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Topic:
Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:23am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
The point is that a part of the Force is not equivalent to the whole of the Force.
Sure, but the movies themselves say that spirits become "One with the Force." So...lose.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:27am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:32am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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BobaMatt posted:
An inability to understand something doesn't make it less true for some people.
Really? The devil you say! 
So let me get this straight -- because real-world religious dogma does not make logical sense, any two concepts in Star Wars are automatically interchangable?
Is that the "out" of the millennium or what? 
BobaMatt posted:
Not sure what you're talking about. Yoda and Obi-Wan talk about the Force being in and around everything all the time.
And from that you're getting "the Force is everything". Strange.
What is the definition of "is"?
(Also, two times in the entire saga does not really amount to "all the time", just to nitpick.)
BobaMatt posted:
Sure, but the movies themselves say that spirits become "One with the Force."
Really? Got an Episode number and DVD chapter reference to back that up?
Or is this yet another example of EU material being sold as "evidence from the films"?
(HINT: I know the answer to the above question.)
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:31am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
BobaMatt posted:
An inability to understand something doesn't make it less true for some people.
Really? The devil you say!
So let me get this straight -- because real-world religious dogma does not make logical sense, any two concepts in Star Wars are automatically interchangable?
Is that the "out" of the millennium or what?
...No...What are you talking about? Stop straw-manning, it's unbecoming.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
BobaMatt posted:
Not sure what you're talking about. Yoda and Obi-Wan talk about the Force being in and around everything all the time.
And from that you're getting "the Force is everything".
Combined with the prequels' additions that, upon death, everything "becomes One with the Force," by "returning to the Force"...yes.
Arawn_Fenn posted:
(Also, two times in the entire saga does not really amount to "all the time", just to nitpick.)
Okay, fine. Change "all the time" to "every time the nature of the Force is addressed in relation to the physical world."
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:36am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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>>Combined with the prequels' additions that, upon death, everything "becomes One with the Force," by "returning to the Force"...yes.
Once again: you're making that up. The prequels actually never use the phrase "one with the Force". That's the actual films I'm talking about here, not EU. Still waiting for that prequel chapter reference. 
And in fact you may be confusing Force ghosts with regular non-FS deaths!
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
"I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude." - Kirk Lazarus
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:39am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:42am (4 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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You're right, it only appears in cut sections of the screenplays. Notwithstanding, the fact that it's used again and again, written into all three of the prequel scripts and never changed in wording, is a window into authorial intent - it's cut because it doesn't find a place in the finished film, not because it's not accurate.
Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he'll be able to retain his body and consciousness when he becomes one with the Force. Returning to the Force, however, is included in RotS.
And...you're in lit, so EU counts.
But I'll take the lack of clarification on the "out of the millennium" bit as an admission that you were straw-manning my argument. 
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The Clone Wars is OT quality good. Really. Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds. As Father and Son (An AU RP) - Looking for a few good replacements...see profile for info. http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:42am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:44am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Oddly, Qui-Gon fails to mention "You will actually be the Force".
I guess it's just too much of a head trip to lay on poor old Yoda.
>>But I'll take the lack of clarification on the "out of the millennium" bit as an admission that you were straw-manning my argument.
It should require no clarification. Saying that "Catholics believe in indefensible positions" does not strike me as a particularly good argument regarding Star Wars.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
"I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude." - Kirk Lazarus
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:43am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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He doesn't have to, because he already says that you'll be one with it.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:48am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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It's odd how these things are always left out... Yoda doesn't mention it either.
In fact he says that Qui-Gon has returned from the netherworld of the Force.
Now, assuming that Qui-Gon actually is the Force at this point, that statement should read:
1) Qui-Gon has returned from the netherworld of Qui-Gon.
OR:
2) The Force has returned from the netherworld of the Force.
If you're OK with either of the above, that's great. If, however, you see that they don't work, then it becomes clear that Yoda's statement draws a distinction between Qui-Gon and the Force.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
"I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude." - Kirk Lazarus
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:51am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Which is a problem we've already addressed in the question of becoming one with something while maintaining your identity.
You don't have to accept the Eastern religious origins of the Force, but it sure does make things easier to understand when taking canon as a whole.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:55am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
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The "authorial intent" from ROTS is clear: Qui-Gon is not the Force. He is never referred to as such by Lucas.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:56am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:57am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Trees for the forest.
Qui-Gon is one with the Force while maintaining his identity, and Force ghosts are more powerful than you can possibly imagine. You seem more interested in tearing apart internal consistency than with allowing it to work.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:57am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 11:58am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Right, I'm getting confused as to what's being argued.
Matt, are you saying that Qui-Gon Jinn is the entirety of the Force? Because that's clearly what Arawn thinks you mean.
I would hold that Qui-Gon's "self/conscious" is merely a new "component" of the Force. It is entirely of the Force, but it is not the Force in its entirety. Of course, that doesn't mean his power is limited in any way, because I've already stated that I believe the smallest fraction of the Force to have infinite power and potential.
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BobaMatt
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:58am
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 12:05pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
BobaMatt
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Qui-Gon, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are all avatars of the Force, in a pantheist sense, somewhere between Boddhisattvas and Hindu gods. They cease to be beings sensitive to the Force and level up to become beings OF the Force.
Edit: So yes, Uli, I agree with your edit, for the most part.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/15 12:43pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 12:48pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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Ulicus posted:
Matt, are you saying that Qui-Gon Jinn is the entirety of the Force? Because that's clearly what Arawn thinks you mean.
I would hold that Qui-Gon's "self/conscious" is merely a new "component" of the Force. It is entirely of the Force, but it is not the Force in its entirety.
Hence my previous question: what is the definition of "is"?
If you say both "Qui-Gon is the Force" and "the Force is one", do these statements not imply that Qui-Gon is the entirety of the Force?
I still like the idea that Qui-Gon has returned from the netherworld of Qui-Gon... I mean, I like it because it sounds funny.
BobaMatt posted:
You seem more interested in tearing apart oversimplifications than with allowing them to "work".
Fixed.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
"I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude." - Kirk Lazarus
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 12:46pm
Subject:
RE: Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell
- Date Edited:
5/15 12:47pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ulicus
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
If you say both "Qui-Gon is the Force" and "the Force is one", do these statements not imply that Qui-Gon is the entirety of the Force?
But it's not "Qui-Gon is the Force"... so much as "Qui-Gon is of the Force", right?
Like... he is fully made up of the Force, but the Force is not fully made up of him.
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