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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/27 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Good point. It seems to imply not just hearing, but being able to interact with the voices/spirits.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
4/27 3:13pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Rogue Planet implies that Qui-Gon attempted to communicate with Anakin in a dream.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/27 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
It's not a "new thing" though. It was a lost thing. Arca Jeth discorporated upon death in 4,000 BBY. SO did Andur Sunrider(Nomi's husband). So did Ulic Qel-Droma after a decade of being cut off from the Force and exiled from the Republic in his shame for having become a Dark Lord of the Sith. Odan Ur, Jedi scholar and librarian, also discorporated. As did Vodo Siosk-Baas, Exar Kun's former Jedi Master. As did the previously mentioned Odan Ur's Jedi Master Ooroo in 5,000 BBY during the Great Hyperspace War with Naga Sadow's Sith Empire.
Anakin Skywalker didn't make Force spirits possible.
I'm saying maybe he made it possible for others. All, or most of these were published before we got that snippet from Yoda in ROTS. Even in the AOTC commentary, Lucas said the Dark Side was indeed more powerful. This changed of course when Anakin killed Sidious, but still. The balance of the Force and fulfillment of the prophecy set off a chain-reaction in the physical realm as well as in the Force.
Remember though about Ulic, maybe he was never really cut off from the Force. It all came back to the Exile in KOTOR 2. If the Force is surrounding and binding, how can it really be cut off by mere mortals, no matter how powerful they are?
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/27 5:41pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulic wasn't cut off from the Force so much as his Force-sensitivity was blocked. How do you not know this?
Anakin didn't make anything possible for Force spirits. It's a long standing tradition that had been lost to the Jedi Order by 33 BBY.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/27 6:49pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
Ulic wasn't cut off from the Force so much as his Force-sensitivity was blocked. How do you not know this?
Talkin' to me? Cuz I don't think non Force sensitives sublime often.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/27 11:37pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
Ulic wasn't cut off from the Force so much as his Force-sensitivity was blocked. How do you not know this?
Because I only know what has been said in the KOTOR game, Clone War and the New Chronology. Even if the sensitivity is cut off, how did the Exile regain her power, and what about Ulic then becoming a ghost, which surprised everyone since it was something Jedi Masters did? He had a heart of a Jedi, that's what was said, but how often are the Jedi wrong? Truthfully, they didn't know did they? If he couldn't touch the Force, how did it happen?
Unless it's something like the power of suggestion, you're told something and believe it, hence it becomes real.
As for Anakin, I only refer to 'others' as in non-Jedi who have been seen as Force spirits. As pointed out earlier, Qui-Gon tried to speak to Anakin several times before Yoda heard him.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/27 11:44pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
Because I only know what has been said in the KOTOR game, Clone War and the New Chronology. Even if the sensitivity is cut off, how did the Exile regain her power, and what about Ulic then becoming a ghost, which surprised everyone since it was something Jedi Masters did? He had a heart of a Jedi, that's what was said, but how often are the Jedi wrong? Truthfully, they didn't know did they? If he couldn't touch the Force, how did it happen?
We don't know how it happened, and that's what we're discussing. It's extremely unlikely that Ulic Qel-Droma would have regained Force sensitivity without his knowing it.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 2:08am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/28 2:17am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darky5K
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I just listened to the AOTC commentary, where Anakin slaughters the Tusken Raiders. Here, Lucas says the pain of Anakin and the Tuskens are actually so strong, it is actually echoing in the Force to the point that Yoda, in his deep meditation, hears for the first time, Qui-Gon's voice call out.
He goes on to say that before this, no one had ever really established contact with the departed. As he said, it would be ventured more into with ROTS, where we see Yoda mention this to Obi-Wan, who is also surprised. Now, if the technique was lost, wouldn't there possibly be some records of Ulic, (a great historical figure for both the Republic and the Jedi Order) his transformation, along with others who gave their lives and vanished at death, rather than the ability to speak from beyond?
Would you call this a Lucas retcon? Perhaps the Force ghost thing is a technique learned, however, a consciousness is still atained in the Force after death, hence why Lucas said what he did. This could be another case of his 'two universes' explanation. Rather than losing consciousness after death if not a ghost, maybe in the films and the history Lucas has made G-canon, one's consciousness is still there and intact.
Maybe, as I pointed out that other non-Jedi had become ghosts after the Battle of Endor, maybe the balance and fall of the Sith, who twisted the Force and probably hurt it, did SOMETHING to the afterlife itself. Like the spiritual realm and the physical realm were no longer barred by this wall of corruption.
Pointing out Ulic, maybe this technique only allowed the spirits to speak to the physical realm until the balance was brought, which destroyed evil and saved civilization itself. Grotrugga of the Nuns of G'aav'aar'oon in one story spoke to her disciples from the afterlife about sheltering the Rebels after Imperials killed her.
Maybe the vanishing is like how some prophets in Western theology were lifted up into Heaven, rather than through normal death. It was meant to teach something to the population at large. I'm just guessing.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 2:20am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
We don't know how it happened, and that's what we're discussing. It's extremely unlikely that Ulic Qel-Droma would have regained Force sensitivity without his knowing it.
Maybe his desire to undo the wrongings he did was enough for the Force itself to forgive him. Or maybe, power of suggestion like I said. Maybe he didn't know that he could still reach it if he believed. Maybe both.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/28 4:25am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/28 4:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Darky5K posted:
Even if the sensitivity is cut off, how did the Exile regain her power
It's explained reasonably late into the game.
The Exile was never truly "cut off", she instead carries the pain of everyone who died at Malachor with her. This created a psychic scream within her own spirit that deafens her to her own Force connection. She must therefore create new bonds with new individuals and "hear the Force, distantly" through them.
This is one of the reasons she is able to grow so powerful, so quickly.
What the game never explains, however, is why she is so stupid as to maybe believe that Kreia is telling the truth about the Jedi Council stripping the Force from her. I mean, I'm sure she'd have noticed when she lost her Force connection... and she didn't go see the Jedi Council until Revan had returned as Darth Revan, practically a year later.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
4/28 7:22am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
Dawud786 posted:
Ulic wasn't cut off from the Force so much as his Force-sensitivity was blocked. How do you not know this?
Because I only know what has been said in the KOTOR game, Clone War and the New Chronology. Even if the sensitivity is cut off, how did the Exile regain her power, and what about Ulic then becoming a ghost, which surprised everyone since it was something Jedi Masters did? He had a heart of a Jedi, that's what was said, but how often are the Jedi wrong? Truthfully, they didn't know did they? If he couldn't touch the Force, how did it happen?
Unless it's something like the power of suggestion, you're told something and believe it, hence it becomes real.
As for Anakin, I only refer to 'others' as in non-Jedi who have been seen as Force spirits. As pointed out earlier, Qui-Gon tried to speak to Anakin several times before Yoda heard him.
You need to do some research then. KOTOR, NEC and Clone Wars video game don't give you the whole picture. Go pick up the TOTJ omnibi and you will get the whole picture.
GL's commentary can only be taken so far, particularly when there's no refutation of prior Force spirits in the films themselves. GL often lives in his own world, and the point of the EU is the mesh as best it can with the films and GL's creative intent. Fact is, he made it seem like all Jedi died and disappeared then came back as spirits. You may as well be suggesting that GL's flub with "over a thousand generations" in ANH that made the Republic be 25,000 years old in the EU and in AOTC the "Republic that has stood a thousand" years retcons everything prior to Jedi vs Sith. That's over a decade of EU material and even recent EU material that would have to go because GL couldn't keep his own in-universe timeline straight between films. So no TOTJ, no KOTOR etc. The canon retcon is that the Force spirit thing was lost to the Jedi at some point prior to TPM and was re-discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn. My guess is the technique was lost during the New Sith Wars stretching from 2,000 BBY to 1,000 BBY.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/28 8:46am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
My guess is the technique was lost during the New Sith Wars stretching from 2,000 BBY to 1,000 BBY.
My guess is that it was probably lost during the Jedi Civil War, since it reduced the Jedi to only a hundred and then Nihilus promptly swollowed the rest.
It had probably existed in written form somewhere on Ossus, too, but hey... we all know what happened there.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 4:25pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus posted:
Darky5K posted:
Even if the sensitivity is cut off, how did the Exile regain her power
It's explained reasonably late into the game.
The Exile was never truly "cut off", she instead carries the pain of everyone who died at Malachor with her. This created a psychic scream within her own spirit that deafens her to her own Force connection. She must therefore create new bonds with new individuals and "hear the Force, distantly" through them.
This is one of the reasons she is able to grow so powerful, so quickly.
What the game never explains, however, is why she is so stupid as to maybe believe that Kreia is telling the truth about the Jedi Council stripping the Force from her. I mean, I'm sure she'd have noticed when she lost her Force connection... and she didn't go see the Jedi Council until Revan had returned as Darth Revan, practically a year later.
That's right. It's been years since I played KOTOR 2, and when I last did it was just so confusing as to what the hell they were talking about.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 4:39pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
You need to do some research then. KOTOR, NEC and Clone Wars video game don't give you the whole picture. Go pick up the TOTJ omnibi and you will get the whole picture.
GL's commentary can only be taken so far, particularly when there's no refutation of prior Force spirits in the films themselves. GL often lives in his own world, and the point of the EU is the mesh as best it can with the films and GL's creative intent. Fact is, he made it seem like all Jedi died and disappeared then came back as spirits. You may as well be suggesting that GL's flub with "over a thousand generations" in ANH that made the Republic be 25,000 years old in the EU and in AOTC the "Republic that has stood a thousand" years retcons everything prior to Jedi vs Sith. That's over a decade of EU material and even recent EU material that would have to go because GL couldn't keep his own in-universe timeline straight between films. So no TOTJ, no KOTOR etc. The canon retcon is that the Force spirit thing was lost to the Jedi at some point prior to TPM and was re-discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn. My guess is the technique was lost during the New Sith Wars stretching from 2,000 BBY to 1,000 BBY.
I get what you're saying about the Republic, but I'm just stating what Lucas said. My new thought is just what I said; the ability to disappear at death and be able to speak to the living as a spirit. It's not to retain consciousness, as from what I got from that snippet was that the deceased still had their consciousness. Despite this, however, we don't know how this technique was altered, if at all, by the Sith's fall at Endor and the balance brought.
But I believe you may be right though around the time this information on HOW to do this was lost during the New Sith Wars, not the information regarding the whole phenomena being lost.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/28 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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It's not the ability to talk to spirits that's recovered, it's the ability to retain your consciousness and become a spirit.
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