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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/8 7:26pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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That still does not make "dramatic effect" work as an in-universe explanation.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/8 7:35pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Also, I think what Mace Windu did on Dantooine definitely qualifies as the power Force Flight.
You see the part where he came back down? That's the difference. Jedi don't fly via the Force.
So unless you stay in the air forever, you're not flying?
Mara floats herself across an open area in Betrayal for a good distance. What's that if not flight?
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/8 7:36pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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No, but "dramatic effect" negates the need for an in-universe explanation. He states, right there, that the only reason he's shown grunting is so that the audience understands, visually, that there's an effort of some sort being expended. He states that this effort is not a physically taxing one and would not actually necessitate grunting, but it's there for...dramatic effect.
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:04pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Havac posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Also, I think what Mace Windu did on Dantooine definitely qualifies as the power Force Flight.
You see the part where he came back down? That's the difference. Jedi don't fly via the Force.
So unless you stay in the air forever, you're not flying?
Mara floats herself across an open area in Betrayal for a good distance. What's that if not flight?
Something not really in line with the films, perhaps?
You're not flying when you do a leap or a glide and gravity is inexorably bringing you back down at some speed.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:14pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I think the "flight" part deals with the immense distance covered before he lets himself come back down.
It's just levitation, but...higher.
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/8 8:20pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Something not really in line with the films, perhaps?
You're not flying when you do a leap or a glide and gravity is inexorably bringing you back down at some speed.
Mara floats herself across an open space. There's no gravity pulling her down.
What do the Jedi have to do before it's flight, flap their arms? Strike a Superman pose?
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Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
5/8 10:21pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/8 10:24pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darky5K
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Ulicus posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
If so, why did he not do this on Kashyyyk?
Couldn't focus? Mind was troubled? Was dwelling on his old friend Dooku's death too much to be able to use the Force to its full potential? Sure, they're not great excuses... but it shows that excuses can be thought up. 
I'd like to say the Dark Side was clouding everything too much. Especially with Order 66 around the corner.
That, and I would assume since there was an out-of-control battle, it's kind of hard to focus on EVERYTHING.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/9 2:48pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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The out-of-control battle had not started yet, and I highly doubt Order 66 was somehow traveling back in time and clouding the Force further. 
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/9 2:52pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I don't think "Why didn't he do that, then, huh?" is a good argument against standing canon.
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
5/9 10:58pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The out-of-control battle had not started yet, and I highly doubt Order 66 was somehow traveling back in time and clouding the Force further.
Palpatine was planning ahead of time, and knew the endgame was now. Mace Windu even noted the Dark Side was getting thicker, even after Dooku was killed and Grevious on the run. Because they weren't the true threat.
I've got nothing else anyway. So, don't rain on the parade 
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/10 10:03am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/10 10:29am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dawud786
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Jedi also make the Force do what they want it to.
Read again. The fundamental difference between Jedi and dark siders/Sith is their entire approach to the Force.
View ANH again too. The Jedi philosophy is to have an intent, but let the Force do what it will with the intent. Sith have an entirely different approach.
Which is summed up in Sidious' musing on the Force in Shadow Hunter... The Jedi see the Force as an end in itself, and the Sith see it as a means to the end: power. Then, of course, there is Darth Krayt speaking of bending the Force to his will, while the Jedi talk about serving the will of the Force.
"Force-use" is different for Jedi and Sith, Sith are users of the Force... while Jedi are used by the Force.
Also, if Mace Windu's long flight from seismic tank to a plateau on Dantooine doesn't qualify as flight because he lands... well, I suppose you say Superman doesn't fly because he lands as well. Let's face it, there comes a point when a Force Jump is no longer a Force-enhanced jump... but flight. Height and distance have to qualify and on Dantooine that was far more than a Force Jump.
Another thing, haven't you ever contorted you face in concentration? You've never narrowed your eyes and or furrowed your brow when working on a particularly troubling math problem? Hell, I know that when I'm walking a ba gua circle or even sometimes in meditation I end up creating tension in my face and body because of working to hard at concentrating. You become physically spent quicker when doing such things than if you stop putting even so much mental effort into something. If you tell yourself something is going to be hard then it will be harder if you weren't. That's sort of the thesis in the chi arts of China... the difference between, for instance, the use of power and force in Shaolin kung fu and Tai Chi Chuan is relaxation for the strike. Not countering force with force, and all that. That's precisely what's going on with the Jedi. You can shout to try to force more energy into it, or you can just relax the energy through. You'll get the same results, but one will be less taxing. It's all dependent on training.
Watch that ESB scene again http://youtube.com/watch?v=g-zD-RohzNY
Yoda's not even actually straining there. He gathers his concentration, and then RELAXES into the feat. Luke, on the other hand, is trembling and trying to force the Force. All the while, convinced it cannot be done.
Then here, Yoda's fights from AOTC and ROTS: http://youtube.com/watch?v=IRd9PGmAQUE&feature=related
Yoda works harder at lesser things in AOTC than he does on the X-Wing, and harder than he does on the Senate pod in ROTS!
I'll grant, the contradictions between films can leave one with the wrong impression... but quite frankly, the physical portrayal of strain means almost nothing. It's not like the act of moving an object with the Force causes one to excercise the muscles to the point of it causing strain. It's the act of mental strain that causes physical strain... as is true in real life anyways... but the cheif lessons of Yoda and Obi-Wan to Luke are to LET GO OF THE CONSCIOUS SELF. Let go of the the mind. That's crucial to our understanding of what's going on here. Even Qui-Gon speaks of quieting the mind that a Jedi might know the will of the Force... and this bears out in actions and feats as well. Only when Luke let go did he succeed in blocking the bolts from the training remote.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/10 11:39am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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BobaMatt posted:
I don't think "Why didn't he do that, then, huh?" is a good argument against standing canon.
I do. 
dawud786 posted:
View ANH again too. The Jedi philosophy is to have an intent, but let the Force do what it will with the intent. Sith have an entirely different approach.
Which is summed up in Sidious' musing on the Force in Shadow Hunter... The Jedi see the Force as an end in itself, and the Sith see it as a means to the end: power. Then, of course, there is Darth Krayt speaking of bending the Force to his will, while the Jedi talk about serving the will of the Force.
"Force-use" is different for Jedi and Sith, Sith are users of the Force... while Jedi are used by the Force.
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."
This "Jedi don't use the Force" thing is starting to look like the third great pillar of gross EU oversimplification. In a macro sense, it's a meaningful statement, if parsed to refer to differing attitudes regarding the will of the Force, but you're taking it too far.
In the films, the Jedi use the Force, just like the Sith do.
"Use the Force, Luke."
"[...] our ability to use the Force has diminished."
Et cetera.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/10 11:37am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Well clearly, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't prove anything except that maybe Yoda was being a jerk to the Wookiees, since we know he can and has messed around with precisely the kind of power you're talking about in other situations.
That I don't punch people in the face at my whimsy is not proof that I'm incapable of doing so, particularly if there's biological and anecdotal evidence that I can.
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:41am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I think what we have here is a conflict, and ROTS wins because ROTS is a film in the saga and thus higher in canon than the 2D cartoon.
I just don't buy "Yoda was being a jerk to the Wookiees". 
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:47am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I think what we have here is a conflict, and ROTS wins because ROTS is a film in the saga and thus higher in canon than the 2D cartoon.
Thing is, there is no conflict, and that's what I'm saying. Yoda's words to Luke, and pretty much everything else we have learned about the Force, including the snippet from the official site that you posted, indicate that one must unlearn what he has learned and that size matters not. That Yoda doesn't chuck landers around doesn't mean that's not true, it's...a plothole...or a worry that the audience wouldn't buy it...or part of the Republic's plan...or the fact that doing that wouldn't really accomplish much in the long run, not to mention it would make the movie shorter.
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