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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 7:41pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
It's not the ability to talk to spirits that's recovered, it's the ability to retain your consciousness and become a spirit.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. I believe you're right on the ability to become a ghost and speak to the living as Obi-Wan and others did, but I disagree on the 'losing consciousness' statement for the reasons I've already mentioned.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
4/28 7:44pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
BobaMatt posted:
It's not the ability to talk to spirits that's recovered, it's the ability to retain your consciousness and become a spirit.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. I believe you're right on the ability to become a ghost and speak to the living as Obi-Wan and others did, but I disagree on the 'losing consciousness' statement for the reasons I've already mentioned.
Yoda's thoughts in AotC novel: "But Qui-Gon was dead, one with the Force! It was not possible to retain consciousness in that state!"
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/28 8:15pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
BobaMatt posted:
It's not the ability to talk to spirits that's recovered, it's the ability to retain your consciousness and become a spirit.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. I believe you're right on the ability to become a ghost and speak to the living as Obi-Wan and others did, but I disagree on the 'losing consciousness' statement for the reasons I've already mentioned.
I mean...you can disagree, but it's pretty plainly stated.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 9:19pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus posted:
Yoda's thoughts in AotC novel: "But Qui-Gon was dead, one with the Force! It was not possible to retain consciousness in that state!"
But Yoda had been wrong on things before, as that quote shows. As said before, we've gotten many different views regarding the afterlife. Maybe it's a mix of all of our views and opinions. In all honesty, do we know what happens to us after death? We have our opinions and beliefs, sure, and some of us have had near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences, but in all honesty, even the believers of Heaven don't know 100% what the afterlife is really like unless they've seen it.
To me, my interpretation is you are conscious after death, partly because of what Lucas said in the commentary. As I said before, did Anakin's redemption and fulfilment of prophecy cause a 'conscious awakening' of the beings in the Force, who may have been unconscious before because of the Sith twisting it? Possibly, no canon to go with on it.
If everyone becomes unconscious after death and go to the same place, good and evil mean nothing if there is no source or meaning to it. When Anakin said 'you already have' when Luke said he needed to save him, that says to me, as a Sith, he would be damned after death.
Even in the novel, it can still be questioned; how many scenes did we read about that were altered or deleted, lines were never said in the film, or events in a scene were different? Case in point; Luke deflecting Palpatine's lightning for a short time.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/28 10:23pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
But Yoda had been wrong on things before, as that quote shows. As said before, we've gotten many different views regarding the afterlife. Maybe it's a mix of all of our views and opinions. In all honesty, do we know what happens to us after death? We have our opinions and beliefs, sure, and some of us have had near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences, but in all honesty, even the believers of Heaven don't know 100% what the afterlife is really like unless they've seen it.
Or unless they are constantly in contact with the Force, and then are suddenly able to talk to people who cross over that can tell them it's different. Oh wait. They are and do.
Darky5k posted:
To me, my interpretation is you are conscious after death, partly because of what Lucas said in the commentary. As I said before, did Anakin's redemption and fulfilment of prophecy cause a 'conscious awakening' of the beings in the Force, who may have been unconscious before because of the Sith twisting it? Possibly, no canon to go with onit.
There's canon against it, though. I can speculate that Anakin uses mint flavored toothpaste but that doesn't make it particularly valid.
Darky5k posted:
If everyone becomes unconscious after death and go to the same place, good and evil mean nothing if there is no source or meaning to it. When Anakin said 'you already have' when Luke said he needed to save him, that says to me, as a Sith, he would be damned after death.
That's a pretty Western idea. Many others wouldn't agree with this, especially because that which the good guys consider a good thing the bad guys consider terrible.
Darky5k posted:
Even in the novel, it can still be questioned; how many scenes did we read about that were altered or deleted, lines were never said in the film, or events in a scene were different? Case in point; Luke deflecting Palpatine's lightning for a short time.
So...you're advocating that we view your take on things as valid because all you have to do to have it make sense is...change canon? 
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 10:56pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/28 10:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darky5K
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BobaMatt posted:
Or unless they are constantly in contact with the Force, and then are suddenly able to talk to people who cross over that can tell them it's different. Oh wait. They are and do.
But despite this, we had Jedi with different viewpoints, like the Potentium and the Unifying Force, Qui-Gon and some Jedi with the Living Force, other Jedi followed the orthodox beliefs. What I'm saying is simply, different viewpoints tend to lead to different visions or ideas of what may lie on the other side.
The Sith were in contact with the Force, but we know how twisted and wrong they are/were. Keep in mind too, that Yoda said Vader was beyond redemption, as did Obi-Wan. They said the Dark Side was too seductive to have its hold broken once on that road.
BobaMatt posted:
There's canon against it, though. I can speculate that Anakin uses mint flavored toothpaste but that doesn't make it particularly valid.
So what do we go with then? I'm trying to use sources from the movies and other EU works too.
BobaMatt posted:
That's a pretty Western idea. Many others wouldn't agree with this, especially because that which the good guys consider a good thing the bad guys consider terrible.
This is true, however we already have Chaos as an established canon, which Palpatine and other Sith feared. Now where Chaos is and how it is different than the main Netherworld is part of this confusion that the EU has established over the years. Though it may be Western, some things have already been put in from Western theology; Anakin's birth, Order 66 being possibly connected to 666, Palpatine being the Devil/Grim Reaper, etc. Really, could we Palpatine being rewarded with a nice spot in the Netherworld alongside someone like Yoda or Mace Windu?
BobaMatt posted:
So...you're advocating that we view your take on things as valid because all you have to do to have it make sense is...change canon?
I advocate nothing but my own opinion. I never said my view was to be taken as canon, but we have two opposing viewpoints on the issue. Not to mention, if the movies are to be the main source of information, wouldn't some things in the novel be from an earlier draft, maybe? General Veers' death is a good example of what was in the novel, retconned by future sources saying he didn't die.
All I'm saying is my own belief as others did and put up things to back me up in my own opinion. If you have a different POV, that's fine.
Besides, I'm not the only one who changed EU canon. Lucas is the one who said Palpatine is never cloned and Luke doesn't get married. That retcons a lot right there. Unless we go with the alternate universes/timelines or whatever Lucas advocated.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
4/28 10:59pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/28 11:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Charlemagne19
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Darky5k posted:
This is true, however we already have Chaos as an established canon, which Palpatine and other Sith feared. Now where Chaos is and how it is different than the main Netherworld is part of this confusion that the EU has established over the years. Though it may be Western, some things have already been put in from Western theology; Anakin's birth, Order 66 being possibly connected to 666, Palpatine being the Devil/Grim Reaper, etc. Really, could we Palpatine being rewarded with a nice spot in the Netherworld alongside someone like Yoda or Mace Windu?
I agree with Darky5k. Star Wars' theology is a mixture of Western Judeo-Christian concepts with Eastern Buddhist/Taoist ones. It's probably why, beautiful thing that it is, it's also pretty internally inconsistent. Let's face it, the Force ALSO tries to incorporate science.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/28 11:02pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I agree with Darky5k. Star Wars' theology is a mixture of Western Judeo-Christian concepts with Eastern Buddhist/Taoist ones. It's probably why, beautiful thing that it is, it's also pretty internally inconsistent. Let's face it, the Force ALSO tries to incorporate science.
Some also argue that perhaps God, if God is real in your opinions and beliefs, that God works through science. Can we control everything? No.
Like I also said, maybe we're all right to a degree.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
4/28 11:06pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
I agree with Darky5k. Star Wars' theology is a mixture of Western Judeo-Christian concepts with Eastern Buddhist/Taoist ones. It's probably why, beautiful thing that it is, it's also pretty internally inconsistent. Let's face it, the Force ALSO tries to incorporate science.
Some also argue that perhaps God, if God is real in your opinions and beliefs, that God works through science. Can we control everything? No.
Like I also said, maybe we're all right to a degree.
I wasn't making a theology statement, merely a observation.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/28 11:21pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
BobaMatt posted:
There's canon against it, though. I can speculate that Anakin uses mint flavored toothpaste but that doesn't make it particularly valid.
So what do we go with then? I'm trying to use sources from the movies and other EU works too.
You just said there's no canon for you to go with. I'm saying if there's no canon to go with, and there's canon against, then the speculation is on shaky ground.
Darky5k posted:
This is true, however we already have Chaos as an established canon, which Palpatine and other Sith feared. Now where Chaos is and how it is different than the main Netherworld is part of this confusion that the EU has established over the years. Though it may be Western, some things have already been put in from Western theology; Anakin's birth, Order 66 being possibly connected to 666, Palpatine being the Devil/Grim Reaper, etc. Really, could we Palpatine being rewarded with a nice spot in the Netherworld alongside someone like Yoda or Mace Windu?
Losing all form and identity to merge with an amorphous energy field may be described as chaotic and undesirable by some...
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/29 12:40am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/29 1:03am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darky5K
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I wasn't making a theology statement, merely a observation.
I know, I was merely stating a real belief held by some that mix the two as Star Wars did with the spiritual aspects of the Force and the midicholorians (science aspect). Something to help this inconsistant problem, or to throw out an idea of how it really is.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
4/29 12:51am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
4/29 1:46am (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Darky5K
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BobaMatt posted:
You just said there's no canon for you to go with. I'm saying if there's no canon to go with, and there's canon against, then the speculation is on shaky ground.
No, I pointed out a few things to back up my opinion, at least I believed I did. Anakin's quote, Yoda mentioning a 'netherworld' in ROTS, Lucas' AOTC quote, the spirits of fallen Rebels at Endor, the Gamorrean nun, Dllr Nep and Herian I'ngre, Lak Sivrak, Dice Ibegon, etc.
When I said there's no canon, I mean there's not much canon to debunk it, as we've gotten different views and stories regarding the Netherworld.
BobaMatt posted:
Losing all form and identity to merge with an amorphous energy field may be described as chaotic and undesirable by some...
True, but I was describing Chaos as in the Sith's ultimate destination rather than the Netherworld where we saw others such as Denin and Villa or anyone in the Marvel comics. Which is why I was originally, before that last post, talking about another poster's idea that all sentient beings go to the same destination.
Otherwise, why would the Force make Anakin if everyone goes to the same peaceful place in the end, or everyone loses their minds anyway? What did Anakin mean then when said Luke had saved him? Saved him from damnation? If everyone loses themselves in an empty void in the end, it doesn't matter if you're Light or Dark, you're doomed either way.
It was mentioned earlier Qui-Gon tried to speak to Anakin in Rogue Planet. Out of curiosity, what happened, does anyone have any snippets? I don't have the book on me or anything.
Let's say I were to go theological again in comparing the Force. We know Lucas is a special case of canon source. What he says doesn't always retcon Old Republic EU, however, just reshapes it as another piece of the puzzle. Like Western theology, we have Satan (Palpatine) declare his throne will be above God, that Creation will be twisted by his own will.
The Sith do this very thing with the Force, and hence, the physical galaxy. They are the ones who rallied all the evils under their banner in one way or another. Both then have a Chosen One, to bring balance and restore the peace that was lost long ago. Western theology says that when the Messiah wins over Satan, things go back to what they should be in the natural order. It also says that when this happens, the barrier that separates us from the spiritual realm will be broken.
We got this piece from Lucas, that by destroying Palpatine and the Sith, evil is vanquished from the universe. Anakin was already put in this spot in TPM by Lucas, who goes on to say this event happens when Anakin, who, as I said earlier, was dead spiritually as Darth Vader. Another person by Obi-Wan and Padme's standards. He rose from the ashes and repented fully of the Dark Side on his own, something not many had done before.
Ulic was poisoned and drugged, while Revan had a mind wipe and remembered nothing of his old life. Bastilla wasn't as far gone as Vader. Different scenarios. In the New Chronology, it says Yoda had told of the prophecy, and that only the Chosen One can defeat the Dark Side completely.
Remember too that Lucas said Anakin vanished at death, consumed by his love for his children and redemption, which naturally allowed his becoming a ghost. However, The Rise and Fall of Darth vader says he needed Obi-Wan's help to be a ghost and just died.
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
5/5 8:48pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Okay, what about Hayden Christensen playing Anakin's ghost? Lucas said something about how your spirit is frozen in time when you turn to the Dark Side, so what about the Sith and Dark Jedi who die evil? Do they just vanish all together after death, and in a way, this is related to the Unifying Force theory?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/6 3:54pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Darky5K posted:
It was mentioned earlier Qui-Gon tried to speak to Anakin in Rogue Planet. Out of curiosity, what happened
Anakin dreamed of Qui-Gon; he recalled that in the dream Qui-Gon was trying to teach him something and had said that Obi-Wan was "so hard to talk to".
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/7 5:48pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 5:53pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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BobaMatt posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Check Yoda's effort to levitate the pillar in AOTC.
That's for dramatic tension.
The_OS posted:
Man, it takes a lot to impress kids today. Yoda lifts a multi-ton stone and metal pillar, and people are peeved that he breaks a sweat. Seriously, though, it does take effort to lift heavy masses by using the Force. It's not the same kind of effort required to stave off lower back pain when you're hefting furniture around, but rather a kind of meditative, internal cosmic kind of deal called concentration.
Unfortunately, meditative, internal cosmic kinds of deals don't really read well on the screen, so you have to put in the traditional grunts and the eye-squints to convey that impression. Watch The Empire Strikes Back closely. He really worked hard to lift that X-wing. Just like he worked really hard to move that pillar.
For those who can meditate on the Force and open themselves up to the true extent of its power, size truly does not matter. Achieving that kind of transcendental serenity after a kick-butt lightsaber duel, though, isn't exactly easy.
Of course, as we've established, the truly "ideal Jedi" in this context does not exist, so in practice there will be limitations.
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