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Author	Topic: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
TalonXL Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/13 7:01am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	sigh Where to start with this. In regards to the ending not being warm an fuzzy thus its not Star Warsy... Episode I - Qui-Gon dies, Main bad guy not only gets away, but is in a huge position of power. Episode II - many Jedi die, Anakin gets his hand cut off, Clone Wars start, galaxy is plunged into chaos Episode III - TONS of Jedi die, Anakin turns dark, gets his limbs chopped off and almost immolated to death, twins are seperated and off to live with foster parents, Padme dies, Galaxy is ruled by Sith. Episode IV - Obi-Wan dies, Rebels win the day, but Vader gets away. Episode V - Luke gets his hand cut off, finds out Vader's his father, Han gets frozen and taken away by Boba Fett, it ends on such a downer. Episode VI - Yoda dies, many rebels and a bunch of muppets die, Vader gets redeemed only to die, but yes, the rebels do win the day. Looking at that, while yes, the end of the series ends on a high note, outside of maybe IV, what other Star Wars movie ends happy? Is it because the books almost always end happy that people are so uptight that it didn't go the way they thought it should and are now upset. Its the same argument most people had over the prequels. Furyan_Jedi_13 posted: I'm just sad that the happy-go-lucky boy from YJK who always played with animals is now dead. Can be changed post VI "I'm just sad that the happy-go-lucky boy from Episode I who always thought of helping others and won a pod race is now dead. -----signature----- "Leader, this is Three. Are you crazy? Acknowledge." "Three, Leader. That's affirmative." - Wes Janson & Wedge Antillies
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Furyan_Jedi_13 Registered: May '07	Date Posted: 5/13 7:17am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/13 7:18am (1 edits total) Edited By: Furyan_Jedi_13
	Looking at that, while yes, the end of the series ends on a high note, outside of maybe IV, what other Star Wars movie ends happy? Is it because the books almost always end happy that people are so uptight that it didn't go the way they thought it should and are now upset. Its the same argument most people had over the prequels. Hmm. Maybe. Still, it IS annoying and depressing. Or maybe I just need to lower my expectations. Can be changed post VI "I'm just sad that the happy-go-lucky boy from Episode I who always thought of helping others and won a pod race is now dead. Also true. But since I loved the YJK group, that still makes me sad. I mean, we all KNEW that Anakin Skywalker was gonna be a bad boy eventually! As for Jacen, well, I think they simply copied the whole example of his grandfather anyway.
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canadianjedimama Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 5/13 7:18am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	Jeff_Ferguson posted: Investing so much emotional attachment into your reading, to the point where you're far more critical than you need be, seems like a major deterrant to your enjoyment of your hobby. Huge QFT here! Has the EU turned out the way I wanted it to? HELL NO. Do I whine about it every chance I get? NO. Personally, the EU took a left turn from what I wanted when Luke and Mara didn't get together after TTT. Have I stopped reading or enjoying the books since? No, I've not stopped reading and have enjoyed them all to various degrees since. Was Invincible what I wanted? Or LOTF for that matter? Nope, not really. But it was a story that was, IMHO, told decently (even superbly in some parts). I read these books and embrace this fandom because it is an escape from everyday. I do it out of enjoyment. When the enjoyment stops, I'll stop. But seeing as SW has rocked my socks since I was five years old, I don't think I'll be stopping soon. I neither need nor expect anyone to share my views. shakes head And I don't understand why 75% of this thread is filled with posts from people swearing they aren't going to touch Invincible with a ten foot pole. It's daunting for someone who'd actually like to ask questions or discuss the book to plow through pages of e-moaning to get to the point. Just my two creds... CJM -----signature----- Lucky member of the Three Jagateers Jagateer of Imperial Knighthood Cade Skywalker in Swim Trunks.... Cade Brigade's Mistress of the Wardrobe of Hawtness
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 5/13 8:00am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	Jeff_Ferguson posted: Charlemagne19 posted: Honestly, I don't get why people can't appreciate a happy ending. I do. I don't intend this as any sort of attack, but rather just an observation --- the majority of posters here get mad when the post-ROTJ EU doesn't go the way they want it to. I might be a rarity, but I can accept SW stories as they are and appreciate all of the good things in them, while saying "Oh well" to the bad things, and that's even with all of the emotional investment I have in them. Then again, it may be because I enjoy the books more, and see more good than bad. Regardless, I believe that a lot of posters here are upset not because LOTF ended exactly as it did, but because it didn't end exactly the way they wanted it to. Is it really that difficult to distinguish between hopes and expectations? I for the most part appreciate the novels in the same way as you, Jeff. My problems with Invincible have nothing to do with an emotional investment in the book. In fact, disheartened by Invincible and its very abrupt unapologetic ending, (which I will maintain is the saddest EU book of all time) I picked up Solo Command moments later to reassure myself that SW books can be fun. I can understand anyone's problem with Invincible. The book has many problems. If it weren't the last book of a 2 year 9 book cycle it wouldn't be so bad. But...it was. And Invincible gives any Star Wars EU fan a handful of hopelessness. I mean who on Earth after reading Invincible is thinking, "Ooh. Wow. I just can't wait for this Millennium Falcon book." The whole thing feels like a pain in the EU. I invested what? $130 bucks in LOTF to end bleak, wonder-less, and near hopeless. Not even a Luke Skywalker with a soul left to reassure us the readers that this galaxy is a bit safer. Cause it isn't. It's as messed up as ever just like the "real world". I just don't buy SW to remind me of here. So I guess we all just suck it in and shell out $30 more bucks to find out the fallout of this series. And we'll all of course buy that book. -----signature----- “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
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TalonXL Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/13 8:09am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	Slightly off topic, but... Anyone got a clue as to why, on the day Invincibleis actually released, the banner now has pictures of Vader and "You Got Served!" up there, for just the lit forum? -----signature----- "Leader, this is Three. Are you crazy? Acknowledge." "Three, Leader. That's affirmative." - Wes Janson & Wedge Antillies
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 5/13 8:15am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/13 8:15am (1 edits total) Edited By: Manisphere
	TalonXL posted: Slightly off topic, but... Anyone got a clue as to why, on the day Invincibleis actually released, the banner now has pictures of Vader and "You Got Served!" up there, for just the lit forum? Yeah. I thought it was some "in thing" I just didn't get. I've seen it up on April Fools but never since. -----signature----- “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
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Poldon Registered: Jan '07	Date Posted: 5/13 8:15am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/13 8:16am (1 edits total) Edited By: Poldon
	Manisphere posted: I mean who on Earth after reading Invincible is thinking, "Ooh. Wow. I just can't wait for this Millennium Falcon book." raises hand I am. Just finished several hours ago, and that was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the blurb for MF. I actually like having my emotional involvement with the characters threatened, challenged, and otherwise toyed with. There was no reset. We don't have nine books of Sith followed immediately by "oh well, he's gone. Let's make the galaxy exactly the way it was when we got into this mess." It seemed to me that the people of the GFFA (at least this generation) are starting to learn that "war is hell." Anf after the Clone Wars/Galactic Civil War/YV War/Caedus's War, it's about time!
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Manisphere Registered: Aug '07	Date Posted: 5/13 8:26am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/13 8:26am (1 edits total) Edited By: Manisphere
	Poldon posted: Manisphere posted: I mean who on Earth after reading Invincible is thinking, "Ooh. Wow. I just can't wait for this Millennium Falcon book." raises hand I am. Just finished several hours ago, and that was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the blurb for MF. I actually like having my emotional involvement with the characters threatened, challenged, and otherwise toyed with. There was no reset. We don't have nine books of Sith followed immediately by "oh well, he's gone. Let's make the galaxy exactly the way it was when we got into this mess." It seemed to me that the people of the GFFA (at least this generation) are starting to learn that "war is hell." Anf after the Clone Wars/Galactic Civil War/YV War/Caedus's War, it's about time! I didn't have a problem with the story. Of course it's pointless to buy any fiction, especially SW fiction that isn't filled with constant jeopardy. I did go through 9 books in this series without any real catharsis in the last novel and that doesn't really fly with me. The story itself was fine. The writing was fine. I'll buy MF cause I love the EU even when it disappoints me. Which in this case it has. I wanted catharsis. -----signature----- “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
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GrandMasterKatarn Registered: Feb '08	Date Posted: 5/13 8:27am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	Charlemagne19 posted: GrandMasterKatarn posted: Charlemagne19 posted: When you become a Sith, you're destroyed by the Dark Side. Your theory has holes. Revan was NEVER destroyed, he was always true to himself no matter what the cause. The same can be said for Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus. Revan nearly destroyed the galaxy and wanted to enslave the universe. He was consumed more than most. Traya is just a madwoman. No no no. Revan was preparing the Republic for a threat in the unknown regions (possible the true sith?) He was not consumed. Traya was exiled but when the Jedi threatened one of her students, she came back and kicked their @$$es. -----signature----- Revan+Bane+Exile = Kyle Katarn "Expletive: Damn it, master, I am an assassination droid... not a dictionary!" - HK-47 "My first apprentice was a female Twi'lek named Jaden Korr" - Kyle Katarn
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vereor_lynas Registered: Mar '08	Date Posted: 5/13 8:46am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	my copy arrived today i'm impressed.. ordered it from amazon.. and i've got it in the UK earlier than some people in the US.. i already read the spoilers. but i did for revelation and i found that a much better book than most people did so.. hopefully i'll enjoy it.. off to read! laters
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Flowerlady Registered: Dec '05	Date Posted: 5/13 9:29am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/13 9:33am (1 edits total) Edited By: Flowerlady
	I’ve just finished Invincible. I was surprised when my local library got it in on Friday, and since I was the first in the queue, I got my hands on it before anyone else. Yay me! Anyway, I found this book actually one of the better books of the series, but, then, I’ve enjoyed LotF. I thought it concluded the series well. Sure, I think Mr. Denning could have expanded on some things, maybe brought in characters like Wedge and even Niathal. But when I think of this like a writer would, I think he did a great job narrowing the focus and keeping it mostly a Jaina-centric book. The taking out of Caedus: This book was about Jaina's journey as she realizes that she has to be the one to kill her brother. A journey made more painful and poignant by the jokes at the beginning of the chapters and the inserted “memories”. I do not think her decision to kill Jacen/Caedus makes her evil or bad in anyway. She thoroughly stayed in the light during both duels with him. She didn’t want to kill Jacen, she wanted to kill the Sith he had become, but, unlike her parents, particularly her father, she couldn’t separate the two, because she knew Caedus has Jacen’s face and his voice. And if she didn’t accept that Jacen was Caedus, he would easily kill her if she hesitated when the fight came. When that fight did come, Caedus was determined to kill her. Sure, he wanted to get away to warn Tenel Ka about the nanokiller, but I don’t think that made Caedus back into Jacen—at least not immediately. Caedus was very willing to kill Jania and gave her the fight of her life despite the arm he was missing. A fight which included almost sending her flying into the fusion insinuator he had been trying to dump Isolder’s body in after he cold-bloodily murdered him by snapping his neck. An act that he did—to protect Tenel Ka and Allana…in his mind. Do I think Caedus was redeemed in the end? I honestly think so. It’s not as clear as Vader’s redemption or even Tahiri’s, mainly because it was from Jaina’s POV, but I think he came back to himself just before Jaina stabbed him in the heart—only seconds before—and not in time for her to realize what had happened. I think Jacen realized that he was going to lose. But I think what made him hesitate that last second was that he finally realized what he had really become. And he reached out to the one person that still tied him to the person he used to be. He reached for Tenel Ka, and because of his love for and in his desire to save his daughter and lover, he became Jacen again. He knew Jaina would kill him. And he chose to die because he couldn’t live with what he had become. I agree with Charlemagne19 who believes Jacen was totally insane, not just a Sith. I agree that he didn’t have the stomach for Sithdom. He became a Sith for all the wrong reasons. He wanted to bring peace, but as he fell further and further into the Dark Side, he began to realize that the Dark Side could never bring peace, only misery—not only to himself, but to those he loved. That, to become a Sith who controlled the galaxy, he would have to sacrifice everything—including that which he set out to protect to begin with. And, in the end, it was that inability to sacrifice Tenel Ka and Allana’s lives that saved him. But it took his inability to stop it that saved him. Yes, you read that correctly. What saved him was his realizing that his lover and daughter were probability going to die because of his actions, but it was his imminent death that brought that realization. If he had been able to get to them in time, all that would have happened is Cadues thinking he was in deed invincible and, thus, the only one who could bring peace. Do I think Jacen’s life was a waste? No, I don’t. I think Jacen was doomed to fall since his capture by the Vong. It damaged him mentally and made him want to make sure the people he loved most, Tenel Ka and then Allana, never had to experience what he had. However, Jacen had also been a hero. He brought peace and he helped bring tolerance at the end of the Vong war. Even during the Killik war, he was trying to prevent a total galaxywide domination from the Dark Nest. It was his ego (hero complex, if you will) and his desire to save Allana that led him to the dark side. Do I think Luke was a weakling and made the wrong decision about not going after Caedus? No, I don’t. It was very clear in the book that Luke had seen himself fall to the dark side if he went after Caedus. As Saba confirmed, Luke became tainted when he killed Lumiya in vengeance. He would end killing Caedus for vengeance for his murder of Mara. Many have brought up his previous duels with Jacen, but remember those were all before he knew Jacen killed his wife. I think Luke showed incredible power in the Force by keeping Jacen’s attention away from Jaina. The Tragedy of Star Wars: The Fall of Anakin Skywalker vs. the Fall of Jacen Solo: I know many have said that LotF destroyed the SW story…How, exactly, has it done that? In my opinion, the worst tragedy of all was when a sweet, little slave boy, who saved a planet by flying into the belly of a battle ship when he was only ten, was turned into the monster Darth Vader all because he wanted to save the woman he loved and the galaxy he served, by being manipulated by a Sith Lord who he thought he could trust. I have to wonder how many of you would have hated SW if Lucas had done Anakin’s story first. And we would have not known the ending of the Prequels before they began, or that the OT even exited. If we would have watched Anakin Skywalker’s fall for the first time without knowing his son and daughter would save him and the galaxy he had helped the evil Palpatine to destroy, I think it would have been hard to accept and hard to find hope in the future at the end of the PT. We would have thought his life had been a waste, too. I think LotF is the same sort of story…it’s about the fall of a hero, but as with Anakin’s story, there is hope. Jacen’s hope is Allana and the peace that came to the galaxy after his death. In the end, his war did bring peace, by uniting the galaxy against him. In a way, Jacen did win, but had to sacrifice everything to do it. Daala? Sure, I’m not sure Daala is the leader I would’ve chosen, but we need to remember SW isn’t like our world. In our world, someone like Kyp Durron would never have been allowed to live after his fall (and most of you should know that I’m a huge Kyp fan, but the truth is the truth). But he’s only one example. Nor do I think someone like Pelleaon would have become Supreme Commander of the Galactic Alliance. Remember, he hadn’t always been the “sweet” Old Man of the Empire. There was a time he would have done anything to crush the New Republic…First with Thrawn and then with Daala. Now, as for Luke’s “Star Destroyer out of left field” as CMJ calls it—the “appointment” of Jag Fel as head of the Moffs and essentially Head of State of the Imperial Remnant: I think it was well played out by Mr. Denning, but I also think it could have been done differently. I agree that this was the easy way of doing it. And though, it came off believable in the context of the story, I do agree that Jag’s rise to eventual Emperordom could have made a very entertaining novel in of itself and could have been done just a little bit more believable. As for Allana’s transformation to Amelia: I think it was a smart move on Tenel Ka’s part. Especially since she knows it’s only a matter of time before Allana's paternity comes to light, and the Hapans wouldn’t wait a moment to kill her to prevent her from coming to the throne when it happens. Who the heck are Trista and Taryn? As I read the spoilers here, and even as I read the book knowing what would happen, I couldn’t stop thinking about how Allana’s “death” was going to work. Meaning, Tenel Ka is now heirless…right? Well, I don’t think she is. Nor do I think Trista and Taryn are her cousins…I think they are her half-sisters, making them the true heirs if anything happens to Tenel Ka or Allana, and the reason that they are “invisible”. I think they are Isolder’s daughters to his one-time bodyguard Astarta, who interestingly enough also has red hair. It will be interesting to see what happens now that they have been introduced to canon and obviously are totally loyal to Tenel Ka. But I do think Tenel Ka sacrificed, not only her custody of her daughter in her decision to give Allana to the Solos, she sacrificed Allana’s possibility of coming to the throne of Hapes. Zekk, where art thou? I wonder what happened to Zekk at the end and have to wonder more as to why Mr. Denning chose to do the MIA thing again with one of Jaina’s boys. I suppose we will have to wait to see what happens, because I don’t think he’s dead. And the two possibilities for his future that I see make for interesting speculation…which means more Fanfiction…Yay! Do I think this series was the worst thing since Jar Jar? No, I don’t. I’ve enjoyed LotF and I do not think it destroyed Star Wars. I will admit that I don’t think the Fett storyline had to be as elaborate as it was, and I didn’t particularly care for everything Ms. Traviss did, but in the end, I think they pulled out a fairly good story. My rating: 9 out of 10 for the book, 7 out of 10 for the series as a whole. Flowerlady -----signature----- Master to DanaeMariSkywalker, JediMasterArmada and PHGS_Weyr
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vereor_lynas Registered: Mar '08	Date Posted: 5/13 10:44am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	"fett always played the odds" does anyone else think that denning used this line to try and show how he's the opposite to jaina's family, particularly her father..
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Jeff_Ferguson Registered: May '06	Date Posted: 5/13 11:06am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	canadianjedimama posted: Was Invincible what I wanted? Or LOTF for that matter? Nope, not really. But it was a story that was, IMHO, told decently (even superbly in some parts). Here here! I think that there are better directions that the EU could have gone in place of LOTF, but I completely agree with you in that it was a story that was told well, even superbly at times. I think that it's necessary to completely separate predictions/hopes from expectations, else you become outraged when a series doesn't end the way you want it to. canadianjedimama posted: Has the EU turned out the way I wanted it to? HELL NO. Do I whine about it every chance I get? NO. Personally, the EU took a left turn from what I wanted when Luke and Mara didn't get together after TTT. Have I stopped reading or enjoying the books since? No, I've not stopped reading and have enjoyed them all to various degrees since. Very well said. If the EU went the way I wanted it to go, the post-ROTJ EU would currently focus on Baron Fel, the Empire of the Hand, Unknown Region Terrors, and Malinza Thanas would be one of the main heroes. If Invincible had gone the way I wanted it to go, a lot more loose ends would have been tied up, particularly regarding the Confederation, Denjax Teppler, Niathal, Tycho, etc. However, I read the book (and the entire series) for what they were, and didn't ignore the good things due to personal outrage. I like the unexpected better than the expected, personally. Manisphere posted: I for the most part appreciate the novels in the same way as you, Jeff. My problems with Invincible have nothing to do with an emotional investment in the book. In fact, disheartened by Invincible and its very abrupt unapologetic ending, (which I will maintain is the saddest EU book of all time) I picked up Solo Command moments later to reassure myself that SW books can be fun. I can understand anyone's problem with Invincible. The book has many problems. If it weren't the last book of a 2 year 9 book cycle it wouldn't be so bad. But...it was. And Invincible gives any Star Wars EU fan a handful of hopelessness. I mean who on Earth after reading Invincible is thinking, "Ooh. Wow. I just can't wait for this Millennium Falcon book." The whole thing feels like a pain in the EU. I invested what? $130 bucks in LOTF to end bleak, wonder-less, and near hopeless. Not even a Luke Skywalker with a soul left to reassure us the readers that this galaxy is a bit safer. Cause it isn't. It's as messed up as ever just like the "real world". I just don't buy SW to remind me of here. So I guess we all just suck it in and shell out $30 more bucks to find out the fallout of this series. And we'll all of course buy that book. That's a very fair statement. I don't expect everyone to have liked Invincible, and once a lot of the high emotions people have after finishing the book have settled down, I would love to discuss the book with everyone. But I'm definitely in agreement with Poldon in that I'm excited for Millennium Falcon. Why? It's written by James Luceno. I've liked all of his SW books save Dark Lord a good deal, and I look forward to what seems to be a romping fun adventure akin to Agents of Chaos. Luceno is also the continuity king, and I can't wait to see what he'll do with the galaxy in the wake of LOTF, tying up loose ends that Denning didn't and blazing new paths that none of us will expect. The ending of Invincible was similar to the ending of Return of the Jedi, in that it left a lot of what will come next up in the air. Remember that it was Luceno who put Jacen on his six-year sojourn, which I still think is one of the best plot devices of the EU ever. I'm actually looking forward to Millennium Falcon moreso than I was any of the LOTF books (and remember that I liked most of them ). Poldon posted: There was no reset. We don't have nine books of Sith followed immediately by "oh well, he's gone. Let's make the galaxy exactly the way it was when we got into this mess." It seemed to me that the people of the GFFA (at least this generation) are starting to learn that "war is hell." Anf after the Clone Wars/Galactic Civil War/YV War/Caedus's War, it's about time! Agreed. To me, Jaina's revelation that Jacen ultimately succeeded in making the galaxy a more peaceful place was the biggest indication that the series wasn't followed by a reset. Especially with Luceno writing the next book, I feel like the galaxy will be a more changed place than it was following the Yuuzhan Vong war. Flowerlady --- great observations and thoughts on the book. I definitely agree that Jacen's fall wasn't a waste, and I can't wait to see more on that played out in future books. I especially liked when you said... In a way, Jacen did win, but had to sacrifice everything to do it. -----signature----- Hey, I'm excited for Millennium Falcon!
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PointGiven Registered: Dec '06	Date Posted: 5/13 11:17am Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	I skipped ahead to Caedus's death scene to see what it was like. I don't know, I would've preferred to have it from Caedus's point of view to capture the true emotional impact of it and his frantic last words to Tenel Ka and Allana -----signature----- Proud Obama Campaign Worker. FIRED UP AND READY TO GO!!!
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Darth_Monopoly Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 5/13 12:29pm Subject: RE: The official Legacy of the Force: Invincible discussion thread (spoilers allowed)
	Well, I just finished it, and don't really feel like posting an in-depth analysis right now. What I will say is that I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I am very pleased with how the series turned out. 10/10 And looking forward to this MF novel, as well. -----signature----- Everything I tell you is a lie.
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