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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:44pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
He didn't look troubled to me. The excuses don't work.
So because he didn't look like there was anything going on inside that mind of his, nothing was?  (Edit: God, I hate that emotion. It's so damn smug. Not trying to be smug.)
Nah, don't worry about it Arawn. I know you'll remain unconvinced by the position of Matt and I. That's cool. 
Thanks for that snippet from the OS, regardless. It's got me further convinced that we're on the right track, even if it hasn't convinced you. 
Yeah. To be honest I'm confused as to what in that snippet from the OS can be interpreted as disagreeing with our POV.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:48pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
It's extremely odd, then, that we see no Jedi flying in the entire saga. That whole part about not having to obey the law of gravity seems to be real hard to remember for some reason. Maybe they could write it down on their shirt sleeve somewhere, perhaps? And if we must use a Matrix analogy, did Neo have to relearn how to fly every time?
A Jedi can fly... ( drum roll ) if the Jedi's species has the power of flight.
We've seen Jedi fly a few times.
A Courtship of Princess Leia, Mace Windu in the Clone Wars cartoon, and it's also a Moderate Difficulty in the RPG for Telekinesis. We've also seen it in Fan Art.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:55pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Fan art does not strike me as a particularly credible source, you know.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 9:57pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Havac posted:
Fan art does not strike me as a particularly credible source, you know.
Sorry, I meant to say official art.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 10:15pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Don't forget Dooku. It's also apparently something you can learn from Fosh Jedi in the RPG?
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/8 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/8 11:28am (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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When did Dooku ever fly?
Charlemagne19 posted:
Mace Windu in the Clone Wars cartoon
That wasn't flying. 
BobaMatt posted:
To be honest I'm confused as to what in that snippet from the OS can be interpreted as disagreeing with our POV.
The_OS posted:
Seriously, though, it does take effort to lift heavy masses by using the Force.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/8 1:52pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
When did Dooku ever fly?
Clone Wars, on Rattatak. Either that, or it was an extremely well controlled fall.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
Mace Windu in the Clone Wars cartoon
That wasn't flying.
What was it then? What's the difference between flying an a Force Jump when the jump is for at least a mile?
Arawn_Fenn posted:
BobaMatt posted:
To be honest I'm confused as to what in that snippet from the OS can be interpreted as disagreeing with our POV.
The_OS posted:
Seriously, though, it does take effort to lift heavy masses by using the Force.
What's "OS" again?
Honestly, the principle of Jedi training is that the Force's power is unlimited and a Jedi need only let the Force do the work. It would take an extremely spiritually accomplished individual to let the Force do it's thing when you're convinced it cannot be done. And, there's a world of difference between knowing intellectually that the Force has an unlimited wellspring of power to accomplish anything and actually having gnosis of it. In theory, no effort should need be made on the Jedi's part... in practice, it doesn't always pan out. That doesn't mean the metaphysical theory is wrong... it means that Jedi don't always attain to their ideals. Sith do, because in theory and in practice they make the Force do what they want it to. And it has consequences.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/8 6:17pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Jedi also make the Force do what they want it to.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/8 6:23pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The_OS posted:
Seriously, though, it does take effort to lift heavy masses by using the Force.
It does. I don't think either Matt or myself are disputing that.
Nor has anyone ever said that the masses aren't heavy. Just that their heaviness means nothing to the Force. It only means something to the mind of the one moving it.
The_OS posted:
It's not the same kind of effort required to stave off lower back pain when you're hefting furniture around, but rather a kind of meditative, internal cosmic kind of deal called concentration.
It's specifically said to be mental effort. I don't see any reason to give "effort" a definition in one place of the extract only to then have "effort" mean something entirely different in another part.
Oh well, nevermind.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/8 6:32pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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You were saying it takes no more effort to move an X-Wing than it does to move a pebble. The quote specifically says that it takes effort to move heavy objects.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/8 6:37pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/8 6:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Right. So, taking into account the definition of effort given by the snippet from the OS, I say again that there's nothing in there that doesn't line up 100% with what me and Ulic are saying, as we both acknowledged that it's a tougher mental exercise to lift something big and heavy, but that it's just that: a mental exercise. "No. No different. Only different in your mind."
Just...saying.
Also, I think what Mace Windu did on Dantooine definitely qualifies as the power Force Flight.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/8 6:47pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/8 6:50pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Dawud786 posted:
It takes no more effort to move the ship than the stone.
The above is really what that quote contests. And your position was that Yoda struggles for "dramatic tension"; I don't think that suffices as an in-universe explanation.
The 60% figure has mysteriously disappeared! 
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/8 6:54pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
You were saying it takes no more effort to move an X-Wing than it does to move a pebble. The quote specifically says that it takes effort to move heavy objects.
Naw. What Matt and I are saying (as he's just pointed out above me, so I'm not sure why I'm reiterating. I guess I like being redundant) is that it takes no more *Force energy* to move an X-Wing than it does a pebble.
Yoda: No. No different. Only different in your mind.
So, yes, there is a difference. It's just not different to the Force itself. A Jedi that totally "freed their mind" wouldn't have any trouble, sure, but no-one can ever properly "unlearn what they have learned" and so the mental effort remains. People just get better at convincing themselves.
It takes effort to move heavy objects because you've got to get your mind in the position where it doesn't believe there's any difference between moving a mountain and a molehill. That's going to take serious concentration... as the OS says.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/8 6:58pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
Also, I think what Mace Windu did on Dantooine definitely qualifies as the power Force Flight.
You see the part where he came back down? That's the difference. Jedi don't fly via the Force.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/8 7:11pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
And your position was that Yoda struggles for "dramatic tension"; I don't think that suffices as an in-universe explanation.
Unfortunately for you, the clip you posted agrees with Uli.
The_OS posted:
Yoda lifts a multi-ton stone and metal pillar, and people are peeved that he breaks a sweat. Seriously, though, it does take effort to lift heavy masses by using the Force. It's not the same kind of effort required to stave off lower back pain when you're hefting furniture around, but rather a kind of meditative, internal cosmic kind of deal called concentration.
Unfortunately, meditative, internal cosmic kinds of deals don't really read well on the screen, so you have to put in the traditional grunts and the eye-squints to convey that impression. Watch The Empire Strikes Back closely. He really worked hard to lift that X-wing. Just like he worked really hard to move that pillar.
Emphasis mine. The first paragraph clarifies that there's no physical strain or difference, and then the second not only baldly states that the visible, apparently physical strain shown on screen is there for dramatic effect, but then draws a parallel between what Yoda does there and what he does when he's lifting the X-Wing, where he shows no visible strain or concern whatsoever because of, again, the dramatic needs of the scene.
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