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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/13 7:00pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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What is your definition of ghost Ben's "unlimited power", then?
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:29pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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He can create a spectral mug of booze so plentiful and overflowing that even he can't down it.
Then he downs it.
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Dawud786
Registered:
Dec '06
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:24pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
What is your definition of ghost Ben's "unlimited power", then?
Maybe you didn't read my post and, more importantly, didn't read Yoda's entire conversation with Qui-Gon on Polis Massa in the ROTS novelization. In order to achieve that state of "immortality" one has to completely release the "self" in order to join with the Force. The Jedi effectively becomes no longer himself, but the Force. Obi-Wan's unlimited power, and Yoda's and Anakin's and Qui-Gon's and Arca Jeth's etc etc, is that he is no longer finite mortal being Obi-Wan Kenobi... but the Force.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:28pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Game terms aren't canon but Obi Wan has the benefit of...
1. Being unable to be killed.
2. Able to teleport anywhere in Space.
3. Being able to use his old powers.
So that's something.
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Excellence
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:23am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Here's something to discuss . . .
In Dark Lords of the Sith, Bass felt Kun-pronounced Kun calling for help. Went into deep meditation . . . Naddie reached out, pushed him away. Perhaps you could say Bass projecting himself into the ocean, the squid already in that ocean, had better vantage point to wave him out.
Was Naddie actually dead? No, he existed, that being the operative word. Quite freely too, if he could astral himself all over space; but as I theorised, was Bass himself astralling more in Naddie's domain?
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:29am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Excellence posted:
Here's something to discuss . . .
In Dark Lords of the Sith, Bass felt Kun-pronounced Kun calling for help. Went into deep meditation . . . Naddie reached out, pushed him away. Perhaps you could say Bass projecting himself into the ocean, the squid already in that ocean, had better vantage point to wave him out.
Was Naddie actually dead? No, he existed, that being the operative word. Quite freely too, if he could astral himself all over space; but as I theorised, was Bass himself astralling more in Naddie's domain?
I tend to think that every Jedi essentially taps into the Network of the Force that covers everything.
Thus, Palpatine is able to sense Luke Skywalker despite the fact that Luke is trillions of light years away.
Baas is reaching out to Kun and because Nadd is focused on Kun, he senses Baas' presence.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:46am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Dawud786 posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
What is your definition of ghost Ben's "unlimited power", then?
Maybe you didn't read my post and, more importantly, didn't read Yoda's entire conversation with Qui-Gon on Polis Massa in the ROTS novelization. In order to achieve that state of "immortality" one has to completely release the "self" in order to join with the Force. The Jedi effectively becomes no longer himself, but the Force. Obi-Wan's unlimited power, and Yoda's and Anakin's and Qui-Gon's and Arca Jeth's etc etc, is that he is no longer finite mortal being Obi-Wan Kenobi... but the Force.
A part of the Force is not the entirety of the Force.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:49am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Fortunately for him he didn't say part of the Force. All is one, and all is the Force, and so to be One with the Force, like all souls, but at the same time retain your consciousness...you're everything.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:52am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:06am (5 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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IMO: one cannot simultaneously be "everything" and also be an individual. Also, "the Force is everything" is a statement made by Vergere -- who is fallible like any other character -- and is not expressed anywhere in the films or in any OOU source that I know of. Lucas specifically said that Ben goes on as a "part of the Force".
And BTW the Force is not "one"!
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:06am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:09am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
One cannot simultaneously be "everything" and also be an individual.
Pantheism FTW. It confuses me that you're thinking in such staunchly real world terms when we're talking about the spiritual, and drawing our arguments from the beliefs that the Force was created from.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Also, "the Force is everything" is a statement made by Vergere -- who is fallible like any other character -- and is not expressed anywhere in the films or in any OOU source that I know of.
Actually, it appears to be the one thing Verger, Yoda, and Obi-Wan all agree on.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Lucas specifically said that Ben goes on as a "part of the Force".
Not incompatible.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
And BTW the Force is not "one"!
It is. As you've pointed out, Lucas trumps EU. There's the Force...and the Force has a dark side. The moon has a dark side, and the moon is one. Freud says your mind has a dark side, and yet your mind, with all its intricacies, is one. Catholics are asked to believe that God is one, but three people.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:10am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:18am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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The Force has a dark side. A part of the Force which is not equivalent to the Force.
Therefore the Force is not one.
Re: use of the word "one". Apparently everything is "one", even if it is composed of distinct elements. I'm not sure what, if anything, that means; all I know is that not everyone is a pantheist, and I don't recall Lucas being a pantheist.
>>Actually, it appears to be the one thing Verger, Yoda, and Obi-Wan all agree on.
Maybe in your mind. How can they "all agree" on it, if outside of Vergere's revisionism it is never mentioned?
>>As you've pointed out, Lucas trumps EU.
Uh... yes. How exactly does that serve your argument? 
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:17am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:19am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
A part of the Force is not the entirety of the Force.
Yet, in my view, every "part" of the Force has infinite potential.
The Force is a finite whole made up of an infinite number of "components". Each of these "components" possesses infinite potential to affect the physical world.
People have a physical limit as to what percentage of "the Whole" they can channel safely. This, however, does not matter, since an infinitismall part of the Force has the same capacity for affecting the material realm as the whole. If, and only if, you have true and absolute belief in its power.
Summoning that level of belief and even maintaining it, is an incredible mental strain. I, for example, know how the process of multiplication works... but I would have much more difficulty working out 929482948 x 24829481 in my head than 5 x 5.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
The Force has a dark side. A part of the Force which is not equivalent to the Force.
Therefore the Force is not one.
I have an arm. A part of my entire body that is not equivalent to my entire body.
My entire body is not one?
That people can distinguish parts from a whole does not make something any less holistic.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:20am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:22am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The Force has a dark side. A part of the Force which is not equivalent to the Force.
Therefore the Force is not one.
Ahem. Allow me to reiterate:
BobaMatt posted:
There's the Force...and the Force has a dark side. The moon has a dark side, and the moon is one. Freud says your mind has a dark side, and yet your mind, with all its intricacies, is one. Catholics are asked to believe that God is one, but three people.
So...I addressed that already.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Re: use of the word "one". Apparently everything is "one", even if it is composed of distinct elements. I'm not sure what, if anything, that means; all I know is that not everyone is a pantheist, and I don't recall Lucas being a pantheist.
No, and he's not a Buddhist or a Taoist either. Notwithstanding, the Force and the Jedi are largely based on Eastern philosophy. I'll reiterate again:
BobaMatt posted:
It confuses me that you're thinking in such staunchly real world terms when we're talking about the spiritual, and drawing our arguments from the beliefs that the Force was created from.
And also this again, so that maybe it'll be closer to home:
BobaMatt posted:
Catholics are asked to believe that God is one, but three people.
An inability to understand something doesn't make it less true for others.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
Maybe in your mind. How can they "all agree" on it, if outside of Vergere's revisionism it is never mentioned?
Not sure what you're talking about. Yoda and Obi-Wan talk about the Force being in and around everything all the time.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:21am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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>>Yet, in my view, every "part" of the Force has infinite potential.
So? That's a different debate.
The point is that a part of the Force is not equivalent to the whole of the Force.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:22am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:24am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
So? That's a different debate.
Yes, my apologies. I was only skimming to start.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
The point is that a part of the Force is not equivalent to the whole of the Force.
Such a point is irrelevant in regards to the Force being one.
BobaMatt isn't suggesting that the dark side is the entirety of the Force. That's not necessary for the Force to be One.
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