedi saber.
I'd settle for both getting it if it got rid of Luke . Seriously I think I've heard every Luke Skywalker triumphs against all odds story I need to. I'm only in it for the bad guys.
If you add Leia and Han dying too then it a deal. [/quote]
We'll chuck Jaina and Ben in and have Solowalker kebab. [/quote]
A Solowalker kebab sounds fine with me.
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That Zayne is Shmi's ancestor theory for the win.
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Lank_Pavail
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
4/15 7:31pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Thrawn McEwok posted:
Ulicus posted:
Zorrixor posted:
"At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was."
Picture the Yoda/Sidious fight but imagine Yoda won. Thats the main issue I have with Caedus. Had Yoda won, Sidious would have been Emperor all of a few hours.
Perfect comparison. 
And a tyrannical Jedi police state for the next twenty years, until Vader trains his children up to overthrow them. 
- The Imperial Ewok
Sorry to go off target but how, McEwok? Yoda beats Paply, who then wouldn't arrive in time to save Vader from being crispy fried corpse on the lava shore of Mustafar. Even presuming Yoda dies in the effort, Obi-wan and the 100 or so Jedi left are in little position to lead anything, certainly not a for a while. More likely, we'd seen a wider galactic civil war, with would be Imperialists, and Republicans fighting over control of the now leaderless clones and droid armies and causing even more chaos than the Clone Wars had. Most likely, the galaxy would still be splintered by the time Luke and Leia came of age. I can't really see the Jedi being able to make a concerted move toward stability, at least under Obi-wan's reluctant leadership, until that point.
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GrandMasterKatarn
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
4/15 7:56pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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Emperor_Time posted:
Sector15 posted:
Emperor_Time posted:
[quote=Sector15][quote=Emperor_Time][quote=Sector15]Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
Actually it's Luke Skywalker must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Jacen in this book, skewered and dying on a Jedi saber.
I'd settle for both getting it if it got rid of Luke . Seriously I think I've heard every Luke Skywalker triumphs against all odds story I need to. I'm only in it for the bad guys.
If you add Leia and Han dying too then it a deal. [/quote]
We'll chuck Jaina and Ben in and have Solowalker kebab. [/quote]
A Solowalker kebab sounds fine with me. [/quote]
Ooh ooh ohh ... Can I have one, please? 
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Emperor_Time
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
4/15 8:06pm
Subject:
RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
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GrandMasterKatarn posted:
Emperor_Time posted:
Sector15 posted:
[quote=Emperor_Time][quote=Sector15][quote=Emperor_Time][quote=Sector15]Jacen Solo must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Luke in this book, skewered and dying on a Sith saber.
Actually it's Luke Skywalker must live. It would be a waste to kill him. I hope I get my favourite version of Jacen in this book, skewered and dying on a Jedi saber.
I'd settle for both getting it if it got rid of Luke . Seriously I think I've heard every Luke Skywalker triumphs against all odds story I need to. I'm only in it for the bad guys.
If you add Leia and Han dying too then it a deal. [/quote]
We'll chuck Jaina and Ben in and have Solowalker kebab. [/quote]
A Solowalker kebab sounds fine with me. [/quote]
Ooh ooh ohh ... Can I have one, please? [/quote]
Sure, you can have one.
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That Zayne is Shmi's ancestor theory for the win.
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