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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/26 9:08am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/26 9:08am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Ulicus posted:
That said, we are told - by Yoda - that there is no difference between moving a rock and a starship:
"No. No different; only different in your mind!"
Consider the example of Dorsk 81. I'm sure Dorsk could move a rock fairly easily. When he moved a fleet of Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system, he got cooked like an overdone microwave burrito. The consequences were certainly different, for him.
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
4/26 10:01am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/26 11:10am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Zorrixor
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I see that as a bit like pulling a muscle. There may be some people who can lift cars with their bare hands but I'm sure if I did it I'd slip a disk and end up reeling around on the ground in excruciating agony. I assume what Dorsk 81 did was channel too much Force energy without the 'stamina' that comes from practice and knowing what you're doing.
The Secret Apprentice, dark side as he may be, doesn't burst into flames when dragging that Star Destroyer down. The difference there though is I presume the SA has much more training when he tries that than Dorsk had recieved. When Dorsk tried it, he basically fried his body since he hadn't done his 'excercises' or 'stretches' needed to prevent 'pulling a muscle'.
I don't think you necessarily need to be drawing on the dark side for the Force to wreck your body, the dark side clearly makes it more likely because it will more likely be in your mindset to go crazy. Since the Jedi teachings are all about control and restraint if you're trying to stick to the light its unlikely you would ever attempt what Dorsk did (presumably why we've only ever seen Dorsk do so), but I assume if you're still a youngling who doesn't know what you're doing that you're going to risk trashing your body regardless of whether or not you use the dark side.
At least, that's the way I work my head around Dorsk without thinking he was using the dark side. Like a body builder though, just because I would slip a disk doesn't mean Yoda would. Dorsk had to channel a whole ton of power because he didn't have the experience, whereas Yoda's belief in the Jedi teachings would be absolute, so he wouldn't think to draw on the Force more, since he would know he didn't need to.
Also, I daresay most Jedi would consider it 'wrong' even if they didn't label it dark. They usually promote not using the Force for frivilous things (such as Anakin's comment about Obi-Wan not liking the idea of him playing with his food at dinner) so I expect someone like Yoda, even if they theoretically could move a planet, still wouldn't because there would normally always be a less drastic method of achieving the same goal (like, rather than throw the Star Destroyers away, Dorsk could have deflected their fire instead). I see it as very much a case of just because you can play God doesn't mean you should.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/26 10:29am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Also, wasn't Dorsk channeling the energy of the other students? So there's that. Plus the fact that it doesn't seem like something anyone's actually ever done before, so it's not like it was tried and true and proven and well practiced. Plus the fact that pushing that many Star Destroyers that far away is precisely the sort of thing that one would probably not be able to wrap their mind around doing.
But ideally, lifting a planet is no different from lifting a rock.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/26 12:00pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/26 12:07pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Consider the example of Dorsk 81. I'm sure Dorsk could move a rock fairly easily. When he moved a fleet of Star Destroyers out of the Yavin system, he got cooked like an overdone microwave burrito. The consequences were certainly different, for him.
Ah, don't get me wrong, I'm not for one moment suggesting that one can't use super amounts of Force Energy to move star destroyers, I'm saying that there is no need to do so. The fact that Dorsk can't wrap his head around the fact that there's no fundamental difference between casting a fleet of Star Destroyers into next week and nudging a pebble is his own darn problem. 
The way Dorsk went about things is, basically, the wrong way. He chose the quick and easy path... insofar as getting the task accomplished, anyway.
BobaMatt posted:
Plus the fact that pushing that many Star Destroyers that far away is precisely the sort of thing that one would probably not be able to wrap their mind around doing.
Exactly.
Luke: I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.
Dorsk doesn't believe he can move the Star Destroyers without extra power, so he needs the extra power to do it.
If he had absolute faith in the power of the Force - as the Ideal Jedi(TM) does (and this is really an ideal, and I think it's unlikely that it could ever be fully realised, though some Jedi may come closer than others) - he'd be able to send them away with the flick of the wrist and no harm to his own person whatsoever.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
4/26 12:17pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus is correct here.
It's all a mental trick.
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Zorrixor
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
4/26 12:23pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/26 12:31pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Zorrixor
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Ulicus posted:
If he had absolute faith in the power of the Force - as the Ideal Jedi(TM) does (and this is really an ideal, and I think it's unlikely that it could ever be fully realised, though some Jedi may come closer than others) - he'd be able to send them away with the flick of the wrist and no harm to his own person whatsoever.
Ironically, this is why I want to believe Darth Ruin was crazy powerful. He was a guy supercharged on a totally warped Jedi Code. He may have been a Sith, but his Creed makes me think he was far more the Anti-Jedi sort of Sith than the Revanites.
I mean, a guy who believed he was the center of the universe? That's "Everything is one" taken to the extreme! Pure solipsism. That's the Jedi Ideal (TM) beaten up, crushed, chewed up, spat out, slammed through the trash compactor and butchered beyond recognition. I picture him as having absolutely no restrictions at all, being the true embodiment of "If I can think it, I can do it".
When you believe you are the universe you don't need to worry about whats possible and whats not. You aren't playing God, you are God.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/26 1:06pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Zorrixor posted:
Ironically, this is why I want to believe Darth Ruin was crazy powerful. He was a guy supercharged on a totally warped Jedi Code. He may have been a Sith, but his Creed makes me think he was far more the Anti-Jedi sort of Sith than the Revanites.
I mean, a guy who believed he was the center of the universe? That's "Everything is one" taken to the extreme! Pure solipsism. That's the Jedi Ideal (TM) beaten up, crushed, chewed up, spat out, slammed through the trash compactor and butchered beyond recognition. I picture him as having absolutely no restrictions at all, being the true embodiment of "If I can think it, I can do it".
When you believe you are the universe you don't need to worry about whats possible and whats not. You aren't playing God, you are God.
It almost makes you wonder if fifty minions taking him down would be enough. After all, they are all figments of his own consciousness, right? 
He decides whether they can take him down or not! 
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/26 1:18pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
Darky5K posted:
Problem is, that idea leads to a non-intervention attitude. That one doesn't need to do anything for themselves or for anyone else. We see that in reality when some people who believe in a god who then do nothing to help anyone or themselves and justify it by saying God will do it. Like reality, PEOPLE act through this higher power to bring forth the will of this higher power, not the other way around.
The reason it's not the same at all is that the Jedi have a constant wireless signal directly to the Force.
That and it's a mixture of a Jedi having an intention, and then letting the Force fulfill his intention as it will. Thing is, most Jedi are surrendered to that extent. The only Jedi we've seen be that surrendered to the will of the Force are Yoda and Obi-Wan in the OT... and Obi-Wan let himself be struck down with no real knowledge or concern apparently if Luke and Leia actually got off the DS. Then you've got spirit Obi-Wan and Yoda telling Luke to abandon his friends to whatever fate might be in store for them on Cloud City. Yoda lived on a bog world and died on a bog world. Neither of them was really all that interventionist... they told Luke the ideal was to be surrendered to the Force but also taught him skills he'd need to intervene in bad situations. However, Luke realized that if he let go his conscious self... but on the Millenium Falcon against the training remote, in the DS trench when he fired those proton torps down that exhaust port, and ultimately aboard the Millenium Falcon in Allegiance when manning a quad laser... he let the Force do the work. He had then intention of what he wanted done, the Force responded to that, and it guided him in doing it. This is the case when he's in the Wampa cave and trying to get his lightsaber back but that doesn't work until he calms his mind and lets the Force do the work.
It's not "whatever happens is the will of the Force" but more like... this needs to be done, now I'm going to let the Force act through me that it may be done in harmony with the will of the Force.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
4/26 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus posted:
He decides whether they can take him down or not!
Oddly, I'm reminded of Mage: The Ascension a roleplaying game. The game's conceit is that all human beings have unlimited potential to alter reality. However, all human beings are hamstrung by the fact that they don't BELIEVE this is the case in order to largely stay sane in the shared dream of all human beings.
Thus, they have to struggle with "I can move this boulder" vs. "The boulder weighs 800lbs, so I must exert this much force to move it."
Oddly, the Matrix allowed me to explain it to my player characters.
Friend: Okay, I don't get it.
Me: *pause* Okay, there is no spoon. That's what you must realize.
Friend: OH!
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/26 2:08pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/26 2:09pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Dawud786 posted:
The only Jedi we've seen be that surrendered to the will of the Force are Yoda and Obi-Wan in the OT...
Actually, I'd argue that Jacen, Ganner, Luke, and possibly now Kol have all achieved this surrender and one-ness more than Yoda and Obi-Wan could ever have dreamed. And, to tie this back to the former topic, when in this state of absolute connection Ganner did not tire or expend any effort in his usage of the Force.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/26 8:19pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
Dawud786 posted:
The only Jedi we've seen be that surrendered to the will of the Force are Yoda and Obi-Wan in the OT...
Actually, I'd argue that Jacen, Ganner, Luke, and possibly now Kol have all achieved this surrender and one-ness more than Yoda and Obi-Wan could ever have dreamed. And, to tie this back to the former topic, when in this state of absolute connection Ganner did not tire or expend any effort in his usage of the Force.
Well, Luke and Kol both, obviously, have appeared as Force spirits and thus have attained the same level of oneness that Obi-Wan and Yoda and Anakin did primarily because their bodies discorporated after/upon death. That's assuming Luke is actually dead in Legacy, of course.
Jacen, on the other hand, only attained a minor sort of oneness and it was momentary at that. A moment in which he realized "I'll never experience this again" which, I think, set the stage for his descent into the dark side. Jacen tasted what Yoda and Obi-Wan did, and has now gone the opposite direction in a vain pursuit of the experience and, I think, the power it gave him. If the guy was conscious enough in that moment to reflect that he'd never experience it again and would always be chasing it, then he wasn't surrendered to the Force. Remember, "Qui-Gon"/the Force tells Yoda it involves relinquishing one's sense of "self" completely. To realize, there is no self to cling to. Anyone that would argue Jacen managed with Yoda, Obi-wan, Qui-Gon, Luke, Kol, Arca Jeth, Ulic Qel-Droma and Andur Sunrider did is not taking into consideration the conversation that Yoda has with "Qui-Gon"/the Force at the end of the ROTS novelization.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/26 8:28pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
Here's a new idea; what if Anakin CAUSED the Force ghosts? Of course, we had Ulic and a few other redeemed spirits speak in the Old Republic era, but Anakin made it happen more often. His first act of evil against the Tuskens awoke Qui-Gon, which surprised Yoda. Then in the Clone Wars, Anakin spoke to Ulic's ghost to defeat the Dark Reaper.
Apparently, it was a new thing since Obi-Wan was surprised to hear of Qui-Gon speaking again. Then, when he destroyed the Sith and died, he being the Chosen One, broke this unawareness and loss of conscience and caused a wave of new awakenings.
Could this be part of the balance of the Force prophecy? Since we went on about Christ, think about how His rising gave the opportunity for eternal life.
I know I had this here earlier, but I want to take it a step further with what we were saying about the Sith. Since I said this about Anakin, what if, since the Sith manipulated the Force for their own evil doings, much like evil figures in real theology (Satan/Shaitan, demons, etc), and we even said that we don't know the affect this had on the Force itself, what if the above quote was part of it too? The result of this manipulation and belief that they were above the Force itself?
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/26 8:39pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
Darky5K posted:
Here's a new idea; what if Anakin CAUSED the Force ghosts? Of course, we had Ulic and a few other redeemed spirits speak in the Old Republic era, but Anakin made it happen more often. His first act of evil against the Tuskens awoke Qui-Gon, which surprised Yoda. Then in the Clone Wars, Anakin spoke to Ulic's ghost to defeat the Dark Reaper.
Apparently, it was a new thing since Obi-Wan was surprised to hear of Qui-Gon speaking again. Then, when he destroyed the Sith and died, he being the Chosen One, broke this unawareness and loss of conscience and caused a wave of new awakenings.
Could this be part of the balance of the Force prophecy? Since we went on about Christ, think about how His rising gave the opportunity for eternal life.
I know I had this here earlier, but I want to take it a step further with what we were saying about the Sith. Since I said this about Anakin, what if, since the Sith manipulated the Force for their own evil doings, much like evil figures in real theology (Satan/Shaitan, demons, etc), and we even said that we don't know the affect this had on the Force itself, what if the above quote was part of it too? The result of this manipulation and belief that they were above the Force itself?
It's not a "new thing" though. It was a lost thing. Arca Jeth discorporated upon death in 4,000 BBY. SO did Andur Sunrider(Nomi's husband). So did Ulic Qel-Droma after a decade of being cut off from the Force and exiled from the Republic in his shame for having become a Dark Lord of the Sith. Odan Ur, Jedi scholar and librarian, also discorporated. As did Vodo Siosk-Baas, Exar Kun's former Jedi Master. As did the previously mentioned Odan Ur's Jedi Master Ooroo in 5,000 BBY during the Great Hyperspace War with Naga Sadow's Sith Empire.
Anakin Skywalker didn't make Force spirits possible.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/27 5:32am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I'll maintain that Andur was "pulled through" by his deceased Jedi Master grandfather.
His disappearing never really made any sense whatsoever.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/27 6:11am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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^ Only if Uli gets pulled through, too.
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