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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:57am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Yoda had a migraine.
Solved.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 1:16pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
there is no conflict
You know, I once saw a movie where someone said that... but it turned out there was conflict after all. 
BobaMatt posted:
it's...a plothole...
Only in terms of including the cartoon into the same canon as the films.
Consider the fact that the 3D cartoon has been specifically cited to be G-canon ( unlike the 2D cartoon ), and the 3D cartoon shows Force use commensurate with that seen in the films.
BobaMatt posted:
or a worry that the audience wouldn't buy it...
I wonder why the audience wouldn't buy it? Also, the feelings of the audience don't make for good in-universe rationale.
BobaMatt posted:
or part of the Republic's plan...
How would it be part of the Republic's plan?
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/10 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
I think what we have here is a conflict, and ROTS wins because ROTS is a film in the saga and thus higher in canon than the 2D cartoon.
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
Namely, the failure to communicate the idea that "my preferred interpretation of the films means that canon can't be canon anymore" isn't an argument that will fly in Lit. If that's your personal canon, whatever. But you can't argue canon here.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/10 5:22pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
BobaMatt posted:
I don't think "Why didn't he do that, then, huh?" is a good argument against standing canon.
I do.
dawud786 posted:
View ANH again too. The Jedi philosophy is to have an intent, but let the Force do what it will with the intent. Sith have an entirely different approach.
Which is summed up in Sidious' musing on the Force in Shadow Hunter... The Jedi see the Force as an end in itself, and the Sith see it as a means to the end: power. Then, of course, there is Darth Krayt speaking of bending the Force to his will, while the Jedi talk about serving the will of the Force.
"Force-use" is different for Jedi and Sith, Sith are users of the Force... while Jedi are used by the Force.
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."
This "Jedi don't use the Force" thing is starting to look like the third great pillar of gross EU oversimplification. In a macro sense, it's a meaningful statement, if parsed to refer to differing attitudes regarding the will of the Force, but you're taking it too far.
In the films, the Jedi use the Force, just like the Sith do.
"Use the Force, Luke."
"[...] our ability to use the Force has diminished."
Et cetera.
Third great pillar of EU oversimplification or not, it's there. The Jedi have a collaborative relationship with the Force... they have an intention and the Force works towards fulfilling the intention in a natural way. The Sith, on the other hand, force the Force to work how they want it to work... perhaps even to achieve the same end that the Jedi are seeking. So the way a Jedi lifts a rock and the way a Sith lifts a rock is going to be different. The way Sidious would lift Vader's TIE is different from the way Yoda lifts Luke's X-Wing. It looks much the same, but the method of approach is different. And it's not just the emotion put into it.
I'm not saying the Jedi are automatons for the Force to use... but they aren't making the Force do something either. Luke wants his lightsaber, so he makes the intention in the Force to retrieve it and the Force responds in a certain way to bring it to him. Vader, on the other hand, would be more like making the Force do that particular feat in a certain way and it may not be the most natural way. I'm infering it, sure, but it makes sense from all that I've read. More sense than thinking there's not a fundamental difference. The Jedi ideal is to have an intention, and let the Force work in the most natural way. Like I have an intention to throw a punch, but being trained in the internal martial arts to let my body remain relaxed and take the most natural of musclo-skeletal alignments I'm going to be using less effort to achieve the same result as a martial artist who is trained in the hard/external martial arts who tenses up when he throws a punch. A Jedi can do both, its the difference between seeing the Force as a tool to be used as a means to an end versus having a reverence for the Force and seeing it as the end in Itself. Those that have viewed the Force as a means to an end are more often than not the Jedi that fall to the Dark Side. Even Jacen Solo, who was supposed to have seen the Force as an end in Itself actually came to use the Force as more of a tool since Traitor and look where he is. The Light Side, like the internal martial arts, is a more long and arduous road to travel for a certain end; while the Dark Side, like the external martial arts, is quicker and easier in comparison.
As for Yoda's crazy Force feats in CW... it stands as canon until said otherwise. As far as I'm aware there's no official position that those toons are exaggerated depictions but the events depicted are canon. They're C-canon just like novels, comics and video games. If you're going to render the depiction of Force-use in that non-canon because the films don't depict the same time of stuff in similar situations you're going to have to render much of the Force-use in many of the novels non-canon as well. Luke's done some insane stuff in the novels never seen in the movies. It's canon, though, because those things remain within the realm of conceptual possibility with the Force and how the only restriction on things on could do lay within the mind of the Force-user theoretically. Perhaps not practically all the time, but theoretically.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/10 9:38pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Only in terms of including the cartoon into the same canon as the films.
No, actually, that's only secondary on my list. Primary is everything Yoda says about the power of the Force and lifting a rock being no different from lifting an X-wing and the SA levelling a Star Destroyer and the snippet from the OS that explicitly states there's no physical difference.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/11 6:12am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Only in terms of including the cartoon into the same canon as the films.
No, actually, that's only secondary on my list. Primary is everything Yoda says about the power of the Force and lifting a rock being no different from lifting an X-wing and the SA levelling a Star Destroyer and the snippet from the OS that explicitly states there's no physical difference.
Which is again stated in Darksaber as Dorsk 81 is preparing to push Daala's fleet away from Yavin IV. Granted, that killed him... but it also has him making a mental exertion to the breaking point of his mind. I don't think it should be like that at all. Not when Obi-Wan tells Luke to let go his conscious self in ANH and Yoda says to "unlearn what you have learned." That's not just about physics, but about reality itself. It goes hand-in-hand with being luminous beings, not crude matter. Yoda's talking about Reality being much much greater than the physical world that even Luke is trying to manipulate in his mind.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:21pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Shadows of the Empire had Vader musing that although the Force did not have limits, he did.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/12 6:30pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Which everyone here has acknowledged.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 12:27pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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That all Force users have limits?
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 12:31pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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That yes, speaking practically rather than theoretically, everyone's got limits.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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I'd go so far as to say that the only Force-sensitives that no longer have limits are those that have joined with the Force ala Obi-Wan and Yoda. They've completely given up their "selves" to join the Self of the Force, so to speak. Which is why Obi-Wan tells Vader "if you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Obi-Wan ceased to be and all that was left was the Force. Vader couldn't possibly imagine that one.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Yeah. All that's being said is that it doesn't require more of the Force to lift a rock than a Star Destroyer. The difference isn't a quantitative based on physics.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 4:41pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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^Precisely. And how could it be with a mystical energy field that is literally everywhere and in everything? The Force isn't other than the rock or the ship, it's in the rock and the ship. Let alone surrounding and penetrating the ship. You wouldn't even have to pick up a ship with the Force as it's not like you have to imagine and giant Force-hand picking the stanging thing up...
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:21pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
I'd go so far as to say that the only Force-sensitives that no longer have limits are those that have joined with the Force ala Obi-Wan and Yoda. They've completely given up their "selves" to join the Self of the Force, so to speak. Which is why Obi-Wan tells Vader "if you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Obi-Wan ceased to be and all that was left was the Force. Vader couldn't possibly imagine that one.
Too bad we don't get to see them doing anything suitably unlimited with the Force, then; in fact, all we see them do is occasionally appear to Force-sensitives. If after the ANH duel Obi-Wan no longer had limits, one wonders why he didn't simply hurl the Death Star into Yavin's sun.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 5:24pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Perhaps because he's so cosmic a being he realizes the wisdom of not interfering in worldly affairs? Perhaps Force ghosts "work in mysterious ways."
And I really wish people would stop measuring power by FEATS OF STRENGTH!!!!! when clearly that's not what the Force is about or ever has been.
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