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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 6:01pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 6:03pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The_OS posted:
Man, it takes a lot to impress kids today. Yoda lifts a multi-ton stone and metal pillar, and people are peeved that he breaks a sweat. Seriously, though, it does take effort to lift heavy masses by using the Force. It's not the same kind of effort required to stave off lower back pain when you're hefting furniture around, but rather a kind of meditative, internal cosmic kind of deal called concentration.
Unfortunately, meditative, internal cosmic kinds of deals don't really read well on the screen, so you have to put in the traditional grunts and the eye-squints to convey that impression. Watch The Empire Strikes Back closely. He really worked hard to lift that X-wing. Just like he worked really hard to move that pillar.
For those who can meditate on the Force and open themselves up to the true extent of its power, size truly does not matter. Achieving that kind of transcendental serenity after a kick-butt lightsaber duel, though, isn't exactly easy.
Of course, as we've established, the truly "ideal Jedi" in this context does not exist, so in practice there will be limitations.
Wait, where is that from? Doesn't that confirm what I/Matt were saying about the Force? 
It says it's a "kind of meditative, internal cosmic kind of deal called concentration" which is what we've been saying all along. Convincing yourself that logic doesn't apply is *hard*, as opposed to the quicker, easier and more seductive path that logic does apply. And the "true extent of its power" bit can easily be interpreted as "realising that the Force is so powerful you don't NEED a lot of it to do anything".
Coolness.
Colour me happy. 
(And, yes, there are limitations... but they're all mental  .)
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Man, it's great when a thread comes around. C'mon, everyone. Group hug. 
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/7 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 8:49pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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The Force is not merely mental powers or psionics. There is a component which involves the body. Therefore, since no Jedi has truly limitless physical potential, there are limitations. Why didn't Yoda apply "size matters not" when two Trade Federation landing craft were about to deposit a droid attack force on Kashyyyk?
Ulicus posted:
Convincing yourself that logic doesn't apply is *hard*
If the whole thing is figuring out that "logic doesn't apply", then why does Yoda have to figure this out every time he uses the Force even though he's been at this for nearly 900 years?
Is Yoda perhaps the slowest, most difficult learner of all time?
Shouldn't he have the utmost belief in the capabilities of the Force after all that time, especially if he's preaching it to others?
In other words, if every time he tries to lift something of X-wing size he's got to struggle because he has to wrap his mind around the concept of "the Force can do absolutely anything" all over again, does he really believe it himself?
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 8:46pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 8:47pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Why did he on Coruscant? "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." The Force is not concerned with the limitations of the flesh.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 8:49pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 8:53pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The Force is not merely mental powers or psionics. There is a component which involves the body. Therefore, since no Jedi has truly limitless physical potential, there are limitations.
And that would be true if a mere fraction of the Force's power didn't extend into the infinite.
Besides, your quote specifically states: "It's not the same kind of effort required to stave off lower back pain when you're hefting furniture around, but rather a kind of meditative, internal cosmic kind of deal called concentration."
My underscoring. Which implies that it's about getting yourself into the right frame of mind.
BobaMatt posted:
Why did he on Coruscant? "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." The Force is not concerned with the limitations of the flesh.
I think too much Force energy does tax the body.
"The flesh does not easily contain this great power"
It's just that there's no need for that amount of power within your body. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the "true extent of the Force's power"
(I know that's probably all you meant, I'm just reiterating. Because I like saying it. )
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/7 8:53pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
Why did he on Coruscant?
I'm going to go with: because it was a cartoon which exaggerated the abilities of the Jedi from what was depicted in the films?
But I don't really understand your question in-universe. Why did he? If we accept that the Force gave him the capability to do it, he did it because, uh, Coruscant was threatened by the droid army. Just like Kashyyyk was threatened by the droid army. You're the one assuming Yoda has the power to crash two TF landing ships into one another. If so, why did he not do this on Kashyyyk?
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 8:59pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
If so, why did he not do this on Kashyyyk?
Couldn't focus? Mind was troubled? Was dwelling on his old friend Dooku's death too much to be able to use the Force to its full potential? Sure, they're not great excuses... but it shows that excuses can be thought up.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:00pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 9:01pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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He didn't look troubled to me. The excuses don't work.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:01pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I tend to think it's a simple case of it being physically stressful because a Jedi without suitable meditation and thought THINKS its heavy out of reflex.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:09pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Me: *pause* Okay, there is no spoon. That's what you must realize.
Except there is a spoon. It is metal and shiny.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:10pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Probably "feels" heavy, too, because without the proper concentration you're not as able to move things.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:13pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
Me: *pause* Okay, there is no spoon. That's what you must realize.
Except there is a spoon. It is metal and shiny.
That is why you fail.
But yes, basically, Jedi percieve a reality that belongs to certain rules. You must "Unlearn" as Yoda says because you have to realize that all of the laws of physics do not apply with a Jedi Knight. Presumably a Jedi can fly like Neo once he realizes that he does not have to obey the law fo gravity. However, if he remembers how much he weighs for even a second then he probably will start falling.
Magic isn't supposed to make sense but in Star Wars it boils down to the fact that Jedi must free themselves of the constraints of reality without going utterly nutters.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:16pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 9:17pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
He didn't look troubled to me. The excuses don't work.
So because he didn't look like there was anything going on inside that mind of his, nothing was?  (Edit: God, I hate that emotion. It's so damn smug. Not trying to be smug.)
Nah, don't worry about it Arawn. I know you'll remain unconvinced by the position of Matt and I. That's cool.
Thanks for that snippet from the OS, regardless. It's got me further convinced that we're on the right track, even if it hasn't convinced you.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:24pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I'm not sure what the average lifespan of Yoda's species is... but let's say they are extremely long lived on principle. Yaddle was obviously a younger member of the species at 400+, so I'm going to guess that they probably have a longer period of learning. How old was Yoda when he was knighted? 100 or more? Same with Yaddle?
I just watched ESB recently, and Yoda doesn't appear nearly as strained(or really at all to my eye) from lifting Luke's X-Wing as he does in AOTC. He's not really working at it, he's letting the Force do the work. Wuwei as the Taoists would say. My guess is that in the Clone Wars micro-series during the battle of Coruscant Yoda's fresh(we don't actually see him do anything in combat prior to this) when he's pushing around that droid army as the landers.
In theory, a Jedi should have limitless power available for any given task primarily because they aren't excercising power so much as acting as conduits for the power of the Force. Instead of making the Force work, they let it work through them. Said it again and again. It's different with dark siders and Sith, which is why Sidious cloned himself so much. Why he felt he had to transfer his consciousness... and why his clones couldn't maintain themselves for even a remotely normal lifespan or a fraction of what Sidious himself lived in his original body. The body has a limited capacity for exertion on the Force... almost like making the Force work for you actually saps away your own vital Force. Which, of course, means Luke's taken a serious step backwards from his earliest realizations in his Jedi training since Troy Denning started writing Star Wars. What with Luke's body always getting so exhausted and all when he uses the Force. Star Wars needs to get back on track with this fundamental difference between Jedi and Sith/dark siders.
For the Jedi, Force-use should be more akin to Reiki where the Jedi acts as a conduit for the power of the Force that does the work it needs to do and should act as a healing agent within the Jedi him/herself simultaneously just by the very nature of the light side of the Force. It's letting the Force be in control. Sith and dark siders, on the other hand, are obviously out to be in control. Of the Force, of others, of the universe.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:26pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/7 9:30pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Presumably a Jedi can fly like Neo once he realizes that he does not have to obey the law fo gravity. However, if he remembers how much he weighs for even a second then he probably will start falling.
It's extremely odd, then, that we see no Jedi flying in the entire saga. That whole part about not having to obey the law of gravity seems to be real hard to remember for some reason. Maybe they could write it down on their shirt sleeve somewhere, perhaps? And if we must use a Matrix analogy, did Neo have to relearn how to fly every time?
A Jedi can fly... ( drum roll ) if the Jedi's species has the power of flight.
TA-DA! 
Dawud786 posted:
My guess is that in the Clone Wars micro-series during the battle of Coruscant Yoda's fresh(we don't actually see him do anything in combat prior to this) when he's pushing around that droid army as the landers.
He's fresh on Kashyyyk too, but he doesn't even consider it. He allowed all those Wookiees to be killed. What a jerk.
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