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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/24 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/24 12:55pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Darth_Carl99 posted:
Prove it...
I guess you missed the first line of my sig, huh?
I don't have to prove anything because it's an opinion of mine that canon has - thusfar - done nothing to dissuade. There is a significant difference between explaining why you think the way you do and trying to persuade others to come around to the same opinion. When you find the part of my post where I asked Arawn - or anyone - to agree with me, I'll give you a blueberry muffin.
That said, we are told - by Yoda - that there is no difference between moving a rock and a starship:
"No. No different; only different in your mind!"
Is he right? Who knows?! Maybe he's lying through his little off-white teeth. All I know is that I choose to believe him, since it makes the Force and what the Jedi can and cannot do with it make a great deal more sense to me.
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Darth_Carl99
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
4/24 1:25pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Sorry Ulicus, I never spotted that in your sig so I assumed you where stating it as fact, and I feel various EU and film sources have contradicted that claim.
So sorry again.
 Okay?
On a personal level I’ve always treated Yoda's statement to Luke, and similar things as "ideal situation" type things that would only apply if the wielder was in perfect tune with the force, (a la Jacen in TUF). Thus for all practical purposes it isn't actually true, but it is the ideal all Jedi should strive for.
I've certainly always believed that the better someone becomes at a given force power, the less energy it takes to get a given effect.
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Please treat everything expressed in this post as IMHO only. Any impreshion that this user is attempting to imply only their world veiw is right is unintentinol.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/24 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I just don't get why Yoda's "mental discipline" should have been in any way hampered by the Dooku fight.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
4/24 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darth_Carl99 posted:
I've certainly always believed that the better someone becomes at a given force power, the less energy it takes to get a given effect.
I think Luke Skywalker and the Black Hole of Coralskippers is an excellent example. Luke never thought about the fact that it weighed literally quadrillions of the mass of the Earth. Again, we're talking theres' literally nothing that can allow its weigh to be imagined.
Yet, Luke moves it because he doesn't think of it that way.
Also, from Dooku's memory, Dooku lifts up a several hundred pound potted plant because he's unaware it weighs a lot.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/24 5:48pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I just don't get why Yoda's "mental discipline" should have been in any way hampered by the Dooku fight.
Not his mental discipline so much as the fact that...he's distracted, the thing's about to crush his friend's and the chosen one, and he was just fighting one of his most promising students who has apparently become a Sith.
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/24 9:04pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Havac posted:
rhonderoo posted:
Are earlier force ghosts being retconned at all? (If there are any.) I ask this because there was a big deal made about Qui-Gon being the one to figure out how to connect with the living in the movies.
Not so far as I know. There will doubtless be some explanation sometime, but nobody's said, "Well, those ghosts don't canonically appear anymore," and no one is likely to, if Leland doesn't pull another Dagobah.
Dagobah?
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/24 9:05pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
And yet Yoda does, in fact, use such a blast of Force in other instances, particularly against Sidious and his minions in ROTS. But it's not the way of the Jedi, eh?
Blowing up the pillar wouldn't be smart. The chunks would just rain down on Anakin and Obi-Wan and destroy the whole purpose of saving them.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/24 11:30pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Havac posted:
rhonderoo posted:
Are earlier force ghosts being retconned at all? (If there are any.) I ask this because there was a big deal made about Qui-Gon being the one to figure out how to connect with the living in the movies.
Not so far as I know. There will doubtless be some explanation sometime, but nobody's said, "Well, those ghosts don't canonically appear anymore," and no one is likely to, if Leland doesn't pull another Dagobah.
I thought the explanation was that the Jedi lost track of the ability?
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
4/25 2:55am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
I just don't get why Yoda's "mental discipline" should have been in any way hampered by the Dooku fight.
Not his mental discipline so much as the fact that...he's distracted, the thing's about to crush his friend's and the chosen one, and he was just fighting one of his most promising students who has apparently become a Sith.
Dooku may also have been dampening his powers somehow, 'cloud of the dark side' and all that jazz. I'm mainly thinking in terms of the Darth Bane duel descriptions where they talk about Force users suppressing their opponents powers to some extent, so that could be another potential explanation (though, personally, 'worn out from fighting' has always been enough for me).
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/25 5:44am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Fact is, at this point, the idea is that the Sith bend the Force to their will while the Jedi let the Force do the work for them. The difference in the mind is that a Jedi has to surrender his will and desire to let the Force do what it needs to do. Perhaps, in AOTC, Yoda's desire to save Anakin and Obi-Wan from being squashed actually hampered him letting the Force do what it needed to do through him to get the job done. In other words, Yoda wasn't entirely consigned to the possibility that Anakin and Obi-Wan may die in that moment... so he couldn't just submit to the Force. Jedi trust in the Force, they may intend to block a blaster bolt... but the surrender to the Force and if that blaster bolt gets through, so be it.
I, Jedi has Corran realizing that is the Jedi approach to the Force; and it is in Allegiance. Furthermore, it's implied by both ANH and ESB. The Sith don't do that. One thing that's bothered me recently about LOTF is all this talk of a Jedi making an "exertion" in/on the Force. That shouldn't be the Jedi way, they don't have to exert themselves in most situations. It goes against their training.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/25 5:44am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Carl, don't worry about it.
Darky5K posted:
Dagobah?
He's referring to Leland's retconning away Yoda having ever been to Dagobah before he went into hiding there (as was documented in several sources, I believe) because George's script says that he observes "unfamiliar surroundings".
Therefore we have the strange situation of Yoda thinking: "Hey, I know an excellent hiding place! It's on this planet I've never been to before and know nothing about!"
I don't think Leland is terrible or anything and he's a great, friendly guy (at least as presented on the official boards) but I do think that the above is an example of the continuity people not doing their job properly. They should be trying to make everything work if at all possible, not giving up at the first hurdle of "unfamiliar surroundings" (which isn't even that much of a hurdle... Texas is unfamiliar to me, and I *live* on Earth)
Zorrixor posted:
Dooku may also have been dampening his powers somehow, 'cloud of the dark side' and all that jazz. I'm mainly thinking in terms of the Darth Bane duel descriptions where they talk about Force users suppressing their opponents powers to some extent, so that could be another potential explanation
I generally use that to explain why the Jedi can't pull off their "Clone Wars" stuff in the films, aye. 
Zorrixor posted:
(though, personally, 'worn out from fighting' has always been enough for me).
Me too, generally speaking.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/25 9:12pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
Fact is, at this point, the idea is that the Sith bend the Force to their will while the Jedi let the Force do the work for them. The difference in the mind is that a Jedi has to surrender his will and desire to let the Force do what it needs to do. Perhaps, in AOTC, Yoda's desire to save Anakin and Obi-Wan from being squashed actually hampered him letting the Force do what it needed to do through him to get the job done. In other words, Yoda wasn't entirely consigned to the possibility that Anakin and Obi-Wan may die in that moment... so he couldn't just submit to the Force. Jedi trust in the Force, they may intend to block a blaster bolt... but the surrender to the Force and if that blaster bolt gets through, so be it.
I, Jedi has Corran realizing that is the Jedi approach to the Force; and it is in Allegiance. Furthermore, it's implied by both ANH and ESB. The Sith don't do that. One thing that's bothered me recently about LOTF is all this talk of a Jedi making an "exertion" in/on the Force. That shouldn't be the Jedi way, they don't have to exert themselves in most situations. It goes against their training.
Problem is, that idea leads to a non-intervention attitude. That one doesn't need to do anything for themselves or for anyone else. We see that in reality when some people who believe in a god who then do nothing to help anyone or themselves and justify it by saying God will do it. Like reality, PEOPLE act through this higher power to bring forth the will of this higher power, not the other way around.
The Sith do neither of these to the fullest extent; rather their ideology is a self-centered one. It's a metaphor for the dark side of fundamentalism, a 'holier than thou' attitude that goes together with arrogance and a self-righteousness belief that they're entitled to everything and they are better than everyone. That's what the Sith are, just like the Vong were.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/25 9:24pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
And yet Yoda does, in fact, use such a blast of Force in other instances, particularly against Sidious and his minions in ROTS. But it's not the way of the Jedi, eh?
Blowing up the pillar wouldn't be smart. The chunks would just rain down on Anakin and Obi-Wan and destroy the whole purpose of saving them.
But Sidious' guards didn't blow up.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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KnightDawg
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
4/26 12:59am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
Fact is, at this point, the idea is that the Sith bend the Force to their will while the Jedi let the Force do the work for them. The difference in the mind is that a Jedi has to surrender his will and desire to let the Force do what it needs to do. Perhaps, in AOTC, Yoda's desire to save Anakin and Obi-Wan from being squashed actually hampered him letting the Force do what it needed to do through him to get the job done. In other words, Yoda wasn't entirely consigned to the possibility that Anakin and Obi-Wan may die in that moment... so he couldn't just submit to the Force. Jedi trust in the Force, they may intend to block a blaster bolt... but the surrender to the Force and if that blaster bolt gets through, so be it.
I, Jedi has Corran realizing that is the Jedi approach to the Force; and it is in Allegiance. Furthermore, it's implied by both ANH and ESB. The Sith don't do that. One thing that's bothered me recently about LOTF is all this talk of a Jedi making an "exertion" in/on the Force. That shouldn't be the Jedi way, they don't have to exert themselves in most situations. It goes against their training.
 Well said
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/26 8:21am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
Problem is, that idea leads to a non-intervention attitude. That one doesn't need to do anything for themselves or for anyone else. We see that in reality when some people who believe in a god who then do nothing to help anyone or themselves and justify it by saying God will do it. Like reality, PEOPLE act through this higher power to bring forth the will of this higher power, not the other way around.
The reason it's not the same at all is that the Jedi have a constant wireless signal directly to the Force.
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